--------------------


I have earned the right to fly classic pattern ARFs if I choose to do so. I don't need anyone elses approval. It would be nice, but it isn't mandatory.

I have built my share of Kaos, Dirty Birdy, Deception, Phoenix 8, Tiporare and many others that I have forgotten about. Being a geezer with bad diabetes and PAD, I feel that I can participate using an ARF without any apologies. Sure, I wish I could build straight enough and comfortably enough to fly my own renditions. And I'm not saying that I won't sneak in a home built here and there, but I give myself permission to fly ARFs. Everyone else should give themselves permission too. After all, that is the only permission and approval that you truly need - your own.

I had a couple of my own older pattern designs that I scratched up. I have been thinking about building those, just for hoots. Now that would really put me into the fringes of classic pattern, but it has never stopped me in the past. I doubt that it will stop me now. Arthritis and poor vision might, but not the lack of others' approval. A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do. You can come fly with me if the purists reject you. <G>

The point I was trying to make is that there are very few ARFs made of the “Classics�. If you look at the Tower website most all of the sport ARF aircraft are trainers, 3D, etc.

The “Classic� ARFs that I know are available:

Tower Kaos 40 http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXZT80&P=ML This ARF looks like a Kaos but is not a copy of the original Kaos 40 and has a larger wing span. It does fly very well and is a pretty good ARF.

The Global Kwik Fli 60 http://www.globalhobby.com/public/gallery/125822.asp This ARF has a sort of Kwik Fli look.

Great Planes Big Stik 40 and 60 http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXBMM8&P=ML This ARF has the Stik look but is not the same as the original Jenson kit. The 40 has a slightly smaller wing span and the 60 a larger wing span. It is very well done and is covered with MonoKote.

And from the very early years:

Goldberg Skylark http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXHUU0&P=0

Goldberg Senior Falcon ARF http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXHUT9&P=0

If you want to fly any of the popular “Classic� aircraft of the day like the Daddy Rabbit, Kaos 60, Phoenix X, Chaose, XLT, Dirty Birdi 60, T2A MK I, T2A MK II, T2A MK III, Tanglefoot, New Orleanian, A-6 Intruder, Equalizer, Patricia, Brushfire, EU-1A, Kwik Fli III or Tarus you would need to build them from kits that are in production. Other NOS kits can be found on ebay and plans are available for most all popular “Classic� aircraft of the day.

That’s why I say “Classic� aircraft flying is kind of an ARF free zone. Not that anyone made it that way, but by default there are few ARFs available. I don’t think there will be more ARF “Classics� available in the future and most likely there will be fewer, e.g. Lanier RC has stopped production of the Jester and the other plastic ARFs.

“Classic’ flying is much like it was when Phil Kraft and Dave Brown were winning the world championships. Manufacturers made kits of the wining aircraft and we all bought and built them because we wanted to fly like the masters. We bought the same radios they used too! Almost everyone in our club in the 70s and 80s had a competition aircraft or two and wanted what ever one was wining. Not the case now-a-days!

My workshop is beginning to look like the museum of history with a Kwik Fli III, Jester, Kaos, Cold Duck, Tiporae and a Blue Angel on the building board. What could be cooler than that!

Back in the seventies, there was a company that advertised in the back of the model mags. The ads were rather "cartoonish" in nature with a couple Mexican characters agonizing over a recent crash.......then they come across an ad for Mexi-Model....all their problems were solved.

If I recall correctly they had quite a few Almost Ready to Cover models that mimicked our most popular pattern ships. A friend of mine got one and actually the quality was quite good. I think this company later went on to produce the ARC "G-Shark" and several other sport models.

I goes to show whats happening in our hobby. Last year some old fart was telling a new guy that real modelers built thier own planes and these AFR things were crap. He went on about the poor glue and cheap wood etc. Now this old guy builds O.K. but his planes are built too heavy. He oversizes wood and adds extra supports ect. His planes fly like the bricks they are(not to mention his flying skills were much better many years ago). Anyways I have not seen this new guy this year until last week I saw him flying in a field by himself. I stopped and talked to him. He said he was sick of some old guys always telling him his planes were crap. He is going to join back up but those 3 old farts better shut up or they will be looking for a new place to fly. There are many more of us ARF guys now. I have no problem with them flying the planes they spend many hours building but that does not make them any better. It's funny that any problems at the field involve those 3 guys. Time for them to shut up or start stamp collecting. We have other senior members that would do anything to help anyone at the field. Some don't fly very well anymore but thats O.K. they are great guys and I love to spend time with them at the field. Lets face it the hobby is changing just like everything else in the world. I would rather spend $200-$300.00 on a great looking/flying ARF that I can have in the air in 10 hours than spend $400.00-$500.00 on a kit,hardware,covering.etc that needs 100+ hours to build. If I turf an ARF I can buy another and fly next week. Without ARF's 90% of our club flyers would never be at the field flying.

adaptabl, that's a shame and I'm sure there are bad apples at every club.

Although your points are all valid and good, they completely miss the point.

We build because we want to! The time and money issues are irrelevant when it comes to the things that you want to spend your time and money on.

It's hard to explain, but building is not a means to an end. Building is not simply a means of acquiring a plane to take to the field and fly. If that's all I wanted I'd by ARFs too!

Building is building. It is an activity in and of itself. Yes, it's related to flying since we fly the models we build, but it's an entire hobby on it's own, whether the planes are flown or not.

I wish I could put it in better words so that it was easier to understand. Ok, here goes:

It's like with someone who loves to cook. Sure they could just go to a restaurant and get a great meal. But that's not the point. They love to cook. It's the process of making the food that they enjoy. So, just as it is with building, it's not a means to an end. If that was the case I'd buy ARFs and cooks would simply go to restaurants.

rainedav

You made your point in the first few lines and if ARF guys don't get it, oh well.
We all know that ARF's have their place in the hobby. But I'm feel like those
old guys. I have about 8 ARF's NIB and everyone has some kind of weak
spot with them. That's why they are still NIB. If I should ever need something
quick to put together and not care about it going in a few days/weeks later, the
ARF's are always there. I rather build.

Ron

Yes, I did miss your point. Well put. My pain pill must have worn off when I wrote that response. <G>

-----------------


It has nothing to do with them being old, believe it or not. It has to do with their personalities. They were probably just as irritating to some when they were young guys. People are still people, even when they are old.

I think that every club has at least three characters that chase off new student pilots, quite unintentionally. My response to that is that if a new student pilot is chased off that easily, he/she probably wasn't a good club member candidate anyway. You simply cannot please everyone. It is a fact of life.

I was always more of a flyer than a builder. I built out of necessity. Why? Because no one else would build a straight enough model for me at a price I could afford. Otherwise, I would have given them the job. Some folks get a lot of pleasure from building. I do occasionally, but most of the time I would rather be flying or riding my motorcycle. I have a terrific shop with lots of tools, but building full time is not my thing.

Speaking of Don Brown (I hope it wasn't Dave Brown), I saw Don Brown for the first time at my first R/C club in NJ in 1970 or so. He and his teammates were putting on a demonstration of how well his new line of ARFs flew. Believe me, they flew well. I ended up flying a DB Beta for a year or so as a direct result of his demo. It was a clearly superior type of construction when compared to the Lanier rubber duckies of the day. Yes, that is just my personal opinion. Plus the Beta handled extremely well.

Let's not get a generational war going here. We need each other a great deal in order to keep our fields. Besides, I like young folks anyway, whether they build or ARF.

Artisan

I was referring to Dave Brown that won the world championships, was the prime mover at World Engines, has Dave Brown products now and has been our AMA leader for many years. I wonder if he ever gets a urge to build an Illusion and go flying?

I believe you are correct the other Brown, Don made the ARF kits.

I've been reading all these comments with divided emotions, but mostly with a sense that there are some misunderstandings out there.

When I wrote the May Model Aviation article, I made the statement that the average flight line was filled with ARFS, and maybe you could bring someting new and different to the field by flying a vintage plane, (which has already been pointed out is seldom in ARF form). You can have your own paint scheme etc etc Those statements may have "bummed out" a few people, but it was not my intention to trash ARFs--especially as trainers.

On the other hand, my primary goal of that article was to promote flying in VR/CS and SPA, and vintage pattern in particular. That's the most important thing---and building is just "icing on the cake" for thse who enjoy building. I enjoy building to a point, but since I'm kind-of a slow builder, I enjoy FINISHING AND FLYING the plane even more. It takes forever and a day to build from scratch, as I still have a full-time job, and other demands on my spare time. It would be great to have more ARFs of SPA-legal planes to choose from. I may be overly optimistic, but I really feel that as SPA grows there may be more competitive ARFs available. I have news of things to come that I can't discuss yet--but "...the times, they are a changin'"

I was glad nobody directly tied flying SPA to an attitude where "...you have to build to be accepted by those folks... Nothing could be further from the truth!! Newcomers to SPA usually fly Novice Class, and as such are NOT required to fly an SPA-legal plane--that's a very important point to make. The Javelin in particular is fast becoming a "go to" airplane for Novice class, and it flies like it's on rails. Newbies wishing to start in a higher class are required to have an SPA-legal plane, but Airborne Model's A-6 Intruder does an excellent job as a highly competitive plane. The success of several new SPA-legal kits makes building quick and relatively easy.

When it comes to offering SPA-legal ARFs, I say "God bless them"

Duane

there was a time when using iron on covering was looked at by some the way arfs are looked at now by some


build them or buy them most important is to flyem

gary

Boy, this is where RC flying, human relations and politics converge. This is the kind of thread that could go on forever. Most of the postings are a few months old, but your recent posting might kick things up again.

I'm not going to get into a sophisticatrd argument on this subject. I will only say that I think that what makes this hobby/sport great is that anyone that gets involved can chose from countless variety of options; one can choose to build or not build; one can buy $150 ARF's or $2000 "custom" ARF's. You want to design? Go ahead, Modify? Sure, why not. You can fly pattern, 3D, scale, combat, race, etc.

I know of a guy that likes to build but is not intereseted in flying. Certainly, many people are not interested in building (or maybe they just THINK they're not intereted, but might get hooked if they tried it) Some people even get around this issue by buying planes that a fellow club member built. So... who's right? who's wrong?

AND THE ANSWER IS....(drums please)......EVERYBODY IS RIGHT!

Yes. Nobody is wrong. Everybody is right!!!

You see, the beauty of this hobby is that you can do as you please.

I like to build and I like to fly. To me there's nothing like a good 70's/80's era pattern ship built and flight trimmed with fastidious care. But, have I bought and flown ARF's? You betcha. I'm just making my comeback into RC (just over a year) and if it wasn't for ARF's I still wouldn't have flown at all. ARF's do their job and for the most part, they do it well. The difference between the built and ARF's is in the details.

And classic pattern (CP) flying is my first love but... do I limit myself to just CP? No. I've tried other "branches" of RC and will continue to do so. Heck, I'm even close to trying hovering and some other 3D stuff, as I believe it will only help polish my hand/eye coordination when flying CP.

Are people who build the planes they fly purists; elitists; better than the rest? who cares... nobody should care! Nobody should look down at others because their approach to the hobby differs from their own.

So, if someone wants to compete with an ARF Kaos, I say, go ahead and enjoy! If that is what pleases you. And at the end of the day lets shug down a couple of beers and share a few stories.

-----------------


Don Brown, that made the ARF kits, was also a world level pattern competitor in the Sixties. He also sold his own radio named the Quadraplex. You haven't lived until you have seen Don tuning out the waggle of each channel with his tube analog proportional rig. <G>

I'm well aware of Dave Brown and his accomplishments. One hell of a pattern flyer and a nice guy to deal with on the phone.

--------------


Having covered more models than I can recollect with either tissue/dope or silk/dope, I feel I have earned the right to use iron coverings. Besides, after the goody-two-shoes forced the dope companies to add mustard oil for the scent to discourage huffing, I could no longer stand to use their products.

Thought that was just glue. Besides they do not presently put mustard oil in dope. You can now buy dope from Sig, Brodak, and Randolph.

I recently started using Brodak (Randolph) butyrate dope after always using Sig. Let me say, I did not know that there could be that much difference between brands. Please do yourself a favor and try some Brodak dope (which is produced for him by Randolph). I really think you'll be very impressed. I still use Sig nitrate for attaching covering. I like to leave the lid cracked to let it thicken up, then two unthinned coats is all it takes to adhere silk, tissue, etc.

My two cents worth;
I grew up with the dope and silk era, and I dont miss it at all. When Monokote came out, we all got strangled with Mom's iron cord when she pressed some slacks and found melted residue(transparant blue, chrome, whatever) left on them. I still have a Suprafly 45 arf sitting in the rafters, a great flier but what crap in terms of arf construction, you know, the foam and flypaper approach. I now fly an Excellron 90 with an OS120 two stroke in him and for the most part, he is a great ship. I used to have a chip on my shoulder with the arf guys that couldn't build, and the clone effect on the flightline, but I found that I have made some great friends with the newcomers that just assemble and fly. I'll take the guy who wants to come out and have fun anytime; in my own introspection I have found that I don't have quite the relationship with the arf that I did when I built it, hence I am a little more gutsy in the air. These arfs are making me lazy, they are pretty cool; however I have found upon fixing them for others after a crash that much more attention needs to be paid to the critical joints in the structure, ie., glue and or type of wood such as balsa spars. Sorry if I got wordy here.

I don't use dope on everything. But, there are certain types of models on which - and this is just my personal opinion - shiny plastic film simply looks wrong. On other models nothing looks better than a well done Monokote finish.

They were putting it in dope for a while too (Aerogloss) IIRC. Once I got used to using Super Monokote, I never looked back.

I enjoyed doping models as a youth, but I'm in too much of a hurry today.

------------------


I don't care if someone builds their models or buys ARFs. Truthfully, I feel that it isn't any of my business. Just as what I do isn't any of their business.

Like you, I have found friends on both sides of the imaginary line and I cherish them all.

There are a few classic models that I still enjoy building, but I mostly want to build models of my own design. If it isn't my design, or a classic, I'd just as soon buy an ARF version of it. As someone else said, this is just my opinion.

I must chime in ... could you folks beat the hell out of this dead horse a bit more? For goodness sake, it's like any life experience - relative to your interests, time, space, etc ... I fly ARFs due to my limited time and lack of building desire. I also drive cars, but I don't build them, I also live in a home, but I didn't build it! I don't give a rat's behind what the next guy flies, I like 'em all. Get over it, and someone please tell me, is there any additional ARFs that resemble the Javelin II lines? Thanks!

Gee Nitro Dew

Why don't you stop "sugar-coating" everything, and tell us what you REALLY THINK!!!

Check the Javelin web site---I believe there is a new, larger Javelin being offered.

Like I said, I was very impressed with the way the Javelin flies. It has a long tail moment, and tracks very well through maneuvers. Looks very graceful in the air. It also looks bigger in the air than it really is IMHO

I guess it's my turn to chime in.

There is nothing wrong with flying AFR's if that's is all you have time or desire for.

I got into the hobby for one reason, it wasn't to learn to fly. it wasn't to learn to build and it was to make friends. These were all bonuses. I got into the hobby for stress management. I worked a pretty high stress job in the military and I would come home ready to pull my hair out, have some dinner and watch some TV. I would go to bed and once I lied down I would spend the next hour or so in bed planning out my day to come.

I had mentioned to my wife that I had an enterest in RC and few weeks later my wife handed me a large wrapped box for my birthday. It was a telemaster 40 Kit.

Well, I found that is was impossible for me to think about work while I was building the plane. I'd spend an hour or two out in my shop building. I joined a club learned to fly and made alot of new friends. Now I spend a hour in bed thinking about planes

Soon as the Telemaster was built and flying and I was in training I started a second plane, A Sig Kouger, I still love to build, I usually have one building and one covering or painting. That way I can work on which ever one I feel like. I have to be in the right mood for covering.

Anyway, there nothing wrong with arf's but your missing out on a great part of the hobby if you don't have a project on a back burner and the satisfaction of fly something that you built is hard to express.

It's not that you 1aint welcome', it's just that you can't get them any more..
Evan

Thanks Duane - I've never been one to sugar coat ... appreciate the Javelin tip! ... on to other forums.

Rick