Looking for a real FAST plane!
12-14-2009, 08:49 AM
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RE: Looking for a real FAST plane!
BreakingPoint
Quick question, what are you flying now and for how long. Sorry for asking its just so many want to go fast to soon. i have been witness to what hapenes when someone who is not ready to fly a fast mover does. Its ugly people get hurt. However if you can handle some speed a Delta or a Q500 is a great way to start. If you want to be a man try a 1/2a Pylon, build a quick shot and slap a Norvel 061 up front.
Goodluck and BE SAFE.
Quick question, what are you flying now and for how long. Sorry for asking its just so many want to go fast to soon. i have been witness to what hapenes when someone who is not ready to fly a fast mover does. Its ugly people get hurt. However if you can handle some speed a Delta or a Q500 is a great way to start. If you want to be a man try a 1/2a Pylon, build a quick shot and slap a Norvel 061 up front.
Goodluck and BE SAFE.
12-14-2009, 11:35 AM
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RE: Looking for a real FAST plane!
MJD, yes, that is the plane, I made my fins smaller. These things are basically, thin, light flying planks. My experience is limited to the Kangaroo. Another plane that shifts it, is a LR Racing Devil - one that is build light.
I agree with Iflyg450 - flight safety/flying experience is important. It is nice to fly fast but one only have to watch Youtube to see what happens when things do go wrong - and we don't see the law suits for damage and injury that is following incidents....
I agree with Iflyg450 - flight safety/flying experience is important. It is nice to fly fast but one only have to watch Youtube to see what happens when things do go wrong - and we don't see the law suits for damage and injury that is following incidents....
12-14-2009, 12:11 PM
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RE: Looking for a real FAST plane!
It is usually possible to work up to speed with the airplane somewhat gradually, though there is usually a leap of faith in there somewhere!
A West .50 powered Magnum for example, can be tamed down quite a bit with a 9-6 or 9-7 prop, the 9-6 limiting top speed to that of the pattern planes of yore, about 120, and also allowing reduced throttle flight and good strong launches.
.40 size deltas the same thing. If you are running a sport .46 that eventually might fit a 9-7 or 9-8, fit a 10-5 or 10-6 instead. You can be sensitive to the goal of running performance engines at target rpms through careful prop selection. Again, within reason, I'm not quite sure what you'd use for trim and knee-knock flights on a QM .40 for example.. but you get my drift.
A 3.5 pound plane at 150mph has the same kinetic energy as a 7.9 pound airplane at 100. That does not mean that fast airplanes are as safe as slower airplanes, but there are enough of the latter sort to be found at club fields that it is comforting to know the former examples are no more lethal than models that represent somewhere in the status quo at least. Control is another matter of course; you have to be your own judge as you progress, and fly safe. But that's always the case anyhow as complacency has no place anywhere, but esp. here as the faster you fly the faster and possibly harder you or someone else gets bit.
MJD
A West .50 powered Magnum for example, can be tamed down quite a bit with a 9-6 or 9-7 prop, the 9-6 limiting top speed to that of the pattern planes of yore, about 120, and also allowing reduced throttle flight and good strong launches.
.40 size deltas the same thing. If you are running a sport .46 that eventually might fit a 9-7 or 9-8, fit a 10-5 or 10-6 instead. You can be sensitive to the goal of running performance engines at target rpms through careful prop selection. Again, within reason, I'm not quite sure what you'd use for trim and knee-knock flights on a QM .40 for example.. but you get my drift.
A 3.5 pound plane at 150mph has the same kinetic energy as a 7.9 pound airplane at 100. That does not mean that fast airplanes are as safe as slower airplanes, but there are enough of the latter sort to be found at club fields that it is comforting to know the former examples are no more lethal than models that represent somewhere in the status quo at least. Control is another matter of course; you have to be your own judge as you progress, and fly safe. But that's always the case anyhow as complacency has no place anywhere, but esp. here as the faster you fly the faster and possibly harder you or someone else gets bit.
MJD
12-14-2009, 01:45 PM
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RE: Looking for a real FAST plane!
Breaking point,
See attached address where I'm flying a Sig Wonder with a stock standard 0.25 OS SX. This is not super extreme fast but can give a good adrenaline rush. The area is 10 miles away from anything and the course is about a mile or so. The Sig Wonder is a good stepping stone from normal flying to high speed flying. And it does not break the bank either - everything is standard off the shelf.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UvYmoMZbh0
See attached address where I'm flying a Sig Wonder with a stock standard 0.25 OS SX. This is not super extreme fast but can give a good adrenaline rush. The area is 10 miles away from anything and the course is about a mile or so. The Sig Wonder is a good stepping stone from normal flying to high speed flying. And it does not break the bank either - everything is standard off the shelf.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UvYmoMZbh0
12-14-2009, 03:30 PM
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RE: Looking for a real FAST plane!
Agree the Wonder is a good starting point low cost and easy to build. I ran a 25VF-DF what a great combo, no that much faster the the 25FX but I had the engine laying around
12-14-2009, 11:19 PM
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RE: Looking for a real FAST plane!
Wow. This is becoming a great thread. Lots of good info here. From what I’m reading here, my best bet for speed and something that still looks somewhat plane-like, I probably will focus more on these planes.
1) Q40 plane (maybe Dango Red) .. Looks like I can get one of those for around $120.. Maybe a Jet60 motor.
2) Weston Magnam.. I just watched a video of one of those things flying.. WOW!! It’s fast!! I’m a little afraid it may be difficult to find..
3) Any brand of 40 size mustang with a BIG motor, like a YS 110..
Some of you have asked what I’m flying now. I currently have a Hangar 9 PTS 40 size Mustang with a Saito 100, swinging an apc 13X11 at 9,000rpm. It’s fast. Maybe around 100, or just over that. However, it has fixed landing gear, so I’m in the process of putting retracts on it. I’m not sure if having the retracts will make a noticeable difference in speed, but I’m hoping to get another 10-20mph out of it with the gear up. I could possibly go with a bigger motor like the YS110, but I worry a little about the stress that would put on such a small airframe. Here are a few pics of my current plane.
Thanks for all the comments so far.
1) Q40 plane (maybe Dango Red) .. Looks like I can get one of those for around $120.. Maybe a Jet60 motor.
2) Weston Magnam.. I just watched a video of one of those things flying.. WOW!! It’s fast!! I’m a little afraid it may be difficult to find..
3) Any brand of 40 size mustang with a BIG motor, like a YS 110..
Some of you have asked what I’m flying now. I currently have a Hangar 9 PTS 40 size Mustang with a Saito 100, swinging an apc 13X11 at 9,000rpm. It’s fast. Maybe around 100, or just over that. However, it has fixed landing gear, so I’m in the process of putting retracts on it. I’m not sure if having the retracts will make a noticeable difference in speed, but I’m hoping to get another 10-20mph out of it with the gear up. I could possibly go with a bigger motor like the YS110, but I worry a little about the stress that would put on such a small airframe. Here are a few pics of my current plane.
Thanks for all the comments so far.
12-15-2009, 08:40 PM
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RE: Looking for a real FAST plane!
Ok, I've been doing some more research on what it takes to get in the 130-150mph range. It basically comes down to prop speed and minimal drag. The absolute maximum speed any plane can travel = (prop pitch X rpm) / 1056.. That's the maximum mph that plane will travel given zero drag.. Therefore, depending on the drag of the plane, the actual speeds will be less than the formula produces.
So here are a few calculations to ponder. No radar-gun needed for this math.
- My current Mustang, spinning 13X11 at 9K would equal a max possible speed of 94mph..
- An OS 55 spinning an 11X7 at 12K = 80mph max.
To get to 130mph you would need to spin an:
8in pitch at least 18K
Or a 9in pitch at 16K
Or a 10in pitch at 14K
Or a 11in pitch at 12.5K
Or a 12in pitch at 11.5K
Or a 13 in pitch at 10.5K..
To get to 150mph you would need to spin an:
8in pitch at least 20K
Or a 9in pitch at 18K
Or a 10in pitch at 16K
Or a 11in pitch at 15K
Or a 12in pitch at 13.5K
Or a 13 in pitch at 12.5K..
Remember, these numbers don't account for drag and prop-slip, so speeds will be less than this.
Basically, it comes down to BIGGGGGG power and little drag to get to the 150mph range. There just aren't many engines out there that have enough power to spin the necessary pitch to get to 150 mph. I'm thinking maybe a few Jett or Rossi engines. That eliminates most any four-stroke.
Once I discovered the prop-speed-math, it became apparent, there is NO way any standard sport engine is going to get you to the 150mph range, regardless of what plane its on.
So here are a few calculations to ponder. No radar-gun needed for this math.
- My current Mustang, spinning 13X11 at 9K would equal a max possible speed of 94mph..
- An OS 55 spinning an 11X7 at 12K = 80mph max.
To get to 130mph you would need to spin an:
8in pitch at least 18K
Or a 9in pitch at 16K
Or a 10in pitch at 14K
Or a 11in pitch at 12.5K
Or a 12in pitch at 11.5K
Or a 13 in pitch at 10.5K..
To get to 150mph you would need to spin an:
8in pitch at least 20K
Or a 9in pitch at 18K
Or a 10in pitch at 16K
Or a 11in pitch at 15K
Or a 12in pitch at 13.5K
Or a 13 in pitch at 12.5K..
Remember, these numbers don't account for drag and prop-slip, so speeds will be less than this.
Basically, it comes down to BIGGGGGG power and little drag to get to the 150mph range. There just aren't many engines out there that have enough power to spin the necessary pitch to get to 150 mph. I'm thinking maybe a few Jett or Rossi engines. That eliminates most any four-stroke.
Once I discovered the prop-speed-math, it became apparent, there is NO way any standard sport engine is going to get you to the 150mph range, regardless of what plane its on.
12-15-2009, 10:08 PM
#59
RE: Looking for a real FAST plane!
Once I discovered the prop-speed-math, it became apparent, there is NO way any standard sport engine is going to get you to the 150mph range, regardless of what plane its on.
No math just field experience and a radar gun. I got 154 out of a TT.46 in an F3D plane last summer. APC 9X8.
A TT.40 & 9X7 on a Viper or other Q500 ship will see real high 140s out of a narrow dive. I got 148 with mine.
12-15-2009, 11:51 PM
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RE: Looking for a real FAST plane!
Well here is the math.. There is nothing magical about it. You have a know Rpm and a known prop-pitch in inches, so the max speed is a known number.
The long math with example.
To get to 150mph on an 8in pitch prop you would have to spin it at around 20k rpms (20,000 revs per min X 8 in pitch = 160,000 inches per min).. We then multiply X 60, since there are 60 min in a hour, and we get (160,000 X 60 = 9,600,000 inches in an hour) There are 63,360 inches in a mile. So, now we divide..( 9,600,000 in per hour / 63,360 inches in a mile = 151.5 mph...
The short math is (rpm X pitch) / 1056.. Or the example from above.. (20k X 8) / 1056 = 151.5mph..
There is nothing magical about the math. You have a know rpm and known distance that prop will travel per revolution, so that equals a known speed.. You can’t tell me your car's wheels are traveling down the highway at 80mph, but somehow your car is moving at 120mph. It just aint gonna happen. At least not on this planet!!
There are plenty of other threads out there that confirm this math and that the max speed cannot be greater than the prop speed.
The long math with example.
To get to 150mph on an 8in pitch prop you would have to spin it at around 20k rpms (20,000 revs per min X 8 in pitch = 160,000 inches per min).. We then multiply X 60, since there are 60 min in a hour, and we get (160,000 X 60 = 9,600,000 inches in an hour) There are 63,360 inches in a mile. So, now we divide..( 9,600,000 in per hour / 63,360 inches in a mile = 151.5 mph...
The short math is (rpm X pitch) / 1056.. Or the example from above.. (20k X 8) / 1056 = 151.5mph..
There is nothing magical about the math. You have a know rpm and known distance that prop will travel per revolution, so that equals a known speed.. You can’t tell me your car's wheels are traveling down the highway at 80mph, but somehow your car is moving at 120mph. It just aint gonna happen. At least not on this planet!!
There are plenty of other threads out there that confirm this math and that the max speed cannot be greater than the prop speed.
12-15-2009, 11:59 PM
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RE: Looking for a real FAST plane!
Here is a little more prof of the math. Check out this site. They are calculating speed based on the same thing I mentioned above.
http://www.rcpro.org/rccalc/PitchSpeed.aspx
http://www.rcpro.org/rccalc/PitchSpeed.aspx
12-16-2009, 07:41 AM
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RE: Looking for a real FAST plane!
Dave,
Thanks for that post. I have all the numbers and have used a radar gun. They disagreed with one another. I didn't think about the rpm increase when my Webra unloaded in flight. I have seen 140s on the expensive radar gun that I fully trusted while the math said otherwise.
Wiggy
Thanks for that post. I have all the numbers and have used a radar gun. They disagreed with one another. I didn't think about the rpm increase when my Webra unloaded in flight. I have seen 140s on the expensive radar gun that I fully trusted while the math said otherwise.
Wiggy
12-16-2009, 08:10 AM
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RE: Looking for a real FAST plane!
ORIGINAL: daven
Unfortunately, prop math does not always work.
As the ground RPM rarely replicates RPM in the air.
Unfortunately, prop math does not always work.
As the ground RPM rarely replicates RPM in the air.
12-16-2009, 08:52 AM
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RE: Looking for a real FAST plane!
ORIGINAL: BreakingPoint
Ok, I've been doing some more research on what it takes to get in the 130-150mph range. It basically comes down to prop speed and minimal drag. The absolute maximum speed any plane can travel = (prop pitch X rpm) / 1056.. That's the maximum mph that plane will travel given zero drag.. Therefore, depending on the drag of the plane, the actual speeds will be less than the formula produces.
So here are a few calculations to ponder. No radar-gun needed for this math.
- My current Mustang, spinning 13X11 at 9K would equal a max possible speed of 94mph..
- An OS 55 spinning an 11X7 at 12K = 80mph max.
To get to 130mph you would need to spin an:
8in pitch at least 18K
Or a 9in pitch at 16K
Or a 10in pitch at 14K
Or a 11in pitch at 12.5K
Or a 12in pitch at 11.5K
Or a 13 in pitch at 10.5K..
To get to 150mph you would need to spin an:
8in pitch at least 20K
Or a 9in pitch at 18K
Or a 10in pitch at 16K
Or a 11in pitch at 15K
Or a 12in pitch at 13.5K
Or a 13 in pitch at 12.5K..
Remember, these numbers don't account for drag and prop-slip, so speeds will be less than this.
Basically, it comes down to BIGGGGGG power and little drag to get to the 150mph range. There just aren't many engines out there that have enough power to spin the necessary pitch to get to 150 mph. I'm thinking maybe a few Jett or Rossi engines. That eliminates most any four-stroke.
Once I discovered the prop-speed-math, it became apparent, there is NO way any standard sport engine is going to get you to the 150mph range, regardless of what plane its on.
Ok, I've been doing some more research on what it takes to get in the 130-150mph range. It basically comes down to prop speed and minimal drag. The absolute maximum speed any plane can travel = (prop pitch X rpm) / 1056.. That's the maximum mph that plane will travel given zero drag.. Therefore, depending on the drag of the plane, the actual speeds will be less than the formula produces.
So here are a few calculations to ponder. No radar-gun needed for this math.
- My current Mustang, spinning 13X11 at 9K would equal a max possible speed of 94mph..
- An OS 55 spinning an 11X7 at 12K = 80mph max.
To get to 130mph you would need to spin an:
8in pitch at least 18K
Or a 9in pitch at 16K
Or a 10in pitch at 14K
Or a 11in pitch at 12.5K
Or a 12in pitch at 11.5K
Or a 13 in pitch at 10.5K..
To get to 150mph you would need to spin an:
8in pitch at least 20K
Or a 9in pitch at 18K
Or a 10in pitch at 16K
Or a 11in pitch at 15K
Or a 12in pitch at 13.5K
Or a 13 in pitch at 12.5K..
Remember, these numbers don't account for drag and prop-slip, so speeds will be less than this.
Basically, it comes down to BIGGGGGG power and little drag to get to the 150mph range. There just aren't many engines out there that have enough power to spin the necessary pitch to get to 150 mph. I'm thinking maybe a few Jett or Rossi engines. That eliminates most any four-stroke.
Once I discovered the prop-speed-math, it became apparent, there is NO way any standard sport engine is going to get you to the 150mph range, regardless of what plane its on.
Been documented a few times and can be found in threads within this forum.
The prop does more work than you think, and different props work in different applications.
Example: Q-500 aircraft, 9x6 prop, 17,000-17,500 rpm (level flight rpm). Do the math. We know that this setup is capable of 120 mph.
And as noted, your ground rpm is just a reference. For speed you will be using some type of tuned exhaust system. The engine should be unloading in the air quite a bit beyond that.
12-16-2009, 10:59 AM
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RE: Looking for a real FAST plane!
ORIGINAL: BreakingPoint
Here is a little more prof of the math. Check out this site. They are calculating speed based on the same thing I mentioned above.
http://www.rcpro.org/rccalc/PitchSpeed.aspx
Here is a little more prof of the math. Check out this site. They are calculating speed based on the same thing I mentioned above.
http://www.rcpro.org/rccalc/PitchSpeed.aspx
Before you tell experienced fliers with field data that they are mistaken because your online calculator numbers don't agree - although you've never flown this stuff before - you need to remember the old adage "garbage in, garbage out". Prop pitch numbers are round numbers and not always that accurate. Engines gain rpm in the air, and on tuned systems this can be a healthy % above static rpm. So typing 8" pitch and 18,000 rpm into the boxes will give you a good idea of about how fast you could theoretically go if you have enough power, and that is all it tells you. There are numerous examples of tracked flights exceeding these theoretical numbers by notable amounts. The APC 10-7 prop IIRC is one that shows this frequently. Pitch speed calculators give you big picture data, the fine tuning, data gathering and real numbers come from the real world.
MJD
12-16-2009, 11:43 AM
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RE: Looking for a real FAST plane!
We race OS .46AX motors on quickie airframes and have quite a bit of data (both radar and telemetry) that show a 7 pitch prop, with a ground rpm in the low 14k's can hit 125+ in the air (straight and level).
I was a litttle suprised when I put a straight edge across that chart with these numbers and it was actually pretty close to 120 mph.
As too how much to add on, thats not easy to answer. Sometimes you would add, but in MOST cases you would subtract. There is just too many variables with motors, timing, tuning, and prop design to put it all in one formula.
I was a litttle suprised when I put a straight edge across that chart with these numbers and it was actually pretty close to 120 mph.
As too how much to add on, thats not easy to answer. Sometimes you would add, but in MOST cases you would subtract. There is just too many variables with motors, timing, tuning, and prop design to put it all in one formula.
12-16-2009, 12:27 PM
#71
RE: Looking for a real FAST plane!
The rule of thumb for control line combat was 10% unloading and figure on giving that 10% gain back due to inefficiencies...so the ground rpm was a pretty good predictor of speed in this game.
If the actual pitch is off by a decimal point after torquing the prop down, in flight stresses, who knows what, it adds up to quite a difference multiplied by 20,000.
If the actual pitch is off by a decimal point after torquing the prop down, in flight stresses, who knows what, it adds up to quite a difference multiplied by 20,000.
12-16-2009, 04:19 PM
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RE: Looking for a real FAST plane!
ORIGINAL: daven
As too how much to add on, thats not easy to answer. Sometimes you would add, but in MOST cases you would subtract. There is just too many variables with motors, timing, tuning, and prop design to put it all in one formula.
As too how much to add on, thats not easy to answer. Sometimes you would add, but in MOST cases you would subtract. There is just too many variables with motors, timing, tuning, and prop design to put it all in one formula.
All software predictions shoud automatically be assigned a tolerance of +-20% for starters, then work from there..
MJD
12-16-2009, 07:15 PM
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RE: Looking for a real FAST plane!
Good comments. I still feel that the math is correct. If however, you think that your engine is unloading in the air / or is generating more power at speed due to a tuned-pipe, etc, then you just need to account for that additional rpms in the calculation. Based on some of the numbers you guys are showing, these engines must be unloading a lot.. Like around 20% more in the air. That would definitely make up the difference in the math vs real life radar readings.
I also see a lot videos where people are taking radar reading on a plane right after a sustained dive, then leveling out the wings and saying they radared it at level flight, when the plane is still carrying A LOT of energy from the dive. That also could account for some of the difference.
I also see a lot videos where people are taking radar reading on a plane right after a sustained dive, then leveling out the wings and saying they radared it at level flight, when the plane is still carrying A LOT of energy from the dive. That also could account for some of the difference.
12-16-2009, 10:01 PM
#74
RE: Looking for a real FAST plane!
I agree about sustained energy. However we are not talking Euro Speed Cup accuracy or rules here.
Have you ever checked a prop to verify the consistancy of the prop? You would be suprised. How in the hang am I supposed to know what the engine unloads in flight? Other than Doppler or Eagle Tree this is difficult to do accurately.
It's a hobby.[8D]
Have you ever checked a prop to verify the consistancy of the prop? You would be suprised. How in the hang am I supposed to know what the engine unloads in flight? Other than Doppler or Eagle Tree this is difficult to do accurately.
It's a hobby.[8D]
12-17-2009, 11:53 AM
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RE: Looking for a real FAST plane!
Something on a different tone. I was going through Youtube clips on fast RC planes and it was quite noticeable, especially with hot planes like the Magnum and some others where the pilots mumble or say out loud "I can't see the plane, I cant' see the plane" or "I've lost the plane "(visually)......
I don't know how experienced some of these guys are but I did get the impression that some of these planes were too fast for the pilots.... At 200 mph this could be a safety disaster waiting to happen...
But then there were also guys that did some immaculate high speed flying - and a pleasure to watch.
I don't know how experienced some of these guys are but I did get the impression that some of these planes were too fast for the pilots.... At 200 mph this could be a safety disaster waiting to happen...
But then there were also guys that did some immaculate high speed flying - and a pleasure to watch.