I wonder just how far from the original post we could take this thread?

Hey I found out what this thread was originally about Now let's all play nice again.

Not yet.

Let me try to explain something in a less complicated manner, going back to where I originally started regarding DLE pricing.

If you are selling something for less that it cost you, and doing this repeatedly, you are "dumping" or using that pricing to gain an unfair advantage over the competition.

If a manufacturer places a minimum selling price on their products, prohibiting their vendors from underselling each othe,r you have one condition. But, if that manufacturer sells to a vendor where the manufacturer KNOWS there is a vehicle provided to enable that vendor to undesell the competition you have a situation called "collusion". If I was a distributor that was incurring business losses because of a manufcaturer/vendor arrangement that violated the pricing structures imposed on me by the manufacturer I would probably be visiting a good antitrust attorney to see what might be done to generate a cease and desist order against the one side I had any chance of success with. That's not the China side.

Then again, a very large vendor would likely have more than enough funds available to stall off any court actions until the smaller vendors failed due to bankruptcy induced by an active legal action and severe reductions in sales and profits because of the larger vendors actions.

That does not depict capitalism. It's an unfair business advantage entered into between a manufacturer and a vendor intended to establish a monopoly designed to generate higher profits through price fixing at higher prices later. If that's the kind of people you support in this hobby or ather areas of life I pity you, for those people are the ones truly myopic. If you can't already see the intended goal though the action of the manufacturer to cut off other independant buyers you are short sighted indeed. The evidence of a future U.S. distributorship monopoly is already in plain sight. I don't have a need to buy the cheapest engines available today. But regardless of what I do buy I will always be looking for a way to protect my [i]tomorrow[/i]. Unfortunately our economy shows the impacts of failing to consider tomorrow over the now.

I do this pretty much every morning before I get dressed ... does that mean I'm a bad Capitalist?

Geez, you guys take yourself seriously!!
C'mon, it's almost Christmas, cheer up, will'ya

I have a question concerning pricing of RC products. (or any products for that matter)
How is it that for the most part items have the same price regardless of the vendor. I thought price fixing was against the law.
My own brief research came up with the following.
The Sherman Anti-Trust Act of 1890 prohibits vertical price fixing.
The Miller-Tyndale Act 1935 and the McGuire Act 1952 exempts state fair-trade laws from the Sherman Act.
The Consumer Goods Pricing Act 1975 (backed by President Ford) puts state fair trade laws back under the Sherman Act.
It would appear to me that price fixing is against the law, am I missing something?

Better polished than the average apple by a degree of magnitude.

How does one address China?

Instead of legal analysis and manipulation I believe the consumer is in control here. Absolutly nobody is forced to purchase this product nor should anybody need to force a manufacturer to provide it at a certain price.

If you don't like the price; don't buy it. If enough folks do likewise the price will either fall to an acceptable level or the product will vanish from the market. That is true in the orient too.

The other side of this just for sake of argument is that by linking up with Tower it may be possible for DLE to maintain their price point as supporting many small dealers increases support cost in comparison. And with its market share Tower can place larger orders which is very helpful to anyone planning their manufacturing runs.

Sounds like the free market is working just fine here.

Clay

n� hǎo perhaps??

Spinner although I see the humor in your reply the real question is how does one address China? Our national policies tryiing to address it appear to have failed miserably.
John

I don't have a solution or I would offer it. As has been mentioned here already, I think we are in the middle of a paradigm shift with the whole global market scene similar to the changes the recording industry has experienced with digital music in the last decade. They're hanging onto the old way of doing things as tightly as they can with lawsuits and such but eventually they're going to have to make a major change and deal with it. Either we adapt or we go under. We can't go on thinking that the old way is the only way for the future. There's 1.5 billion people in China and their government is nothing like ours. Its a scary thought for sure and boycotting products from there won't work. We depend too much on it. The middle east hates us but we have to deal with them to satisfy our oil needs. In 50 or so years when the oil runs out, nobody will care about where and how we get our R/C plane hobby fix.

I can't blame Tower one bit for trying to get as much of our money as they possibly can. If they have the best price, they will get my money. I've never had a problem with their service, exchanging or returning items.

In the end, I buy from R/C companies that I think will give me the best combination of price and service.

Here is a nice story for T.O.M. I went to my local hobby shop about three weeks ago and was talking to the owner about how much I loved the new DLE-20 and he asked where I bought it from and I told him Tower Hobbies. This, as you might expect, kinda pissed him off. He asked why and I explained the huge difference in price is what swayed me - after taxes $292.26 from him or $219 with free shipping and no tax from Tower. Yesterday I went into this shop, as I usually do every other week or so, to spend my usual $30-$50, and he didn't have any DLE engines for sale. He quit carrying them. He was buying them from Hobbico and he didn't feel like he was getting the price he wanted so he dropped the line. He sells Zenoahs now and still carries Saito, OS, Evolution (gas/glow) and Thunder Tiger glow engines.

Since this thread is wandering all over the place, I thought I would post this to lighten the mood. I've been going to this site for a laugh for years:

Will it blend? Check out the iPhone videos....

Nah this thread has stayed on track. A rollercoaster track that is. I'm amazed it wasn't shut down. It has made for some really interesting reading. Merry Christamas all.
John

It's amazing how this one DLE gas engine has spurred discussion on China's undervalued currency, trade barriers, monopolies, trade agreements and legislation, evil railroad barrons, overcharging billionaires, undervalued laborers, illegal immigrants, the decline of the US as a world power, the role of the Internet, and the definition and limits of Capitalism.

AND this DLE's gonna save us a BUNDLE on fuel costs! It's a WIN-WIN!!

And, DLE engines also cure toenail fungus and whiten your teeth, too!

also brings out the grouchiest tongue-in-cheekers too.........................it is what it is[sm=punching.gif]

Sinner,

You made one of my points rather well. How does a hobby dealer stay in business when his supplier sells for less on the open market than what the supplier sells the product to him for? There's decades of history supporting this practice. That's my beef with Tower. They'll screw anybody to hold top position and put anyone out of business in the process. Talk to ANY hobby shop owner and you get a similar rant, which is why some shops do all they can to avoid dealing with them.

Once Tower drives the small vendors out of the market through dumping style pricing, where do you go for competition? The answer is noweher because there is nobody else. The people focused ona couple bucks savings today are cutting their throats for tomorrow. Their purchasing actions, not Tower's selling prices, are what will eliminate the competition. The small vendors CANNOT sell for less than DLE's minimum price structure. If they do DLE will not sell them more product. So how do you compete in a market that isn't free at all? You can't. Not too many people are going to want to spend an extra fee to join some super saver club at a small hobby shop.

How am I cutting my own throat tomorrow? If DLE 20s go to $349 in a couple of years, I won't be buying them cause someone else will make another three letter clone of it that is just as good and cost $219. The Chinese are kinda smart like that.

Tower's Super Saver Club costs $9.95 a year and you can save $50 on a DLE 20 purchase. That's a no brainer whether from Tower or a local hobby shop but you can optionally not join the club and pay the extra fifty bucks. I'm sure they won't mind.

By the way, who is Sinner?

Spinner's right. If Tower (those evil *******s) DO corner the DLE market there will be PLENTY of other, less expensive, less market-channel controlled brands out there to choose from (Hobby City already has about three other, less expensive brands than DLE). It appears that T.O.M. is arguing for supporting your LHS at all costs, or they'll go out of business. Well, the Internet is making much of retail obsolete. Instead of whining about try taking advantage of it. Does anyone actually go INTO a music store to buy CD's anymore? Does anyone NOT do a good deal or MOST of their Christmas shopping online now? A shame? Not for me - the internet increases the efficiency of commerce, saving ME time and money. And the trip to the store. One way to get onboard - perhaps invest in UPS or Fed Ex - those are companies that are bound to grow.

btw, as someone mentioned earlier - someone IS selling the DLE 20 for less than Tower. I did a quick search and found him - over the internet. My LHS didnt' have that information.

Yea, I've gotten a couple of PMs pointing me to some less expensive sites. One is for $209.

Didn't the DLE line come into existence because DA's were high priced and were available only from a limited number of sellers?

Well, since all of the mufflers, headers and pipes for a DA-50 fit perfectly on a DLE-55, I'd think so. [ul][*] [Chinese Manufactureer] "Hey, that engine is selling for $349! We can sell one like it (just like it - Okay, exactly like it) for wayyyyy less!" [/Chinese Manufactureer][*] Lets buy one and reverse engineer it.[*] Resourceful Chinese company manufactures new engine for $18 (or 18 cents - whatever)[*] Engine explodes onto the market for $249 and sells like hot cakes (you know, like some of the yummy ones from iHop).[*] User on RCU creates new thread about this engine. Politics, world events, toenails, nose hair and lip balm are discussed in length![*] Engine gains popularity quickly - "Man, this little motor is going to make people quit buying glow fuel!" Glow fuel manufactures starve and have to start selling anit-toejam cream to stay alive...[*] Tower/Hobbico/Great Planes (whoever) arranges a deal to be exclusive USA distribuotor.[*] Massive pissed off hobby shops start browsing around for a new cheaper engine to buy/sell.[*] "Holy cow! RCU loves this engine, lets buy/sell it!"[*] Go back to step 1 and repeat into infinity and beyond!
[/ul]

I think you've got it!

nose hair?
lip balm?

Why didn't I get a memo on those?
Where's the dang 'search' function?
{ooops, I can't say 'search', might get chastised}[]

Sorry summerwind, the I and the U are next to eaxh other on the keyboard.

When the time comes that Tower or someone else to have cornered the market with an engine product there probably won't be any cheaper ones coming down the pipe. By then they will have achieved theirs goals fo driving the rest out of business through dumoing and other unfair competition. The prices will go up, not down, because they will control the market.

I'm not saying to support the LHS at any and all costs, but I do feel we should support those that built the line, provide the best service, and participate in forums like this on their own time to provide people like you to have the answers they need. Without them DLE would not be an useful product today because they would not have had the help and support in continuing developing what they have.

People like Jody at Valley View RC, and others, are who did all the work to give you what you have and as soon as you guys see a price a few dollars less you kick them and say "Hey, we don't care how much work you did for free or how much help you've given me. It's all about me and if I can save a couple of bucks, cutting you out of the loop, too bad". That's what I've been trying to say. You're largely a bunch of ungrateful and will kick anyone as long as you save a nickle. I could easily understand why a small DLE dealer might want to double their hourly rate and charge for any warranty work on an engine bought at Tower.

WOW
The rest is censored