iskandar taib

My Feedback: (5)

Interesting. Never thought of visiting the web site, all these years. According the web site. MMO is a top oil. It's meant to be added to gas, it lubricates and removes deposits in the carb and in the top end of the engine (head, valves, etc.). They only make MMO and Air Tool Oil. The Air Tool Oil is also meant to remove deposits - in air tools, aside from keeping them from rusting. So both products have something in them to CLEAN. Don't know if this is a desirable trait for an after run oil in model engines. Not that I've seen anyone claim that using them in glow engines cleans out varnish or carbon, either.

Iskandar

1QwkSport2.5r

I wouldn't use any after run oil in an iron piston engine unless it was castor oil. Anything that "cleans" will kill the nice castor varnish buildup on/in the piston. Certainly fine for tapered bore and ringed engines, although I will stick to ATF since I have a lot of it I can't use anymore.

bruceal

I have been using MMO for a while now and it seems to work well. The air tool oil version is better but a little harder to find. I did get it on Amazon a while ago so now I'll look again.

SrTelemaster150

An automatic transmission has small bearings & many moving parts that would suffer the same as an engine if what you are saying is true.

jmpups

My Feedback: (1)

Well I only use 5% nitro like you do. The engine was dry and had not been used for at least a month before I lubricated it and put it away. So I don't thing that it was a nitro problem. I would think that putting it in a vacuum sealed bag would have removed any moisture. So the only thing left was the oil itself. In any case I am out of glow engines and won't have the problem again. Thanks, JMPUPS

toolmaker7341

Chech out Amsol web site for ATF contains Resins as ingreadiant

SrTelemaster150

So what? Some of you guys run castor oil in Saito 4-strokes & yet you're worried about "resin" in ATF used for ARO?

I am currently rebuilding a Saito FA450R3D that was run on castor lube & it ain't pretty. My engines run on Cool Power W/ATF used only for storage look one heck of a lot better internally than the gummed up FA450.

I've never had any gummming up even after 15 years of storage.

SteveR Rambin

It's not the oil, it's the other chemicals in with the oil. If there's any question about using MMO on a gas engine then it would be good idea to give the mfg. (such as Desert Aircraft) a call to get their opinion on it. Might save you a bundle.

TimBle

LOL this thread is really funny now. Telemaster, I suspect you are preaching to the uncovertable.

toolmaker7341

I'm not worried at all just letting anyone interested that what your recommending is not a pure type lubricant and it contains resin that is a friction inhancer. Anyone can now make an informed decision as to what they prefer to put into therir engines. Castor oil has been gumming up engines since the 1800's but its the best lubricant for a 2 stroke. Just requires maintance.

TimBle

ROTFLMAO

Sport_Pilot

There is nothing mentioned on that siteabout resins as an ingreadiant. In fact on of their products says it improves friction by cleaning off oxidization and dirt from the clucth's.

Sport_Pilot

We used to add MMO to the cranccase of theolder model aircraft engines. It prevented the lead from causing the valves to stick! It was common practice and I think they may even had an AD for this practice. If it destroyed rings I would have thought there would have been an AD to stop this practice.

Then again maybe that's why I had to replace a cylinder every other annual!

toolmaker7341

The high performance ATF (no Picture) lists that it contains more resin for better friction and less slip. Guess you didnt read far enough.Just trying to educate the engine guru's as to what they actually putting in the engines. No worry use it not in my engines.

SrTelemaster150

The point you are missing is that friction on fiberous clutch plates is far different than friction on metal parts.

ATF can't be friction inducing on the metal parts or it would destroy the transmission in short order. An automatic transmission is far more complicated than out engines & the aotomatic transmissions have many small, close tolerance metal parts. Chrysler used to spec' ATF in some of their manual transmissions.

I used to use ATF in the primary drive of my '67 BSA Thunderbolt to keep the clutches from gumming up thus increaseing friction on the plates while simultainiously reducing friction/wear on the metal chain & sprockets.

Sport_Pilot

I ignored the Powershift transmission fluid because a Powershift transmission is actually a manual transmission but controlled externally and can be made tooperate like an automatic. Kind of like a robot doing the manualshift and clutch for you They come in both wet and dry clutch versions. I think the wet clutch type requires itsown special fluid,but that can also be usedon the dry clutch version. But I did a word search and could not find the word resin there either.

blw

My Feedback: (3)

The castor ruins engines argument still persists. This may be a good one for a Myth Busters show.

TimBle

lubricants for Wet clutches use a healthy does of VI improver which are not "resins' but shear sensitive polymers. Under high shear the polymers lengthen their chain to trap more oil molecules so that the oil behaves as a viscous polymer. Its that increase in viscosity and hence shear strenght that imparts drive between the moving parts.

SrTelemaster150

Read the 3rd paragraph. http://saito-engines.info/fuel.html

The "castor is acceptable" language comes from Horizon, not Saito.

When I bought my 1st Saito, an FA150 back around 1996, the instruction that came W/the engine had similar language warning not to use fuel containing any castor oil.

Even though the exhaust ports suggested low hours, the used FA450R3D I purchased recently was a gummed up mess inside that reeked of castor oil. The whole engine smelled of castor & the carburetor was gummed up too. I never find such a mess in my Saito engines run exclusively on Cool Power fuel W/full synthetic lube. For some reason, the plastic crank pin spacer melted & an "E" clip became dislodged destroying the pistons & cylinders. The engine had been slapped back together for sale as I found a piece of the melted spacer in the #3 combustion chamber! Other than the melted remains of the plastic spacer, there was no evidence of over heating. The cylinders were not steaked although the bottoms were scratched/pitted & the thin bottom lips were broken from the multiple inpacts of the "E" clip & plastic pin spacer boucing around.

I did run Byron's 4-stroke fuel that contained Castor oil when I 1st bought my FA150.

After hearing the exhaust valves "crack" as they lifted off the sticky castor gummed valve seats, (the FA450R3D did the same thing when I turned it over) I ceased using fuel W/castor oil. Unfortunately the damage was done as the engine would not idle reliably. I tried OBG & finally CDI allowed an acceptable idle speed where I could land the plane @ idle. A while later when I had to disassemble the engine to clean it after a crash, I discovered that the exhaust cam lobe was wiped out.

If Saito warns against the use of castor oil, why do so many insist on using it? I find that especially puzzling since full synthetic lube has worked so well for me.

TimBle

+1

1QwkSport2.5r

Ya know... I'm nowhere near as experienced as some of you, but I find it funny when these threads show up over and over, and the same off subject remarks show up over and over.

MMO vs. ATF vs. Air Tool Oil

Castor vs. Synthetic

Saito vs. Enya vs. OS vs. YS

blah blah blah. One side is always trying to convince another their way is better. Some guys are quite pushy in regard to their regimen and why you should adopt their ways too. Why? Frankly, I think that if what fuel and oil you use is working for you, great. Lets nust try to keep the subject in mind. I personally am going to try to not participate in these threads as they drive me nuts because we get so far off topic. I know I have contributed to this problem and I'll try to abstain from doing so.

Edit: changed wording.

iskandar taib

My Feedback: (5)

I'd never even consider castor oil as an after-run - it'll go rancid and oxidize, and turn into a thick goo after a while. Definitely bad if your engines have ball bearings (like my Combat Specials), they'll gum up the balls and even if the engine isn't stuck it'll cause the balls to skid briefly upon startup, leading to wear. If you've got a plain bearing engine, and you don't plan to put the engine away for a while, it should work, but I have not heard of anyone complaining that ATF or air tool oil removes varnish. It's usually using fuel with synthetic oil (i.e. polyalkylene glycols) that does it, all it takes is one run to ruin an old engine by removing the varnish.

Iskandar

SrTelemaster150

Does everyone realize that castor oil is a "fatty acid chain"?

Google "castor oil properties".


As far as ARO "removing varnish" I don't particularly want "varnish" in my engines.

In fact, I prefer to avoid any varnish at all & Cool Power leaves only a green stain & oily residue, not varnish.

I think this castor oil obsession is a throw back from plain bearing ringless engines days.

iskandar taib

My Feedback: (5)

ROFL. This reminds me of the time someone (can't remember where, might've been here, might've been Stuka Stunt) claimed that they put pumice in Type F ATF. You know, the same pumice they put in Lava Soap and Gojo Hand Cleaner. This was because, years and years ago, the instructor in a course he took (might've been in the military, don't remember now) said so. However, he said, Dextron III (and I suppose III) was OK - they ONLY put the pumice in Type F. I pointed out to him that even Ford automatic transmissions had moving parts, anything in ATF that would cause wear in model airplane engines would cause a great deal MORE wear on said moving parts. Well, he said - he got out the notes again, and RIGHT THERE - it said PUMICE. So he would "stand by his words".

If you look it up, you'll find the difference between Type F and Dexron was friction modifiers - Dextron had them, Type F did not. Use the wrong fluid and clutches would slip and worse. What were these friction modifiers? Wikipedia says such things as whale oil (!) and jojoba oil. Certainly not pumice.

Iskandar

iskandar taib

My Feedback: (5)

So? (It's not even true, but even if it were..)

I can guess by this you don't run Fox Stunts!

Iskandar