Gentlemen,

I'd like to throw something into the mix here. . . not sure if it'll help or just curdle the cream. . .

One "fatal flaw" that I see to both SPA and CPA are that they are both "backwards looking" organizations. The obvious implication is that you will never get the organization to grow outside of the people that were a part of and remember "the good old days".

A corollary to that thinking is that you are, by the rulebook, eliminating any future innovation by restricting the designs to a certain period of time. There are a whole slew of guys flying AMA (2 Metre) pattern that are there almost solely because they love to design, build, and produce their own unique airplanes. The AMA pattern rules not only allow this, but encourage it by giving everyone an empty 2 meter / 5kg box to put whatever you want into it. In SPA and CPA, you can only put in an airplane that was built 30 years ago. . . Look at how many posts there are here on RCU that start out - "I'd love to fly this plane at an SPA event , but it has _______". (insert "retracts", "electric", "tuned pipe", "YS engine", or whatever). I believe that you could attract new blood by allowing and encouraging new designs.

I also think that CPA / BPA has many features that have the potential to attract alot of participation. First is simplicity of the maneuver schedule. Everyone says that the big dropoff in pattern participation happened when turnaround was introduced. Hmmmmmmm. . . . as one of my favorite country songs says - "Here's you Sign". I've long been an advocate of eliminating the turn-around maneuvers in the first two classes of AMA pattern. When I have tried to demonstrate pattern to a club member, their eyes glaze over when I describe that they have to string together a center, turnaround, and then another center maneuver - any one screwed up will screw up the next. Back to boring holes in the sky for that guy - pattern is hard!! It takes alot of motivation and guidance to get your flying to a point where you can go to a contest and not: 1) crash and 2) embarrass yourself. You just have to face the facts that not every flyer has that, so you can either sit up on your high pedestal and look down your nose, or you can design an event where the average Joe can come and have a good time and not feel like he is working an extra job just to participate.

Another point about the maneuver schedule. Not everyone's airplane or ability will allow them to fly the same maneuvers as everyone else when starting out. I recommend having the first class or two where guys can pick their own maneuvers from a menu, as long as the K-Factors add up to a minimum value. That way if a guy who only has a Four-Star-Forty, or even a trainer can go thru the menu and pick out a list of maneuvers he is comfortable with and PARTICIPATE. I believe that is the key, once you get guys to a contest or two then they will start walking down the flight line to meet, shake hands, and get to know the guys flying the higher classes who can then guide them to that piped .60 w/retracts. However, you also need to make it fun for a guy who wants to just go to a couple CPA/BPA contests a year, fly his 4*40 in the lower class and just watch the higher classes (read NO MANDATORYMOVE - UPS) and do that year after year after year. . .

I'm sure some guys will think I'm trying to "dumb down" pattern. . . not in the least. As I'm sure Vince (of Slap-Chop fame) will tell you, you gotta know your market. If your product is not selling, (also known as PARTICIPATION) you gotta change the product or come up with a new one. AMA 2M pattern is the Lexus brand of R/C airplanes. While the Lexus is a very fine product, you just have to realize that your market share is never going to grow past a certain number of people who can afford, or want to afford your product. I think CPA / BPA has the potential to take the F-150 market (http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com...ks/Ford_F-150/) of the R/C airplane world if the rules are properly written. . .

Hi,

I read your post with interest. When describing SPA as a backward looking group you are exactly right. That is the whole point of the SPA. What you are describing is probably a good idea. Seems to me though that it should be pursued apart from or possibly in conjunction with SPA. SPA should be left alone "as is" at least in my opinion. It attracts a certain group of people, not all old enough to have flown back in the day. The growth of the organization has shown that Mickey had a great idea when he put it together.
My .02 cents

James Fuller

Absolutely, I never meant my post as a bash against SPA or AMA pattern. SPA is obviously an event to enshrine the past days of pattern in a well-defined bubble. Obviously they do a fine job and should keep doing what they are doing. However, I was just trying to point out that from a long-term strategic view they can expect a slow decline in numbers over the years. That is fine as long as everyone participating knows that is the plan and is happy with it.

It appears to me that the CPA has the potential to be a copy of the SPA, just using a different slice of time for the airplane and maneuver designs. If that turns out to be the case, then CPAwill suffer the same long-term fate as the SPA. Once again, if that is one of the design goals, so be it. However, I am assuming that the leadership of the CPA would like to start an organization that will grow and attract new members in the future instead of watching the numbers peak early and slowly decline over the years.

Every few months and almost every issue of the K-Factor, the subject of increasing participation comes up. Everyone has "great ideas", but in the end nothing ever really changes and NSRCA numbers remain right at 600-700 year after year after year. The definition of insanity is "doing the same thing over and over while expecting a different outcome". If after all of these years to trying "new things" (but not really), then you have to just face the fact that it ain't gonna happen and go back to your knitting.

I also agree on the fact that all these organizations, SPA, CPA, BPA, VR/CS (where I belong) look to the past. This is THEIR OWN reason to exist. We celebrate the past. We remember the past. I fly a Kraft Bar Fly with an ENYA 60 and a Kraft AM radio. But this doesn't mean that we ignore 2.4 radios, for instance.
Anyway, probably it might be nice if we could put down some very broad and lose rules to allow people to get their feet wet in a "Pattern" competition. The basic rule should be: HAVE FUN! Anybody willing to write down something?
Thanks
Beppe

I too enjoyed your post. The SPA is a great organization and doing a good job of presenting a relatively low cost form of competition. Though some of the maneuvers are difficult with the planes allowed to fly, the are not out of reason for most flyers. It is a great place for those interested in aerobatics to get thier feet wet. If in the future they want to move into AMA Pattern they can do it with ease. I have never understood why the NSRCA does not see this as a great recruiting tool for thier programs. But much like the SPA, they do little in actively recruiting in the lower classes. the SPA is a little better at this, but could certainly do better. It doesnt take a 3 or 4 thousand dollar plane to compete in AMA pattern, particularly in the lower two classes.
Your idea has merit, but it also would have to have a box of some kind, or you are doomed to repeat history. eg., I asked an IMAC pilot what it would take to get into competition, his answert was, welllllll, you could begin with a 1/4 scale, but you will never score unless you have a 40% plane. Here comes history!

This is the classic pattern forum. This forum as well as the BPA is about planes that were designed years ago. New designs are not welcome here. There is the main pattern forum. Perhaps you need to go change the AMA pattern rules instead.

Sport Pilot,

I respectfully disagree with you. One possibility that has arisen in the discussions leading up to the formation of the CPA is the possibility of emphasizing "one maneuver per pass" style pattern with less emphasis on aircraft design. Certainly, this style of pattern will favor the classic designs, as this is what they were designed to do. Disallowing new designs and therefore innovation is short sighted. Also, the forum name is "classic pattern" and not "classic pattern airplane designs". I believe that "one maneuver per pass" style of pattern flying certainly fits within the definition of "classic pattern" in it's broader sense. I encourage you to expand your horizons and embrace the broader possibilities for classic pattern. Greater opportunities for participation means strength in numbers, my friend.

Best regards,
Robert

If you have a new design then it is no longer a classic but a new design. Now perhaps you mean't modifications to existing designs?

But even then it would not be classic pattern. Classic hot rod pattern perhaps. If you like that then start your own group. SPA and CPA don't have to conform.

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So. . . . does this line of thinking tend to increase or decrease participation? Is increasing participation even a goal?
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This is what I'm trying to get at. Can the rules be written such that all of the "classic" designs work well, while at the same time encouraging innovation of new designs so as to continually attract new blood to the sport?
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"CPA?" Dang it! Did I miss something?

New to me too... I'm guessing "California Pattern Association"?

ChiefK

I think its Classic Pattern Assiciation, personally I would like to see more BPA events in our area, as well is the AMA clases as well Keith, only way to get more people to participate is to have events, even if just a warm up or practice, so lets have one

Okay guys... CPA = Classic Pattern Association web site intro page www.classicpatternassociation.com The new site will be up shortly..

This site is to promote and organize non-turnaround style precision aerobatic competitions which reflect the celebrated pattern era from the late 1960s to the mid 1990s

Classic Pattern Association Mission Statement:

To promote and organize non-turnaround style precision aerobatic competitions which reflect the celebrated pattern era from the late 1960s to the mid 1990s.
To revitalize classic pattern sequences and aircraft designs currently relegated to obscurity while welcoming innovation and new technology.
To foster an inclusive environment with simple rules where pilot skill is the ultimate arbiter.
To facilitate the sharing of new and old ideas related to pre-turnaround pattern.
To preserve RC Precision Aerobatics' rich heritage, one maneuver at a time…

Rules are easy and the AMA has provided the rule books from 1970 - 1996 and planes will be available from several sources. Just like the BPA who we are working with and joining forces with the goal is fun !! not a bunch of rules and politics.. We are looking at having several contest with the traditional BPA event in 2010.

Yep if you want you can run retracts on pipes or not.. 4 stroke up to a 1.20 will be allowed as electric as in the 1976 rule book. you will NOT have to be a member of CPA to fly a contest unlike the SPA which you must be a paid member to fly any class above Novice.

The goal is fun with the classic planes and use current technology to fly one maneuver at a time..

if you have any questions feel free to email [email protected] Also in the website is the link for the CPA mail list !!

Also if anyone has ideas and would like to help with the group use th email address above..




s.

PS: there has been a AMA contest last 2 year in Knoxville with very little turn out.... I'm willing to travel to CD or co-cd a event find a good site and lets see what happens...

it's a new group, website and forum.

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Now that's just crazy talk. If I spent time planning, organizing, and putting on an event when would I find time to b*tch, wh*ne, and compla*n on the internet?
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I apologize to you, sir. I did not realize that YOU are in charge of the SPA AND CPA!

Why don't you show us all of YOUR classic pattern airplanes? Where is YOUR build thread?

Oh, that's right, you don't have one. Just what have you contributed to "classic pattern" anyway? Maybe YOU should start your own group- for "sport-fliers" that troll other forums with nothing positive to say.

lol..............

Here it is:

http://classicpatternassociation.com/

I guess you can shoot hole's in anything. Go to an IMAC meet, look at all the plane's on the line, etc. They all look alike. Different color scheme's, etc. Line them up, 25%, 30%, 40%, or whatever, all clone's.
Flying with the SPA guy's, I don't see anyone that want's to be on a Wheatie's box, we are just having a good time.

Dave, Chief, the CPA has been formed, still in embryo stage, there has been a lot of post's on the subject.

Crank

And realize the pattern is for a select few, ones that enjoy it and wants to improve on your flying skills, but just going to watch and be a spectator is pretty boring, its easier for clubs just to put on an average fun fly or fly in, rather than a fulll blown contest, it is a lot of work. Alot of people now thats new to the hobby and probably some thats been around for awhile has no idea what pattern is, they had rather just bore holes in the sky, which is nothing wrong with that either. Years ago I tried to promote pattern here in this area with limited sucess, but do believe if its promoted more then alot more people would show interest.

No. Just a bunch of guy's who get together and fly. I don't think many of them really expect the SPA to live much past their own lifetime.

I have admitted in past posts that I am currently not in the hobby. Possibly you have read this. However I have owned classic pattern planes and will again. I have simply said that the organizations are and should be allowed to manage there rules and events as they see fit. The SPA is about the original designs without modification, other than using modern engines, and efforts to lower cost that do little to change flying fun, such as no retracts.

Come to think of it I have a Kaos that's about 80% complete, mostly needs finishing.

BTW. Mickey Walker was one of my RC instructors. Back in 76 just before he lost his hobby shop where I bought my first RC plane, an Ugly Stick with a 60 ST Bluehead. Clay steet in Marietta was replaced with Mariatta Parkway, which went right over his old hobby shop.

Now please delete your post. It makes you look like an *****.

First of all there are NOT many SPA planes without change.. most have been stretched or made wider to work with the 4 stroke 91 engine... Also if you look at several designs in the past from the original to current they may have the same name but not the same plane... that is the SPA "DUCK" rule !! if it looks like a duck well then it is a duck..


The CPA is a NEW and growing group with many people on the mail list... I would like to say "thank you" to Crankpin for stepping up and taking care of the newsletter...we are still looking for more help and also Cd's who are willing to have a CPA contest ! The goal is not to make this a regional group like SPA in SE, but it would be great to make CPA a national group with contest all over the US.

If you have any questions feel free to email [email protected]

s.

I dropped out of the hobby about 10 years ago because the it was no longer a challenge to build and keep a plane in the air. Last Sept. I found the SPA and new life is in me! I currently have a stick with 70 Saito and an Intruder with 91 Magnum and am scratch building a Tiger Tail from Ron Chidgey's plans and cores to be 91 O.S. powered. I love the SPA and wish I had found it years ago. I thought it was boreing to do the same thing over and over again....until I tried it! VERY seldom is my last manuver JUST like the one before it, so I need to do it over and over again! Will be out there every chance I get this summer trying to make the manuvers recognizable!