<div style="text-align: justify">I'm new to this list and recognise that this may be old ground. If so, my apologies! But does anyone out there know how much ether is actually in Kleen Flo starting fluid? The MSDSsays that it's between 40 and 70 %, which covers a lot of ground!I know that John Deere fluid is the way to go at 80%, but can't seem to find it here in Canada - my local JD dealer sells the Kleen Flo brand instead. Is JDfluid available in Canada??

As far as the Kleen Flo starting fluid goes, it does seem to have a pretty high ether content. The best testing device by far for starting fluids iof unknown ether content is the old Drone fixed compression diesel, which is designed to run on a straight ether/mineral oil mix and will not run alt all well (or at all in some cases!) unless the ether content is right up there. Adding anything other than oil and ether really messes with the Drone. I just tested a brew of 75% Kleen Flo and 25% SAE 30 motor oil (the maker's recommended proportions) in my old faithful "flyer" second model Drone, and it started and ran perfectly, behaving exactly as if the base fuel were all ether. So the ether concentration must be prettyhigh. I tried a fuel made with Gunk Liquid Fire (60% ether) in the same engine, and it didn't work nearly as well, although it did run.

But Liquid Fire isn't all bad news! I also brewed up a half litre of regular diesel fuel using a can of Liquid Fire (about 250 ml), 110 ml of kerosene (treating the heptane content of the Gunk as kerosene equivalent), 125 ml. of castor oil and 15 ml of Amsoil cetane boost additive. In the same engine on the same props, this fuel ran as fast as my last carefully-stored comparison sample of the old Red Max blend, with just a hair more compression and a very slightly richer mixture. Cost of the half litre - about $6.75.

If Icould find out what the real ether content of Kleen Flo is, I'd try a batch using that fluid - it sure did a nice job running the Drone! But I need to know the amount of hydrocarbon to be allowed for when making up the blend.Better yet, I need to find a source of JDfluid!!

Finally, thanks to all those kind folks who put me onto Amsoil cetane boost additive as an ignition improver! Seems to work just great!

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Well the time tested method for measuring the volume of a volatile component in a product is to carefully measure out say 10 mL into some sort of graduated container and let it sit for a few days. The remainder in mL after this time multiplied by ten will be the percentage that wasn't ether. Take this from 100 and you have the original ether content.

Ray

<div style="text-align: justify">Thanks for the response, Ray! I understand the theory behind your very logical suggestion, but am wondering about the effect of volaitilty of the other components.Surely substances like heptane and naphtha are also volatile to some extent? Any volume reduction due to evaporation of those components would be attributed to ether and would thus inflate the either content measured by this approach. Any comment on this?

The advantage of the Drone testing system is that it directly assesses the behavior of the material in an engine compared with that of straight ether. Its major disadvantage is that it doesn't provide an actual figure for the ether content. I know how my test Drone runs on straight ether (I keep records), sohow it runs on the starter fluid blend gives me a pretty good idea of what we might call the "ether equivalency" of the fluid being tested.Based on Drone tests so far, Gunk Liquid Fire at a manufacturer's claimed 60% ether is marginally equivalent, while Kleen Flo is very nearly equivalent. But of course I still don't know the ether content in Kleen Flo, and the manufacturer's information is not helpful in that regard.

Anyway, I really appreciate your advice!!

Cheers,

Adrian</div>

My Drone runs fine on Eric Clutton Old English fuel.

Interesting, Jim! None of my Drones run worth a darn on "as supplied" fixed compression using conventional diesel fuel mixes! I suspect that there must be considerable variations between different examples. Of course, with a variable cpompression head you can use whatever fuel is available.

DDH,

The heptane portion in the Kleen Flo and Gunk products likely will also contribute to ignition. If you use the estimated ether % to blend by, you're probably underestimating the normal ingnitor fraction of the blends. And pershaps overestimating the power fraction (the kero).

But, as you point out, how much???

Gunk red Seal Thrust, available in the USA, has approximately 25% ether with the rest heptane. Not a good choice for a sweet running fuel. I observed much higher compression for starting, rougher running, and less reliable settings.

Glad to hear your success with at least the one Drone. I'd suggest watching the percentage of the AMSOIL DII - 15ml in a half-liter is about 3%...

Enjoy!

<div style="text-align: justify">You're absolutely right about the possibility of underestimatimng the ignitor fraction, Lou. However, the brew that I mentioned in my original post hasa theoretical ether content of 30% (allowing for the heptane fraction) which isn't excessive, especially if yourun a fair number of small diesels as I do. I'd rather have a little too much ether than too little.Anyway, that brew works very well indeed - I'm happy!

I also agree with youabout the low ether content starting fluids. They really don't work well at all - the compression requirements are pretty startling! I think you need a fluid with an ether contentof over 50% to keep the compression under control.In Canada, only Gunk Liquid Fire and (apparently) Kleen-flo meet this criterion. I also think that you do have to make some allowance for the heptane, naphtha or whatever. As you say, how much is the question ................

I found an earlier thread in this forum which discussed Amsoil cetane boostadditive in some detail., One guy tried 10% and reported very low compression settings and very smooth running. But I think that's way over the top. A lot of guys seem to use 2 1/2 %. I actually don't see a problem with 3%, but am I missing something here?

Still waiting for one of our Canadian colleagues to tellme if JD starting fluid is available in Canada! Meanwhile, I'll use Kleen-flo for Drone fixed compression fuel. I just tried a first model Drone (plain bearing) on the same stuff withequally good results. </div>

Yes point taken. Ether is extremely volatile so perhaps a much shorter time span between measurements? The method is only suitable for rough approximations at best. There are other similar techniques such as deliberately boiling off the volatiles at their individual BP. Ether boils at 34.6 C, Heptane at 98.4 C but the naphtha is the spoiler because it's a soup of hydro-carbons and ranges between 35 to 200 C. Holdimg a temperature of 34.6 and not going over 35 is a difficult thing to do with a water bath.

One solution may be to ring the company, ask to speak to a chemist in the technical support section, and explain your problem. Worked for me once with a problem with some local kero.

Ray

The MSDS for the Kleen Flo brand is as helpful as most, specifying a huge percentage range of content. And that could be a problem. Even if you do figure out what your can has in it, you don't know that the next can will be the same.

Hi Diesel Die-hard,
Where in BC do you live? Here in Abbotsford our local JD dealer does indeed carry the JDbrand 80% ether starting fluid. Quite a coincidence thatI hopped on here to read up on home brew diesel and saw your post! i picked up a 7oz. can of the stuff just today ($4.65) asI need to try mixing up some fuel for my PAW .15 control line engine. So, yep the JD fluid is available in Canada. Maybe ask your local dealer if they can bring it in for you.

Cheers
Geoff