Flexserve

Ok, I already own the plane.. So what is the FINAL easy shopping list for those of us who DO NOT want to re-purchase the plane from bananahobby or want to spend tons of shop hours "making" peices fit. I would appreciate this as there is so much talk about different batteries and motor configs here. Just need the newbs guide. Sorry, but I just want a plane that flies..I dont need a SUPER performer, just has to fly with some authority.

Thank you X10! This has been an informative thread..just WAY too much reading to find the final outcome ...or I just missed it somewhere back there!


Already Done:
+ Lipo pack upgrade (Made adapter to fit standard plug and brushed ESC)
++Switched to Futaba Micro radio system for 72 Mhz upgrade (Had "jitter" issue when tx pointed directly at plane..personally couldn't see how ANYONE would be comfortable with that in air!)

(Working on steering mod like the one shown here and would like to swap soft wire gear out with piano grade.. anyone know of good ones?)

TWD

Hi All,

I am here to tell you! You are all right!! This bird will not fly stock! I cut in some cooling vents by using a light piece of flagpole aluminum. I cut a hole in the nose and made it look like the gun that is in the full scale. I cut a hole behind the wing in the fuse and this allowed for some airflow to help cool things down.

I had all the same problems everyone else has had. No power, vibrations, motor over heating, and a Nimh battery that you could fry and egg on after running time. toni51! listen to these guys, they won't lead you astray!

TWD

aginzu

RysiuM's post at this location has all the details:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=7391788

RysiuM

My Feedback: (1)

There are some questions I received via PM and my answers, that I think might be useful for other readers too.

Q: I recently bought the Guanli A10 ... and I would like to do the brushless conversion....
I went through your shopping list and I wondered if the 4040 engines fit the original rotors? It ''s nearly impossible to find a hub set and a vendor who will ship this to the Netherlands, mostly USA or Canada posting service only (bp hobbies).


A: Forget about original rotors. First of all, it is impossible to remove them from the original engine shaft (I was not able to). You need to find 55mm DF replacement rotor. GWS will fit 2mm shaft. Both engines 4040 and 4400 have 2mm shaft, so they will fit. I think 4040 will be better for 3sLiPo use - 4400 is probably to hot. I'm not sure if 4400 will work well with 2s LiPo (I still didn't try this yet).

If you can't find GWS parts you my spend few bucks more and get the whole unit from Hobby City for about 12 dollars.


Q: Another thing I would like to ask is how do you connect all the ESC and engine wires. Because a lot of parts were on back order at HobbyCity I put together this to get list to do the BLC:

2x TR_P25A - TURNIGY Plush 25amp Speed Controller
2x TR_PC - TURNIGY BESC Programming Card
2x HXT2435-4400 - HXT 2435 (370S) 4400kv Brushless Inrunner
MDSD-4 - Turnigy Li-Po Po wer Indicator 3S & 4S

Haven't figured out what batteries to use yet. 2x 1000mah 3sp1 25C ????

A: As for wiring it is simpler than you think ;-))) Each ESC is connected to it's BL motor. Radio wire from both ESC are connected via Y-connector. Both power wires (going to battery) are connected together (plus with plus, minus with minus).
I don't know jet what battery to recommend (other than 2s A123) as I'm still waiting for delivery from HC.


Q: I always thought it would be best to put in 2 batteries (option 1 in the diagram) but reading your suggestions it seems there is only one battery needed (option 2 in the diagram) since you are connecting the red and the black wires from the ESC's.

A: With the first diagram (two batteries) there my be only one problem. Some BEC (voltage regulators in ESC) don't like to be powered from the "other end". And this will happen in the first diagram. When you connect the first battery the first ESC will power the second ESC via radio Y-cable. This might blow up BEC in the second ESC.

The second diagram will prevent from doing that. Both BECs will work in parallel powered at the same time. For additional safety you may unplug the red wire going from one ESC to the Y connector. This way you will disable this BEC on this ESC. But I don't think it is needed for Turningy ESC. They can work parallel.

Q: Thinking I would need to batteries (which seems to be a bad idea after reading your last mail) I had already ordered 2 Rhino 1050mAh 3S 11.1v 20C Lipoly Packs. Is there a way I could use them? I made a third diagram, could it work?

A: I'm sure you can use these batteries - the safest way would be to connect one battery to each ESC and removing the red wire from on of ESC going to Y-cable. The only drawback is that you have to remember when connecting battery to ESC to connect the battery with the ESC with the red wire connected before connecting the battery with the ESC, that has red wire removed. It is not a big deal. In example you remove the red wire from the ESC that is connecting to the front battery, then yo always connect the back battery first and then the front battery. Disconnecting (after the flight) will be in reverse order.

The reason you can not connect batteries together (option 3) is, that if two batteries are not charged to the same voltage there might be a little "spark" at the connection time. But the biggest problem will be when one cell would fail during the flight. Then the "good" battery pack would "charge" the bad cell and this would probably end with on-board fire.

tony51

OK, after my unsatisfactory experience to date with this Guanli A-10, and after reading the many comments and recommendations found in this forum, I have ordered the components (listed by Rysium) to convert to brushless.

Perhaps I should have known that this $95 plane would be at best a marginal purchase. Well, that's the way it goes. At least I'll have an interesting "project", and that's not bad. Anyone know where I can buy a replacement decal set if I decide to repaint it?

Incidentally, I notice that HobbyCity offers a brushless RTF A-10 for $139. Whether it's any good I have no idea.

C'est la vie.

shschon

My Feedback: (4)

The simplest way to wire up a twin brushless is to use TWO RECEIVERS and Two batteries. The two receivers would be on the same frequency and same shift or be bound to the same TX in case of 2.4Ghz system. Connect each motor to each ESC and ESC to each receiver. Split the servo load evenly between the two receivers, with each servo still plugged into the respective numbered channels.

This way you put both built-in BECs in the two ESCs to work without any complication of the two BECs being connected together. This would also make cleaner wiring for twin boom planes like P-38, C-119, etc.

As with any twin setup you want to keep a good margin of safety by throttle management and timer to prevent the situation of any one of the battery gets depleted. Otherwise the twin RX system is the easiest and safest solution.

Flexserve

Thanks for the responses! I seem to be in line with one of RysiuM's configurations already. I am helping prototype a brushless conversion for NitroPlanes (see support thread, we already reached an agreement with John) and it should (by all intents and purposes) blow away the bananahobby a-10 conversion. Seems there is a wholesaler out there making the brushless version for these hobby shops. Hobbycity is using an "unknown" motor type because they are ordering it directly from manufactuerer and have no idea what is in it. I wonder if bannana is using the same wholesaler but ordering different colors? Just seems kinda funny that both appeared almost the same time and both versions use the STOCK fans.

RysiuM

My Feedback: (1)

I suspect that there is no "manufacturer" per say out there. I looks like one guy is putting together parts from other guys. The BL A-10 in HC looks exactly like the A-10 from Nitro, just different internal parts. From pictures what I can see there are the following parts:
- ARF plane is the same (foam-wood and hardware) including the same solution for nose steering
- Servos are black (my were green) so I'm not sure about the quality
- ESC are wired for one battery and Y for throttle channel
- Motors are 20mm can (I used 24mm can), and connecting wires look horrible - I don't think these motors are god quality.
- Battery Lipo unknown rating and brand with wall charger

Anyway the difference between Nitro version (brushed RTF) and HobbyCity (brushless Rx-ready) is about 35 dollars. What you got for that money is:

- 1500mAh 3s LiPo battery (value of 15 dollars)
- wall charger for LiPo (unknown value)
- two ESC 25A (about 20 dollars value total)
- two BL motors unknown brand and type (I guess something between 20 and 30 dollars value total)

You will not get:
- 27mHz Tx and Rx (useless for that plane anyway)
- 2 brushed 370 motors (useless when BL systems are so cheap now)
- brushed ESC (value of 5 dollars on e-bay maybe)
- wall charger for NiMh (unknown value)

Having this calculation in place it is an easy comparison: BL version from HC is much better value than brushed stuff from Nitro and Banana. The only thing bad (for us in USA) is the shipping cost from HC is over 30 dollars for this box.

I hope they use better hub, the kind of like GWS that you can easy replace the motor if you need. In Nitro Guanli if brushed burns out (I should say rather "when" instead of "if") the hub and rotor goes to the trash can together with the motor as it is impossible to remove the hub from the motor shaft. And when the rotor brakes (for example by digesting a small stick from the grass) I hope you can replace it with GWS one.

Flexserve

Yup. I found a solution to the 2.3 mm shaft issue (GWS part). I am waiting for the parts to be sent. Nitro has not got back to me yet with confirmation (although its only been 1 day)


I think after I test my config it'll be part of (hopefully) a Nitro Planes A-10 Performance Upgrade kit as well as an RTF or ARF. That was the original intent was to supply the customers an option with existing A-10's and new customers with an ARF or RTF brushless version.

I was hoping for maybe even creating 2 versions of the upgrade kits. One being more aggressive then the other.

I await my parts confirmation to begin work. And Yes, I plan to release video of both so that Nitro can use it.


Sorry to read about your modified video being used. Your right!!! it gave the wrong impression, even though the list of upgrades was on the screen. Youtube also loves to let anyone use their embed code to put the video on all types of sites.


Yup probably 1 guy modding.... I asked on their forums and they probably lied (as to not let you mod your own for much less then their ARF version) and said they received it this way and have no idea what motors are used. Yeah..right......

This is the same mistake Bananahobby is doing by not listing the motors for the sake of sales. Nitro appearantley has a very different stance on this.

TWD

This may or may not be the right forum? but it is about an A-10. I am going to be starting on an A-10 scratch build. I may need to purchase a canopy or have one made. Can anyone give me some ideas as to where one might locate a canopy, or have one made? The wing span on this plane will be 52" long.

Thank you,

TWD

RysiuM

My Feedback: (1)

Guys,

Finally I was able to perform static test (run on the bench) of 4040 motors powered by 3s LiPo 1500mAh (30-40C) from Hobby City. I did not measure static thrust, rpm or voltage - just battery current. I have a bad news and good news for you:

Good news: this battery fresh from the charger did not sag under quite big load. I noticed the engine rpm is much higher (it sounds like a lot higher). The sound is very uncomfortable high pitch. Almost like a turbine.

Bad news: this battery is loaded total of 40A. Right, 20A per engine. If battery survives that load, ESC and engines should to. I'm not sure about GWS fan unit - the speed is ridiculously high. My guts feeling is, that over 400W is to much power for this plane. Oops, did I say "to much power" for this "out of the box underpowered toy"? Well, when I will have a chance, I will try to fly it with this battery. It should be something.

BTW, at the same time I replaced Futaba PCM Rx with 7-channel ASSAN. So it will be double test.

aginzu

I thought mine would be overpowered too but it's not the case. I am flying mine on 400watts using the dual 1000mah battery setup and it flies well, not seeming to be overpowered. I'm using the 4400KV motors and the Zippy 1000's don't seem to be over strained either. They come out only slightly warm after a 5 minute flight. The GWS fans haven't shown any signs of problems either, but if a fan were to fail it would probably do so suddenly, without any previous signs. If you have an RPM meter of some kind it would be interesting to see how fast the fans are turning.

The excess power is needed because EDF's are a lot less efficient than propellers due to the high exhaust air velocity needed to produce enough thrust. It causes a kind of impedance mismatch so that only a fraction of the power delivered by the fans gets transferred to the airplane. My 26 oz A-10 on 400 watts (about 250 watts per pound) flies like an efficient prop plane on about 150 watts per pound.

Yours will be a little lighter than mine because your battery is a little lighter. I'm interested to hear how well it works.

Flexserve

So did anyone disable the 2nd BEC connection if using 2 batteries?? I bought the listed items and was wondering this so I dont blow the second esc up! 2 receivers sounds a little too much for 1 plane.

Using 2 batteries...Turnigy 25 A Brushless ESCs..to connect both or not to connect both (BEC) that is the question...hmmm...

aginzu

I use two TowerPro n20 Acro Brushless Speed Controllers from Hobby City, each one connected to it's own battery, with both BECs connected and it works fine. If you can safely do it or not depends on the specific speed controller and what kind of BEC circuit it uses.

Flexserve

What positions did you put the batteries so that the CG would not be waaay off? 1 front and one mid fuselage?

aginzu

Here is the photo. The CG comes out just right without any additional weights.

Flexserve

I see! This makes sense. Thanks for the photo!


Using x2 (3C) packs. Hmm I was thinking of using 2C x2

aginzu

I'm using two Zippy 1000mah (25C) 3 cell packs. I have also flown it with two ThunderPower 1320 (13C) 3 cell packs with throttle end point reduced to limit maximum current to 17 amps per pack. Both work well.

nickelbn1

My Feedback: (1)

just a simple question. Who has gotten a A10 from either Nitro planes or BananaHobby.com and it flew fine right out of the box? other then some radio glitches....And if so, how much flight time could you get out of the stock battery?

canwhitewolf

ive talked personally with the guy (mike I think)) from banana hobby and he said he "did fly it stock" but admitted it was underpowered, i suggested he up the voltage by one cell which he said he did but it didnt make a lot of difference

one can see that video and it does appear he did fly it that way buy it looked wobbly to me and underpowed, but it did fly, the take off looked like it had adequate speed for flying but nearly stalled on lift off

he is a good pilot as well, so maybe that helped do that flight

I havnt flown it but some good pilots here have and they all say it doesnt do well ( if at all ) stock out of the box

cobrajocky

Just catching up on this string.

Richard, you made a bad in your battery recommendation - (See bold above) You'll never get any brushless plane, let alone a twin EDF off the ground with a "2s A123", which only delivers 6.6v (2 x 3.3v nominal for LiFE-ON which is what the VPX batts are)

Secondly, as all the A123 Battery pros on various forum strings here will attest to and know, it takes a 4s LiFE-ON pack which is what the VPX batts are, to equal a 3s Li-PO. Each A123 cell is 3.3v - 3s = 9.9v (10.52 actual peak charge, but it drops 2.5v within seconds and stay constant, that's 8.02v (my REAL world tests). A 3s Li-PO charges to 12.30v nominally or higher in some cases depending on the brand quality. Frankly, I have no idea how you got your A-10 with twin 4040kv BL modded DF's to fly more than a couple minutes with a single 3s A123 batt. My single 14A rated 1750Kv BL engined foam FW-190 barely flew 3 minutes on a 3s VPX A123 battery before the 3s sags to a quick landing condition. Now I use a 4s VPX A123 - 13.2v nominal and 11v for a full 15 minutes plus of fast flight, no sag. Have to land just because I'm fatigued.

Still I'm more partial to A123 over Li-PO for two big reasons over the obvious safety issue of Li-PO puffing and/or blowing your model apart from over heating and that is you can't discharge a Li-PO more than 75% without damaging it internally which further curtails it's full rechargeability and that Li-PO's have documented short usable lives compared to LiFE-ON batteries. So over the long haul, LiFE-ON (A123) batteries have a much lower "cost of ownership / use" than Li-PO's.

Then there's that little thing about A123 flat voltage output at a higher current during discharge, while voltage drops on a fairly steep curve with Li-PO's.

nickelbn1

My Feedback: (1)

thanks for the info. I talked to a guy at bananahobby.com too and he said the same thing. he recommended i buy their new brushless version for $190 on preorder right now which looks to be much better. they have a video of him test flying this one as well and it looks and sounds much better. dont know if i want to spend that much on it though right now.

cobrajocky

I flew, er limped / glided along, one of our two Guana Li (guana being bat crap) once on a Electrifly 8-Cell (9.6v) 1100mAh 2/3A NiMH battery, which is much heavier then that stock one and we had to add lead in a few places to preserve CG balance. The still unacceptable "flight" and hair raising landing was the last we tried until we could figure out what to do with this Guana Li Albatross, er Goony Bird more appropriately.

With the stock battery, even after conditioning and peak charging was not enough to get the wheels off the ground, hand launching into the wind was no help and thank god my son is a great pilot to get the hand launch down safely in the "rough" weeds.

ANYONE who says they have flown this STOCK brushed Guana Li A-10 is either delusional or a bald face liar and that especially goes for the liars at NitroPlanes, RaidenTech, all their AKAs and their relative that runs BananaHobby in the same area of LA with the same area code (they are ALL related). I wouldn't trust them to make change for a dollar bill, even if YOU could put your hand in their pocket to get the exact change.

We upgraded the first A-10 almost the same as Richards original mods but 40A ESC, the second with the 4400 KV motors, 40A ESC's; but both running our own homemade 4S A123 batteries. We've never used WOT.

We also bought a Guana Li FW-190 (brushed and under powered and unable to take off) from NitroCrap; and so far we have put another $120 into it with a BL motor, acceptable servos, radio, ESC, even the servo to ailerons/rudder/elevator push rods rusted! We also fly it (very fast) with a 4s A123 batt.

Go buy a GWS, eFlight, Parkzone or ANYTHING but the crap BananaHobby and their "cousins" sell!

RysiuM

My Feedback: (1)

Sorry, my mistake (typo). I should write 3s A123 - this is the setup I flew this jet with twin EDF powered by 4040kv motors. I did not have time to go out and test my LiPo setup (working 60 hour a week [:'(])

cyclops2

I modified The GWS bird with Hyperion 5800 KV's & the smaller GWS EDF 40's with 4 B & D VPX cells.

What a joy to hand launch. ONLY deep grass landings. I skim along above the grass to stall speed and drag the tail to a stop. Not pretty ....still all the original tail with no wear or cracks.