And the point I was arguing was the one that is to blame is the first one thats expected to fess up
Of course, compensation is not always available but that is a totally different issue.

Happy flying,
Haldor

Don't worry, after reading this thread again, I certainly do expect the worst from many people now.

Before I fly a plane i ask myself "Self can i afford to throw $XXXX in to the air and watch it fly away??" if the answer is "NO" then i fly somthing else. You launched it you take the risk. If he dont want to pay hes not wecome to fly with me or any one else i know.

I'm confused, [] who is he ?

WOW!!! I ask my self stuff all the time- But I never get any replies!!!!!!

OK, my question is this to all those who feel that the person "responsible" for the shoot down should pay in all cases...

If I am barely able to afford the basic costs of living and marginally maintain a model to fly and I shoot down a $10K airplane which I obviously can't afford which is evident when you see my car that has rust holes all over, it's missing the hood and the muffler is about to fall off, how do you expect me to pay the $10K?

I think we're all well aware that people make mistakes. We also know that most clubs are very casual. We also know that the cost of the average RC plane in the air is probably less than $500.00 completed and ready to fly.

Not necessarily true, but probably true is that the guy flying the $10K airplane has more expendable income than 99% of all participants in this hobby. When I drive I drive like everyone else wants to kill me personally. I have never been in an accident.

If I had an Indy car you would not see me driving it on the road with the average person knowing that he could probably not afford to replace my car. I don't care whose fault it is. I don't want my car destroyed.

The same goes for my models. If I spent a year building a model, which I do sometimes, I don't fly it when the known yahoos are at the field. It won't matter to me if I can blame him for destroying my plane. What matters is that a year's work is destroyed and no court in the world is going to compensate me for my time. The materials in the plane are probably about $500.00 and I'd be lucky to get that.

Everybody here seems to think it's all about money. There's not one guy in my club who can build to my standards and therefore nobody can replace one of my planes.

It's my responsibility to protect myself.

All of this is going on the assumption that it was a true accident. If the guy walked over to my plane and jumped on it or I knew for a fact he deliberately shot me down, I'd want blood, but that's as far as it would go. I still doubt I'd get anything.

I can tell you right now that if I shoot down a guy's $10K airplane he'll never see the money. I would offer to pay what I could afford and I would offer to do some work for him. That's what I can do.

My suggestion is to look at the average member of your club and try to make a determination of what they could compensate you. Then weigh the risk of bringing your plane out. If you're willing to take the risk then take responsibility for taking it.

Well written CafeenMan. [sm=thumbup.gif]

The question is, if you turn on your radio while someone else has the pin, are you responsible for their plane. Not are you responsible if the plane doesn't cost over $400 or are you only responsible if you do it on purpose or...... If you are at fault, you are responsible for the other persons property if you cause damage to it. As far as the replacement cost, that's between them and you. Most people are very reasonable if the person admits they made a mistake and are willing to try and fix it!!! Once again, if i see a jet flying i know that he's only going to fly for maybe 7 minutes. Instead of taking a chance, I'll just wait a couple of minutes until he's landed then I'll go ahead and fly. That's using a little common sense. If there's a Ferrari cruising down the road in front of me, I'm not going to tailgate it, I'm going to give it plenty of extra room because I know there's no way in **** that I can afford to ever replace it!! There's plenty of time for everyone to fly and enjoy their hobby!!!

Of course you are responsible I never argued this point from the beginning of the post.


If every body thinks the way you do then there wouldn't be a reason for this post. But knowing every body doesn't think like you this where the 10k jet flyers responsibility should kick in .....



I wouldn't tailgate a junker never mind a Farrari. Besides I work in NYC often and I almost never see a Farrari cruising any where. Would you like to guess why ?

This is important because it establishes fault! If you're at fault then you're responsible for the consequences!!

Several times I've heard that 'you shouldn't fly if your not prepared to loose it', well this is true and even by these standards, you shouldn't fly if you're not prepared for the consequences, whether that is loosing your plane or fixing someone elses!!!

It's simple. If you shoot somone down, it's your fault. If it's your fault then it's your responsiblity to make it work it out with the other person whether it's a $35 park flier or a $8000 jet. It's the principle, not the price!! Are you respectible enough to do the right thing?

As far as the jet fliers being responsible. If they fly with you they take the same responsibility as you. They shoot you down, they work it out with you!! Fair is fair or is there an extra set of rules for those people that shouldn't be held to the ama/club rules?

PS, I find this very interesting.....

remember- LABELS ARE BAD..... such as

Your assumption of jet flyers is overstate - wrong - and dividing. It is know wonder this discussion has carried on so long. I AM POOR therefore I should not be held fully accountable for my actions- That is ludicrous...

Just because you cause damage by accident does not release you from liability- You may not be able to afford 10,000 up front. But I bet you could pay $6.00 every week for 1666 weeks..... Never underestimate the court systems- BESIDES if you are correct the Jet guy can afford to sue you and has the money to do it!!!!

Just a reminder to not make blanket assumptions- THEY ARE BAD...

My assumption??? I never mentioned "jets". Why do you "assume" I'm talking about jets. If I spent a year building a model I would value it at far higher than a mere $10K. Are you going to pay me $20K for my time even though materials "only" cost $500.00??? I doubt it.

You shouldn't make blanket statements and assumptions. I might not be able to afford to pay $6.00 a week. Maybe I can afford to pay $1.00 a month for 10,000 months. If that would make what you assume to be a jet guy happy then fine.

Does not matter what makes the "assumed" jet pilot happy, it is what makes the court happy (if you are liable and you get sued and loose, you will get a judgement)...if you can only pay a buck that will be it...something tells me you could pay a bit more...who pays for the electricity for the computer you are typing on now?

Matt,

In a phase who cares You've made your point over and over everyone understands, however the operative word in your statement is "if" Take from someone thats learned the hardway even with a judgement you still may come out on the short end of the stick.

Its too bad people are zeoring in consequence and ignoring the cause. BTW is your SS radio ready yet?

For the other in this thread myself and others have said this many times the issue is limiting liability exposure (i.e. monetory outlay)
Fix these issues and shootdowns become nothing more then an excuse for a new plane for all parties concerned

Apparently not (read some of the latest posts)

Please don't shoot the messenger, sometimes I know the truth hurts []


Mine is fine for me, but no worries for everyone else, Hitec has one coming [sm=bananahead.gif]

EXACTLY!!!! Who cares if you grab your pin any more if there's very little or even no consequence. Heck, why is it even in the rules to grab your pin? It's not just a matter of shooting someone down, it's a matter of safety. The plane, jet, heli could end up anywhere. If someone gets hurt, is there a limit to that liability? NO!!!!! I think you should petition congress to set some liabilities there. Have everyone that gets a drivers license sign a waiver that they can never expect more than $500 compensation for any type of injury inflicted upon them!!!!!!

Jon,

Check your medication dosage.

Limiting liability doesn't correlate to anything in your last post. PS AMA insurance and or homeowners covers liability for injury/property damage at AMA chartered clubs. This thread is about limiting the liability that arises from being responsible for destroying a multi-thousand dollar model. Go peddle your safety sermon in the AMA forum

You need a reality check!! There's no limit. You're the one peddling your liability issue/shouldn't be responsible for the whole amount!!!

LOL , wow I can feel the heat [:@].

Let me start by saying don't fear inviting me to your club, because my radio isn't capable of shooting down any one. Its called a scanner.

Secondly if I owe you I will try my darnest to repay you , just that simple.

Thirdly I don't represent every body as far as repaying you . So be responsible and choose to fly with people you can trust to fly around especially with a plane that could be used as a down payment on a house.

mr_matt - I'm not arguing the point that people should take responsibility for their actions. Some people do and some people don't. Then there are those who do the best they can within reason.

From a different perspective, let's say I make $15K/year salary. You make $200K yearly a dollar at time as a Chipendale. I fly a $300 plane and you fly a $10K plane.

One week you shoot me down accidentally. You take responsibility, apologize and hand me over a check for $500.00 just because you feel so gosh darn bad that you think you should go above and beyond.

A month later I show up with my brand new $350 plane (I used the other $150.00 to buy something nice for my wife - thanks ). Sometime later in the day I turn on my transmitter to adjust something and totally forgot to get the pin. Oops. There goes your $10K plane. I know this sounds sarcastic, but for the sake of argument, it was truly an accident. I felt you more than made up for what you did and don't harbor any ill-will towards you.

So now I feel really guilty, but your plane amounts to half a year's salary for me. That's a huge debt I just incurred and will be a much greater financial hardship to me than it was for you when you shot me down. Obviously I can't write you a check.

Now, if I hadn't accepted your check would we be even? After all we both made the same mistake.

Let's say I can pay you $50/month or maybe even $100/month. Be honest now. Would you demand that and feel satisfied? At that rate it would take more than 8 years to pay for your plane. And with my low income, anything that happens to me means I'll miss payments. For example, I get a flat tire or my car breaks down. I lose my job or maybe I just get sick and incur a $20K hospital bill.

I honestly don't know what the courts would do. Our legal system is insanely inconsistent when it comes to what they consider "fair" compensation. To be honest, I don't really care what they decide anyway. If the person who is suing for compensation isn't happy with the judgement then what's the point?

Going back to my previous post. If I spent a year building a model that the court decides is "worth" $500.00 then I'll feel screwed. I think I should be compensated a year's salary assuming the year I spent building the model was about the same number of hours I'd spend at work in a year.

Taking that one step farther, if I make the same $200K that you make would you feel it was right to pay $200K for a mistake that destroyed my toy?

At what point is it too much? If I could somehow build a model worth $2 mil, would you feel you had to pay for it over a simple mistake? Would you actually attempt to do it?

Do we need clubs to cap how expensive of an airplane you can bring to the field? We can have a ghetto club and Jet Set club and all types of clubs in between. That would be maybe a half dozen income level based clubs per region.

My whole point to all of this isn't that a person shouldn't be responsible, but a true mistake shouldn't ruin someone's life or bring undue hardship either. That's unreasonable.

Everybody on the side of flying very expensive models where you feel you have the right to , I am desperitely awiating to read your answer to you making a mistake and shooting down a million dollar aircraft.
Remember your answer can't be why would somebody fly that expensive plane at a club .

P.S. good points CafeenMan

Just for clarity, this is the topic of this thread even though it has gone in many directions!!

I asked our club Pres what happens if you have the pin and someone turns their radio no and destroys yours. I was told that the person who made the mistake is required to replace the destroyed model or come to an agreement about the replacement with the owner.

Why should the person be limited by what you can afford to replace. Why should everyone be limited by what the poorest person in the club can afford? Say that the most you can afford to replace is $400 then everyone should be limited to that per your argument. What i want to know is why in the world would you even think of getting your radio out of impound, or even out of your vehicle when you knew that a $2 million dollar plane was getting ready to fly? The double standard is hilarious, everyone LOVES to see the big 3d plane, the nice warbird and the fast jet, but God forbid if i happen to damage one and have to pay for my mistake. When one comes to the field, everyone knows it and always watches in anticipation of seeing it fly. Why would you want to take a chance and fly at the same time if you knew that replacement was such a soft spot? It's only 7 minutes of the day that you have to wait to fly....... Also, you're going on the assumption that the person with the $2 million dollar plane has much more income where that came from. What if that person scrimped and saved, bought and sold over many years and everything that they had was in that 1 plane (much like your $350 dollar trainer). Then, thru someones negligence, mistake or whatever all of that was destroyed. Is it fair to ask them just to walk away with $350 or $500 and say 'that's all that i feel i owe you. After all, you really shouldn't have been flying that nice of a plane if you didn't want to loose it!!

Answer the question , "would you make good on a MILLION DOLLAR AIRPLANE ? I am so curious to hear your response to this. Your grand kids grand kids will be paying this dude forever, or if he sues you for your house I guess you will have give it to him . Please give us an answer to such a dilima.

Would you? I'd be smart enough not to take my radio out of my car so i wouldn't have to!!!! That's what I've been saying.