Jess:

I have Amazing Grace played by the Scottish National Pipe and Drum Corps. It is on a CD with quite a few other bagpipe favorites.

If you would like, I can convert it to mp3 and send you a copy.

You can then use your computer for the background music at your funeral.

Haw.

Bill.

I truely did not see the humor in your post. However, since others did, it was obviously my problem. My fortune cookie tonight said "others appreciate your sense of humor". I guess it must have gone on vacation and forgotten to tell me to stay away from controversial discussions. Going back to lurker mode since I'm no longer contributing...

And a note to Dave, I can play Amazing Grace, which is a good thing, because you definitely DO NOT WANT to hear me sing it

And here's a quiz to all, why do pipers walk while they are playing?

Chuck:

Everybody knows it's a vain attempt to get away from the awful skirling noise they make.

Haw.

Bill.

Profit, he will not do, I 'guarontee'. (guarantee), but keep in mind, he obviously wanted an audience and sure has gotten one. His experiment could have been done with out all of the hoopla , and then he could have just posted his results .

This is not a flame at downunder , just a response to jessiej's question.

P.S. I'm psychic so to answer your next question , I do want to know the results. .

Nice try, but not quite, many of us wear ear plugs. Next guess?

I thought it was just to keep some airflow under those kilts....[sm=stupid.gif]

Chuck:

ROFLMAO!!!

Bill.

Sort of a free ? Oops, forgot this is a family site. Nope, it's not that either.

Bill,
For cryin out loud don't dump this thread we are having a little fun here (more than any current RCU threads I can think of for some time). Sure a lot of diffrent viewpoints out there,
and I enjoy everyone, even if I disagree.

[And here's a quiz to all, why do pipers walk while they are playing? ]

To my shame Chuck (me being half Scott), I must confess ignorance on this one. I can't even come up with a smartass guess

jess

Gizmo:

I have no objection at all to the thread becoming humorous. I object when it becomes contentious, and that's where it was when I commented on closing it.

Bill.

The answer is because it's harder to hit a moving target.

Hi Bill,
I understand, it's amazing (grace?) how upsetting this is to some ...........if I pay attention I might learn something? If not no harm, no foul.

Chuck:

Having expended many moldy grapefruit and rotten tomatos attempting to eliminate the awful racket disturbing me all the way down to my soul, my experience forces me to agree. A moving piper is hard to hit.

So I usually cheat.

I'll select a medium to large "Tattoo" event. Then there are so many that if you miss one the projectile continues and hits the next one.

Very soul satisfying.

Haw.

Bill.

....back on topic for a moment....

I found some interesting info there, downunder....

Unless my reading comprehension has taken a severe dive, it appears that this
racing engine manufacturer is saying that his super high strung engines...."should
be run in the air....with the engine fourstroking for the first flights".

Hmmmmmm....that's creates a dilemma for the "four stroking your engine will
ruin it crowd".

WOW !! ....one full turn out....that rich? Man, I hope that engine doesn't get
"ruined"....what a shame.

Wait a minute....this manufacturer says that it's a "fact that wear highly coincides
with high temperatures". The doomsday folks are saying that wear and damage
happens from running the engine too rich. (cold) It looks like we have another
conflict here, huh ?

I think I will have to agree with the man, because as a mechanic myself I know
that friction and wear comes from heat....not cold....or as Rossi calls it....

....greasy. (running rich)

FBD.

Read this again, Dave.

...And your last post

Do you think it could be Profi doesn't want some of the people that buy their engine, those that are 'smart enough' to listen and four-stroke their new engine (allegedly not possible in this type of engine).

How does '10 gallons, after an ABC type break-in, instead of 2, 3, or 4' go in the same paragraph with your (and Profi's) 'high wear coincides with high temperatures'???

Excessively high temperatures - that is for sure.
But more wear at the normal running temperature, than at a lower, high friction four-cycling???

Someone here is missing the point and I am not him!

Not hard to miss the point when this entire thread is pointless other than Brian sharing his test results with us. I suspect he'll come to the same conclusion I have and that is that, as someone stated above, just run the engine and use a little common sense.

The engine part of this thread has been entertaining if not enlightening.

I preferred the Pipe discussion. There is actually nothing to compare with the sound of a full Pipe and Drum Scottish military marching band. The skirl of the pipes, the beat of the drums, the swinging of the sporran and the Drum Major twirling his baton.

Some people may remember in the second world war that the Japanese troops referred to the Scottish troops "As the women from hell" There was very good reason for that.

Some people may remember in slightly more recent times when the Argyle and Sutherland Highlanders, led by Major Mike Hoare and accompanied by the pipes marched into Crater in the middle east and cleared the armed riff raff out of there without firing a shot.

Ed S

P.S. Just a little relief from the endless, endless, engine break in talk!

DarZeelon....

Well first off, these extreme RPM car engines are a horse of a different color,
as are the ABC racing aero-engines....and have different needs for the care and
feeding of them.

What does idling a car engine for 3 tanks have to do with anything ? Did the
manual say it was OK to do that ? I don't think so.

You are offering this as proof of what ?

"high wear coincides with high temperatures'' is referring to high wear associated
with high temps as in a lean/hot high temp condition....not normal temp running
coditions....because as we all know, normal running conditions don't produce
high wear conditions.

If you read the text on this site, the manufacturer wants the engines running
"as rich as possible"....and wants the engines "slightly four-stroking" for the
initial flights.

The K&B manufacture site states that the engines should be launched in a four
cycle mode.

This man says an engine will last 10 gallons with a normal break-in ? (yeah right)

Your assertion that engines have more wear at a low speed, cool running
(four stroking) mode is false....plain and simple. Your statements to the newbee's
"if you ran your engine rich, it may already be ruined"....is false.

Once again....I do not, or have ever recommended that a modeler not follow the
manufactures break-in recommendation...although you have. I have never stated
that anyone should run their ABC engines for long periods of time, or any amount of
time for that matter in a four stroke fashion. I do not run my engines that way, in
fact I probably run my Sport ABC engines harder than most during break-in....
because I use the technique used for racing engines....peaked out max for a few
seconds, then back to richened condition for about 15 seconds....then back to peak
to a few seconds.

Three runs of about 6-7 minutes each is all I give them. The peak runs get a few
seconds longer each tank....up to about 20 seconds at the end. This method is quite
similar to the HP racing engine site. I never let the engine run leaner than peak RPM,
in fact....I don't take my fingers off the high speed needle during peak runs....I'm
constantly opening the needle and closing it....making sure the engine is at the full
peak....and at the same time, as rich as it will run and still maintain full peak.

What I have said, is....four stroking wont hurt the sport ABC engine during the break-in
period. Your doomsday threads say the opposite. You have argued to OS Engines, and
Jett engines that their procedures are incorrect. I say their procedures are just fine.

I say the correct way to break-in an ABC sport engine is too start it up and run it.
Use the correct fuel recommended bt the manufacturer....an as long as you don't
over heat it....it will be fine.

FBD.

Here is what the K&B site says (bold emphasis is theirs, italics are mine):

AIRBORNE BREAK-IN

1> BREAK-IN running should be done with the recommended propeller at a slightly rich setting. You want the engine to be at running operating temperatures. The needle valve should be set at a point just into this range from a four cycle setting. Fly the plane at maximum throttle for 2 minutes, then throttle back to half throttle for approximately 30 seconds. Repeat this sequence until approximately 20 minutes of accumulated running time has been obtained...

Right on, Jan....[sm=thumbup.gif]

FBD.

Here's ol' FBD...."not following the manufactures instructions". (again )

....over 16 grand on the third run....

Idunno about everyone, but the only way I really know of to toast a good ABC/AAC engine is to fly it lean. Getting it lean/hot will ruin the seal quickly. Launching an engine 500-1000 rpm down is pretty common. Sometimes this causes the engine to dribble down off of the pipe and sound very rich. But thats normal.

The use of bubble-free fuel tanks for racing saved a bunch of us quite a bit of $$ in piston/liner sets and glow plugs, since the engines didnt go super lean the last lap as the tank ran dry.

Chuck....the K&B site has some conflicting and misinformation on it. []

__________________________________________________ _____________

SLOPPY RICH MIXTURE running is characterized by a very slow, irregular, sputtering
exhaust sound. The exhaust gas will be very smoky and contain many droplets of oil.
NEVER RUN AN ABC ENGINE AT THIS SETTING. The cylinder is not able to heat
properly and the fit will be ruined in a short time.

RICH MIXTURE running is characterized by a slower, sometimes irregular, sputtering
exhaust sound. The exhaust gas will be smoky and probably contain small droplets
of oil. NEVER RUN AN ABC ENGINE AT THIS SETTING. The cylinder is not able to
heat properly and the fit will be ruined in a short time.

FOUR CYCLING or SLIGHTLY RICH running is a rich type setting, but it is fast enough
to pull the airplane. This is the setting you normally look for before launching the
airplane because the engine will run leaner when airborne.
__________________________________________________ _____________

The author says not too run the engine sloppy rich in para 1.
Para 2. says not to run it at a rich mixture.
Para 3. says four cycling "is a rich type setting", and one would "look for this setting
before launching the airplane".

The HP engine site recommended launching the engine in a "slight four-cycle mode"
as well for the initial break-in flights.

Where does either manufacturer say that running the engine....sport or racing, in a
four-cycle mode....will ruin the engine ? They don't do they ?

Yet Dar Zellon will claim that four-cycling an ABC engine will ruin it to his dying breath.

I contend....that is a false theory. Brian's experiment is proving it as well.
45 minutes of straight 4-cycling with out a sign of damage or wear !!!

FBD.

Dave,


And that is not wear... Neither is a loss of 500 RPM...
Well, you can define 'wear' any way you like...

You argue that a rich, four-cycling break-in will not harm any engine, yet you use the technique from my thread to do the break-in for your own tapered-bore engines.

This is because despite of what you write here, you know that my break-in thread, which is based on George Aldrich and other past and present model engine paragons, as well as on my own experience, is nothing but correct.