chorner

I don't necessarily agree with you on that one. The RimFires are better made plugs.

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

But are the Rimfires almost twice as good? For that is the difference in price.

chorner

Kind of hard to quantify value in that regard by comparison, as the RCEXL plugs do work well; so whether they are "twice" as good isn't exactly relevant, plus I don't know it'd be possible in this case to be twice as good However... if you're the kind that would rather know they have "the best", then the RimFires certianly fit the bill.

You just need to own both plugs and compare visually to tell the RimFires are higher quality design/manufature. For one, the non-soldered plug tip is 1 point for... another is if you look at the wire, you'll notice on the RimFires all plugs are manufacturered to around the same tolerance of a) straightness and 90 degree alignment to plug tip b) length and finally the durability of the plug metal is better (they don't wear down the corners of the hex as quickly).

Twice as good? I don't know - but knowing how economics works, the RimFires don't sell as many... and last longer. So they command a higher price

Good enough explanation I'd figure!

SrTelemaster150

Better made, perhaps, better performing NO. The only difference is that the Rimfires have machined ground electrode, the Chinese plugs are welded. That has no bearing whatsoever on performance. It is an unnecessary added expense. Automotive spark plugs are not made wityh machined electrode.

I currently have 5 Saito singles, 2 twins & a 3 cylinder radial, all running CDI with methanol. The Chinese plugs have shown better idle in some engines.

Since methanol has a higher flash point than gasoline, I would think that any deficiency would be more evident with methanol.

chorner

Sorry again, but I find the RimFires to perform better and give more consistent performance. For one, they are machined to higher specs - the biggest difference I see is that the tip of the plug wire, and the flat spot on the plug tip are parallel on all RimFires, but not all made to the same tolerance on the RCEXL plugs. So I'm not saying necesarily that given equal setups with both plugs (a nicely made and properly gapped RCEXL plug vs. a RimFire) one will vastly otuperform the other, but chances are better that the RimFires will consistently perform better and especially over the long run. That part isn't really up for discussion... a better made plug with tighter tolerances will last longer and more consistently given the same operating environment.

I also run methanol in several engines converted to CDI. I have 3 singles, and 3 methanol radials. By that count, it makes me an expert on CDI and methanol as well ;-) You're not the only one who uses CDI & methanol Telemaster!

the pope

You know buy upsetting rcu royalty you gonna be on his ignore list ! He's probably in a corner curled up in a ball or throwing all his toys out of his pram. The king is dead long live the king . The shame of it all .

chorner

lol pope, there seems to be quite a few "RCU Royalty" floating around on here. If you question any of their "authority" on whatever given topic they profess to master, they throw a tantrum :P There's another thread on RCU I derailed (edit to say not purposely mind you), and the dude ended up getting himself banned because he couldn't control his emotions after repeated offenses. Grown men quickly turn into children on here it seems heh heh

SrTelemaster150

Kind of reminds me of the guys that swore by $20 "iridium" plugs in their 5.7 Hemis when I was setting records with $3 copper plugs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-Sbz2Etl_A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhG0KlXEOnU If spending more on magic spark plugs makes you feel better good for you.

chorner

I don't consider them magic that's for sure. Just a little better quality and longer lasting

Anyhow... I'm on the fence about whether to send my engine to Ray English for the plenum chamber mod to pick up an extra ~800 rpm and improve the fuel draw of the engine. Spoke with him and he's incredibly nice and obviously very knowledgable - I guess its whether an extra bit of performance and better fuel draw is worth $300 as it doesn't affect reliability like with the FG84 etc.

Edit: spoke to Ray and clarified what performance differences I'd see with the mod, as initially it was stated somewhere on RCU it'd improve by around 800rpm. Turns out that may be a bit optimistic, and he states closer to 500rpm, and a bit sharper overall throttle response. Not worth $285 USD in my books for a slight improvement, and by the time you send the engine out via mail if not in the US and the time to receive it back... I'd have to really need the extra 0.5 to 1HP it nets (or extra couple lbs of thrust in other words). If I were flying a bird closer to 30lbs, I may opt for it as it'd make more of a noticeable difference in that case.

Timbers

My Feedback: (3)

In my Saito Fg-21 I went a little over 5 gallons before I started to get some missing with a stock Saito plug. I decided to look at the plug and the electrode was worn away making the gap pretty big. I bent it down to the proper gap but it still ran bad, so I replaced it. 5 gallons on a single cylinder FG-21 is a ton of flight time. For what its worth....

Timbers

My Feedback: (3)

Ok guys I'm going to break in my FG-60R3 soon, and I'm confused by the crappy directions. I know this thread is full of some hints, but I still have some questions on the break in.

Here is what Saito says:
●Open the main needle about 2 turns from full close.●Power on the ignition system.●Open the throttle about 1/4 from full close.●Starting with excessively opened throttle is dangerous since the plane jumps forward.●Apply the electric starter to the prop and activate for about 5-10 seconds to start the engine.●If the engine doesnʼt start up, open the main needle 1 turn more and apply the starter again.●Once the engine starts run it for about 10 sec in low speed.●Open the throttle fully and open the main needle until the speed drops just before engine stops. (Ref. Under approx4,000rpm at full throttle.)●If the fuel mixture doesnʼt become rich and speed doesnʼt decrease, open the slow needle too.●Then continue running for 2 tanks under the same condition.

Then it says to tune it to peak RPM, and back off a little bit rich and then go fly it 20 times in this condition.


Question 1: So after only 10 seconds of running on its first start up, you go to full throttle and open the main needle until the RPMS drop to the point where the engine is almost shutting off, which should be around 4000RPM. Really? After only 10 seconds I should floor it? Never done that with any engine before!

Question 2: So once its set to run at full throttle around 4000RPM super rich, I just start it up and floor it, let it sit there and burn out two tanks of fuel in this condition? Just straight full throttle 4000RPM super rich for two straight tanks?

Question 3: After two tanks on the ground has anyone trusted it to fly their plane? From what I read in this forum they didn't. Most of you have run 2 or more liters through it. Should I go this route?

Question 4: I would like to monitor cylinder temps during breakin, and even in the air. What is the optimal break-in temperature I should be looking for? What would you say is too hot?

Thanks for the help!

chorner

Everyone has their own ideas what's best, but to me... 1st make sure you give your engine a decent amount of oil in all the rocker covers, in the cylinder heads, and through the drain plug up into the crankcase. It's very dry and "scratchy" when you first get it.

Beyond that, the main thing to take from the directions is that you need to flood it with oil and fuel when first running to expell any manufacturing crud left in the engine, as well as very thoroughly lubricate all of the mating surfaces. I would think a litre of fuel would be more than enough to do this at full throttle, really rich at 4,000rpm. Beyond that, you want to start getting more heat into the engine, while still running rich enough to fully saturate the engine.

Keep in mind, the manual suggests a 1,000cc tank for break-in... so after 2 tanks, that's actually your 2 liters of fuel right there.

IMO, it is really important to run at least initially for the first few liters or more, an oil that has zinc in it. I intend to use the RedLine break-in additive which contains zinc, and Ray English highly reccommends just using the Morgan Cool Power synthetic oil package, as it is the only oil he says you can buy off the shelf that contains zinc and other phosphates directly in the oil to begin with. The zinc (in addition to other phosphates included in the oil) provides a similar layer of protection to Castor Oil, but doesn't gum up... and it really sticks to items like the bushings etc. You'll find it creates a dark oily mess, but that means you're properly lubricating the engine. This will prevent any potential seizing, and give you a longer lasting engine.

Just my 2 cents

Timbers

My Feedback: (3)

Thanks. I'm running Redline synthetic for oil, I'll pick up some break-in additive. Wow yah I didn't put two and two together. So I should run 1000cc or "1 liter" through the engine right away. Do you do that straight or do you stop and take breaks, to check for loose bolts, etc? That could take awhile, I'm assuming over 1 hour to run through the engine.

latch

My Feedback: (1)

I have a Saito 180 nitro. I need a adapter for the exhaust to transition out of the cowl. I am wondering if the larger size OS engines use the same pipe thread as the Saito???

SrTelemaster150

You should probably post this on the CLUB SAITO THREAD.

scubaozy

I have read somewhere that Saito uses threadlock on its engines so I am tempted to get something like loctite278 on cylinder bolts. It is a high strength one (good to 200 deg celcius), do you think this is a bad idea or should I use something low strength.

Timbers

My Feedback: (3)

It says blue (medium) and red (high strength) are both good up to 300F. They also make red 272 hi-temp/hi-strength which is good up to 450F.

I'm going to stay with blue because I want to have the ability to tighten the bolts at the field without having to heat up all of the screws with a torch in order to get them out to re-tighten/re-threadlock.

I'm guessing the crank case of this engine doesn't get anywhere near 300F so I'm hoping we won't have any issues with blue threadlock coming loose.

I'm going to wait until after I break my engine in before I run around and threadlock all of the jug screws. I'm going to tighten them all down, then mark them with a gold Sharpie so I can visually see if they have moved during my break-in runs.

chorner

Do you guys think it may just be poor casting on some of the engines? I noticed on mine in particular, a pronounced line where the two halves of the head were joined together... I'd hazard a guess that some of the engines have a bit worse/weaker joint between the two halves combined with them using bolts which in my opinion don't offer nearly enough surface area.

Even engines like my Evolution 7-77, and ASP FS400AR have fully machined 1 piece cylinder walls/head, and proper needle bearings and brass bushings on ALL connecting rods, not just the master rod. Or in the case of other Saito engines, no brass bushing or needle bearings whatsoever.

I really still am adament that Saito engines are a bit on the cheap side in a few aspects... but what can you do? They offer the best spark ignition small radials you can buy through the major supply chains, without having to modify an engine to run gas/spark ignition.

For what it's worth, after rebuilding my ASP FS400 with an entire truckload of better quality parts, and carb etc. I can out turn this Saito using a 22x10 prop Only drawback, is it uses more fuel and doesn't fit into the P-47 cowl without hacking it up. So I'll save that engine for another project.

SrTelemaster150

Since the failures so far seem to be isolated to #2 cylinder, that would indicate to me that it might have something to do with the case.

Also interesting that the base screws are so loose. I have had extreme difficulty getting the base screws to break loose on most Saito engines that have never been apart.

In addition, the same base screws have been used on all medium Saito singles & multi cylinder engines based on them W/O issue.

Timbers

My Feedback: (3)

I have a question. I had to drill a hole in my TF P47 Tarheel Hal so the carb opening would fit. Just like the directions say. So now the carb is actually a little bit in the firewall, and open to the inside of the plane.

The instructions for the engine say that fuel can spray out of the carb. Is the inside of my plane going to be covered in fuel spray now? If it is I'm wondering if I should machine up some longer engine to firewall spacers so the carb doesn't have to be sitting part way inside the firewall. Then just fuel-proof the firewall and I'd be set.

Thanks!

...Tim

chorner

I installed longer standoffs for my installation. I also used a mix of thinned epoxy, and clear coat sprayed on the inside of the fuselage all around up in the nose just to make sure it lasts as long as possible.

Also, the distance between the prop hub and firewall should be around ~172mm for proper fit of the cowl as well, so the included standoffs are short by ~4-5mm.

radfordc

My Feedback: (14)

I did the breakin on the bench with my engine today. After an hour it was turning a Xoar 22x8 at 6400 and idling at 1400. I know the low end needle is still too rich as the engine is slow to accelerate from an idle. This was the first engine I've ever had that started on the very first flip of the prop.

hpergm

Answer #1: Yes, floor it. If its rich @ 4000rpm, it's OK. I would recommend opening the High at least 7 turns before you start it so that there is absolutely no way you run it lean @ high throttle.

Answer #2: Yes. You can try leaning the engine stand or rotating the engine 120 deg at a time/tank to help the previously bottom cold cylinders come on top to build up heat/compression faster while doing this.

Answer #3: If you have a not-so-expensive plane (i.e. not a WWII scale masterpiece), go ahead and fly it. The leaning during turning helps all the cylinders bed in much faster than on the ground. This being a multi, there is much less chance of a flame-out because at least one cylinder will have better mixture than the others and keep the motor turning - albeit with much reduced power. Get a low wing loaded airframe and fly high figure 8's for 4-5 flights. Then the motor will be ready to be tuned perfect. I didn't have this possibility, so I ended up performing protracted ground runs, but would have preferred the flight option any time..

Answer #4: Any temp below 180 Celsius is super safe. I have run the motor upto 210 but only allowed this instantaneously. However, make sure you measure with a contact probe, close to the plug on the rear side of the cylinder. Do this for the top cylinder first, usually this one is the hottest during break in. Engine has perfect tune when all 3 cylinders heat-up the same (within +/-5%) from idle to WOT.

As other members have said, each has their own way - but this worked for me OK.
Hope this helps.
Enjoy your new jewellery.

BR,
Hector.

radfordc

My Feedback: (14)

1. With the high speed needle open two turns and the throttle cracked, my engine started on the first flip. After 10 seconds I started opening the throttle and the main needle together. My engine ran at about 3500 rpm at full rich. Only the top cylinder (#1) was firing. The other two cylinders were too rich to fire. Saito says this is OK.

2. I ran 32oz. of gas through the engine and then shut the engine down and let it cool. Then I ran another 32 oz. still at full rich. Finally I ran another 16oz. and began leaning the engine to peak for a few seconds and then back to rich. At the end of all this the engine would hold peak rpm without a problem.

3. I will check and adjust the valves and run another tank or two on the bench to get the final adjustments on the high and low needles before flying.

4. I used an IR temp gun to monitor the cylinder temps. At full rich #1 cylinder was under 200 F. The other two cylinder were cold because they weren't firing. At peak rpm #1 was around 225 F and the other two were around 170 F.

cathurga

Hey Guys,

I asked this question in another forum, but did not get an answer, maybe someone else could help me with this.

When mounting the engine in my plane, the throttle position is VERY awkward, I would like to flip it 180 degrees. Is it possible to do it on these engines? I am not familiar with them, but there are two grub screws on the throttle body, and one in the plastic arm. Can anyone help me with this?

Regards