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Old 12-11-2017, 01:50 AM
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Originally Posted by the Wasp
careful guys, you will get in OF's sights, then the world-wind will start up

LOL
Jim
Damn right dave did and how come in that nice photo they shared above she ain't holding a large calibre (judge) handgun to his head,because that's what it's gonna take to make him realise the fa115 makes the old saito 125 redundant in most senses?

Dave do saito really get their prop figures on 30% i'd like to hear the background on that out of interest.Saito list identical benchmark apc props for both the 115 and 125,just trying to help...yours faithfully,pete
Old 12-11-2017, 04:08 AM
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Good morning Pete, or evening to you. I will cut and past the Bench Mark numbers for the 125 and the 115 that are shown over her at Horizon.

From the 125 specs:

Benchmark Prop:APC 16X6 @ 9000 rpm
Saito 115 specs===Benchmark Prop:APC 15 x 6 @8800 rpm
My own numbers for the newer 125 I bought are:
On 10% with 18% full synthetic and a Fox Miracle Plug.

Master Airscrew 16x6 Classic max rpm==9,025
Graupner Super Nylon 15x8 max rpm===8,885

I haven't tacked it with the C&H Ignition, I want to play with the timing a little. The timing is currently at Dan's recommended 35 degrees BTDC.

There was a time when Horizon stated that the rpm were obtained using 30% nitro methane fuel, they no longer state that and I wonder if it's because too many were taking that as gospel and that led to many on here saying that Saitos NEEDED 30% to run right. Which of course they don't need any nitro methane at all. Although they do respond to it very well.

Last edited by Hobbsy; 12-11-2017 at 04:50 AM. Reason: Add content
Old 12-11-2017, 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Hobbsy
That is direct from the Saito 115 specs, and they use 30% nitro methane to get it.
.Benchmark Prop:APC 15 x 6 @8800 rpm Bore:1.25 in (31.7mm).
Carb Type:2 Needle Crank Typeual Ball Bearing. Crankshaft Threads:M8 x 1.25mm. Cylinder Type:AACCylinders:SingleDisplacement:1.15 cu. in. (18.9 cc). Engine (Only) Weight:20.6 oz (585 g)
Mounting Dimensions:115 x 60 x 110 (L x W x H) crankcase - width 40 / mounting holes - 50 OC Type: CastMuffler Weight:2.89 oz (80 g)Prop Range:14 x 8 – 16 x 6RPM Range:1800 to 10000 rpm Recommended Fuel:Glow Stroke:.94 in (24mm). Total Weight:23.49 oz (665 g)
That's ridiculous and it wouldn't be the 1st time Saito posted erroneous RPM numbers. Given the fact that my FA-91 spins a 15x5 @ 9700 RPM I would expect about a 500 RPM drop for an extra inch of pitch. If you subtract another 300 RPM for glow ignition and it would still spin more RPM than what Saito specs' for the FA-115.

I'll post numbers for my FA-115 when I bench run it. I'll even do a glow ignition base line and then CDI to see what, if any, the improvement would be. I'm planning on running a 15x8.

Last edited by SrTelemaster150; 12-11-2017 at 05:32 AM.
Old 12-11-2017, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Hobbsy
Good morning Pete, or evening to you. I will cut and past the Bench Mark numbers for the 125 and the 115 that are shown over her at Horizon.

From the 125 specs:

Benchmark Prop:APC 16X6 @ 9000 rpm
Saito 115 specs===Benchmark Prop:APC 15 x 6 @8800 rpm
My own numbers for the newer 125 I bought are:
On 10% with 18% full synthetic and a Fox Miracle Plug.

Master Airscrew 16x6 Classic max rpm==9,025
Graupner Super Nylon 15x8 max rpm===8885

I haven't tacked it with the C&H Ignition,

There was a time when Horizon stated that the rpm were obtained using 30% nitro methane fuel, they no longer state that and I wonder if it's because too many were taking that as
I just ran some calculations.

Saito FA 115 spec' 15x6 APC @ 8800 RPM = 1.49 HP (15x6 APC @ 9800 RPM = 1.9 HP, perhaps Saito spec' is a typo?)
FA-91S CDI 15x5 @ 9700 RPM = 1.57 HP
Saito spec, 16x6 APC @ 9000 RPM = 2.1 HP
Your MAS 16x6 @ 9025 RPM = 2.0 HP
Your Graupner 15x8 @ 8885 RPM = 1.9 HP

As far as the FA-125 with CDI, I tried to work with another forum members FA-125 with CDI and got dismal results. It would not sustain WOT with a 16x8 without spitting the prop and that was with CDI! Running on GI was even worse. With a smaller prop it would sustain WOT, but I could not get smooth RPM without surging at mid throttle without opening the throttle and cutting it back.I don't remember what the prop or RPM numbers were, but I do remember they were not much better than what my FA-91S did with CDI. Over all, I was not impressed with the FA-125.
Old 12-11-2017, 07:34 AM
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A 16x8 would be a serious overload considering that it is a 1.50 sized prop. I did some digging over at Flying Giants and there numbers for the 125 and various brands of 16x6's ranged from 9,200 to 9,600 using fuel with 10% to 30% nitro methane. This would be the early 125 in the year 2008.

Last edited by Hobbsy; 12-11-2017 at 07:58 AM.
Old 12-11-2017, 09:41 AM
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I got my 125 in 2007 for $325. It turned either an APC 15x6 or 15x7. I'm betting it's a 15x6 but I'm not pulling off the spinner to look. It turned in the low 9K's from what I remember on 15%. That Saito took over 2 gallons to settle down and smooth out. It was never a high revver. I have it on a CA Models 90 size Epsilon. When tuned just right it would pull like a stump puller and could turn the Epsilon into a rocket. Very nice combination. Very nice sounding engine, but the FA-72 still sounds best at full throttle imo. That 125 was temperamental when I first broke it in. I didn't like it at first, but it finally acted like a Saito after a lot of fuel burned.
Old 12-11-2017, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Hobbsy
A 16x8 would be a serious overload considering that it is a 1.50 sized prop. I did some digging over at Flying Giants and there numbers for the 125 and various brands of 16x6's ranged from 9,200 to 9,600 using fuel with 10% to 30% nitro methane. This would be the early 125 in the year 2008.
Overload? I've run an 18x8 on an FA-150 with glow ignition and it doesn't spit the prop @ WOT. The 125 did it running the 16x8 with CDI!

I'm not questioning your numbers for the FA-125 but the ones Saito posts fro the FA-115.

We will soon see what the true potential of the FA-115 and I wild bet it makes closer to 2 HP than 1.5 HP.

Some of us care about the appearance of our models and don't want an ugly cylinder exposed so the smaller footprint and shorter OA height of the FA-115 would be a valuable asset in a scale model.

Last edited by SrTelemaster150; 12-11-2017 at 10:03 AM.
Old 12-11-2017, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by triumphman49
Sr, Is that FA91S on cdi ignition?
Yes, it picked up about 300 RPM with CDI compared to GI.
Old 12-11-2017, 10:06 AM
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Hey Barry, I just got done doing a couple of things that have been on back burner. I ran my newer Saito .30 with a Graupner 8x6 three blade surprisingly I don't think it's enough prop.Then I checked the factory timing of the FG 11, the manual says it's set to a medium setting. I used both the stock Saito ignition system and a C&H Synchro unit, both say to use a 6v to 7.2 volt battery. I only have a 6v battery. It's difficult to take pictures when the winter sun is so low in the sky.

The timing is set at 35 degrees BTDC, this surprises, that's not exactly a medium setting. Back the Saito .30.

Ambien temp 39 F.
Fuel: Wildcat 10% with 18% full synthetic
Plug====OS-f
Exhaust===90 TS pipe with pressure fitting, it is surprisingly quiet.

Max rpm at first was 10,450, the engine had about 40 minutes on before today.
Max rpm after 45 more minutes 10,940
Idle==very smooth and steady 2,400.
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Last edited by Hobbsy; 12-11-2017 at 10:12 AM.
Old 12-11-2017, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by SrTelemaster150
Overload? I've run an 18x8 on an FA-150 with glow ignition and it doesn't spit the prop @ WOT. The 125 did it running the 16x8 with CDI!

I'm not questioning your numbers for the FA-125 but the ones Saito posts fro the FA-115.

We will soon see what the true potential of the FA-115 and I wild bet it makes closer to 2 HP than 1.5 HP.

Some of us care about the appearance of our models and don't want an ugly cylinder exposed so the smaller footprint and shorter OA height of the FA-115 would be a valuable asset in a scale model.
I actually hope you achieve it, it would give folks who own 1.15's something to do.
Old 12-11-2017, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Captcrunch44
I tried to up load a video of the first 180 build but no luck. If I could get some help on how to do that. Thanks
Use "Windows Movie Maker" to compress your clips and edit into a "movie". Then you can load it onto YouTube.
Old 12-11-2017, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Captcrunch44
I think the next one will get a paint job. I still can’t believe the power.
Get ready for some serious power. I just bought an FA-220 with the 12mm carburetor "hop up kit" and Saito aluminum engine mount on e-bay. All NIB.

What do you think the power output of a high compression FA-220 with the 12mm carburetor & ported intake manifold will be?
I'm estimating a bit over 4 HP with 15% nitro.

Originally Posted by Old Fart
So, i reckon a bog stock saito fa 220 zues on nitro with a dash of castor oil would give that 180hc a lazy hiding,what do you think?

Now don't forget the 115 ok?
OF please take notes.

Last edited by SrTelemaster150; 12-11-2017 at 10:53 AM.
Old 12-11-2017, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Hobbsy
I actually hope you achieve it, it would give folks who own 1.15's something to do.
I'm sure those that didn't swallow Saito's bogus FA-115 RPM numbers (Perhaps a ploy to promote the FA-125?) & gave the FA-115 a chance have plenty to do with their engines.

Since you couldn't figure out howto setup the simple and effective "pump" system on the FA-300TTDP nor could you gain any performance with the 12mm carburetor on the FA-220, I'm not surprised that you didn't extract the full power potential of your FA-115.

Last edited by SrTelemaster150; 12-11-2017 at 10:32 AM.
Old 12-11-2017, 10:42 AM
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I wished you well on that and was looking forward to the timing you settle on for the 1.15.

Last edited by Hobbsy; 12-11-2017 at 04:32 PM.
Old 12-11-2017, 11:58 AM
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Speaking of ignition timing, I checked the timing on my Saito FG 11, Saito says it's set at a medium setting. If my equipment doesn't lie it is set at 35 degrees BTDC. It reads the same whether using the stock ignition module or a C&H Ignition Synchro-Spark module That's not exactly medium.
Old 12-11-2017, 02:16 PM
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I just ran the little .30 for another 25 minutes, everything the same:

Saito FA .30 with Xoar 10x6 rpm==9,250, it sounded labored and the HS needle was vague.

Saito FA .30 with Xoar 10x5 rpm==10,440 engine much happier.
Old 12-11-2017, 02:30 PM
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What prop is on the FG-11? I have some issues with mine quitting, so need to pull the back plate off the carb and look for debris.
Old 12-11-2017, 02:33 PM
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The only prop discussed in the instructions is a 13x7, if my memory serves. I don't have any numbers for the FG 11 yet. I think I have some somewhere in these pages.

Last edited by Hobbsy; 12-11-2017 at 02:39 PM.
Old 12-11-2017, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Old Fart
That reminds me.He's mighty proud of the saito fa180hc and whatever other letters he puts behind it,and rightly so,it might be a machining masterpiece but...it's higher strung and you know how many more frequent arguments metal parts can have when they are highly stressed like a beautiful italian woman if you like.So,
My FA-180HC is still utilizing the stock cam and valve train. Increasing compression does not increase the RPM range of the power band, it allows a larger prop, either diameter or pitch to be spun at higher RPM due to increased torque throughout the power band..

High strung you say? does this look like high strung to you? Will your FA-220 idles lower or start easier?




Originally Posted by Old Fart
i reckon a bog stock saito fa 220 zues on nitro with a dash of castor oil would give that 180hc a lazy hiding,what do you think? and please say so.


It may pull a bit more RPM with large propellers, but the advantage will not offset the weigh/size penalties and increased fuel consumption
Old 12-11-2017, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Hobbsy
Speaking of ignition timing, I checked the timing on my Saito FG 11, Saito says it's set at a medium setting. If my equipment doesn't lie it is set at 35 degrees BTDC. It reads the same whether using the stock ignition module or a C&H Ignition Synchro-Spark module That's not exactly medium.
36 degrees BTDC is often considered optimum spark advance for water cooled 4-stroke gasoline engines. Air cooled gasoline engines usually fare better with around 28 degrees due to higher CHTs that promote detonation..

Have you tried reducing the advance to see if it changes any running characteristics?
Old 12-11-2017, 04:30 PM
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No sir, I haven't touched it because until today I hadn't thought about it much until I mentioned the future timing of the 115. So I got curious. It's easy to change, I'll try it a 30 just to get a feel for it.

Below is the idle of my 2.20 with the large carb installed, I couldn't get it that low with the stock carb, which sounds backwards.
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Old 12-11-2017, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Hobbsy
Hey Barry, I just got done doing a couple of things that have been on back burner. I ran my newer Saito .30 with a Graupner 8x6 three blade surprisingly I don't think it's enough prop.
Ambien temp 39 F.
Fuel: Wildcat 10% with 18% full synthetic
Plug====OS-f
Exhaust===90 TS pipe with pressure fitting, it is surprisingly quiet.

Max rpm at first was 10,450, the engine had about 40 minutes on before today.
Max rpm after 45 more minutes 10,940
Idle==very smooth and steady 2,400.
That's a good thing to know Dave. I saw where Jim or somebody was suggesting a 9" prop a while back. I always thought I would try something like a 9x6 just to see how it broke in. That's some Saitos for you- some will hit a point and just smooth out. My 56 didn't do that, it was always a well running engine that just got better and better as time was put on it. I guess it hit a good point for fuel economy around the third tank and the half hour point. I remember that. My 72 was pretty much the same way. The only thing about the 72 was it hit a point where suddenly it had some good power. It went from being a good engine to a great engine one day not long after I broke it in. Guess the little 30's are going to be one that makes jumps in performance. I'll remember your numbers & props. Thanks. I can't remember the max rpm. I tend to favor about 1500 rpm below the max. That's about what I remember the Eagletree telemetry units seemed to show on various engines.
Old 12-11-2017, 06:24 PM
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I ordered 3 Xoar 9x6 props a little while ago, Tower had a threefer 12 bucks and free shipping and I bit.I checked those numbers with two tach's, a Globee and a Hobbico. My Fromeco/TNC bit the dust. They agreed with the GloBee being about 50 rpm optimistic.
Old 12-11-2017, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Hobbsy
I ordered 3 Xoar 9x6 props a little while ago, Tower had a threefer 12 bucks and free shipping and I bit.I checked those numbers with two tach's, a Globee and a Hobbico. My Fromeco/TNC bit the dust. They agreed with the GloBee being about 50 rpm optimistic.
Bad news about the TNC. Any idea what's wrong? Any indications? Those are really accurate and a bit expensive. Maybe it's something easy.
Old 12-11-2017, 06:40 PM
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Thanks Barry, no such luck, when I butchered my fingers I knocked it on the ground and with Geri helping me put the engine away I forgot and it was out in the rain for about a week. I have tried several magic potions to dry it out, but no joy. I bought the TNC back when Don Apostalico of Don's Hobby Shop in Salina, Ks. was selling them for 89 bucks.

I bought one of,those Turnigy's but so far it wants to count revs in the Heli blade range or 200,000 rpm.

Last edited by Hobbsy; 12-11-2017 at 06:45 PM.

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