Initiating Spin Entry
07-18-2005, 03:54 PM
#1
Initiating Spin Entry
OK, I'm new to IMAC and just learing the Basic sequence. I have a 35% Yak with a DA100. Here is one of my many problems. Getting this plane to stall for spin entry. this plane flies so well (slow) that I can get all the way across the box before it even begins to get slow enough to stall. The plane will actually fly quit well at idol. Now part of the problem is that I am still breaking in the engine and I can probably get the idle down lower. But what is a good technique for inducing a stall for spin entry.
07-18-2005, 09:47 PM
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RE: Initiating Spin Entry
More elvator and a left rudder to low throttle mix! It is acceptable for the models nose to pitch upwards provided the flight path is level. Kinda like transitioning from straight & level flight into a harrier (but stall instead of add power) without gaining or losing altitude prior to the stall.
Make sure you aren't too nose heavy. If you are, the model will not likely make a clean break. It may just mush over.
Ryan
Make sure you aren't too nose heavy. If you are, the model will not likely make a clean break. It may just mush over.
Ryan
07-18-2005, 10:36 PM
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RE: Initiating Spin Entry
IMAC rules state that the nose must drop before rotation starts. Some planes will do this on their own while others like straight wing Edges hang on forever.
Two seperate things here to discus. First is getting the plane slowed down in a reasonable amount of time. The easiest way to do this is do a BIG Immelman before the spin. Make it large and your speed will naturally be lower and you can reduce throttle before you level out and perform the half roll.
My main Imac plane is pretty Draggy so it slows down nice, and I don't throttle back until I roll upright, but as soon as I do, the throttle is chopped and then feed in more up elevator to hold the line straight and then pull more to get the stall to break where wanted. The box is zoneless so positioning wise, it does not have to be in the center. When the nose falls rudder comes in and the spin begins.
Practice this a few times and you will get it. If your plane does not break, just falls over, then you will have to learn how to "make it appear to break", ie. feed in quick down elevator before the rudder and back full elevator.
Practice practice
chip
Two seperate things here to discus. First is getting the plane slowed down in a reasonable amount of time. The easiest way to do this is do a BIG Immelman before the spin. Make it large and your speed will naturally be lower and you can reduce throttle before you level out and perform the half roll.
My main Imac plane is pretty Draggy so it slows down nice, and I don't throttle back until I roll upright, but as soon as I do, the throttle is chopped and then feed in more up elevator to hold the line straight and then pull more to get the stall to break where wanted. The box is zoneless so positioning wise, it does not have to be in the center. When the nose falls rudder comes in and the spin begins.
Practice this a few times and you will get it. If your plane does not break, just falls over, then you will have to learn how to "make it appear to break", ie. feed in quick down elevator before the rudder and back full elevator.
Practice practice
chip
07-18-2005, 11:33 PM
#6
RE: Initiating Spin Entry
thanks all. Chip, yes I have decided next time out I got to make the immelman bigger and chop the throttle sooner. My CG is pretty good because she flies hands off inverted. It's just that this bird flies so light I think I am going to have to get through this engine break-in period and get the idle down as low as I can.
07-19-2005, 12:20 AM
#7
RE: Initiating Spin Entry
I have a hard time getting my World Models Patty to break. It will also fly almost all the way across the box before finally dropping the nose.
I'm slowly applying elevator--more and more--slowly. My plane just looses altitude--but the nose never rises or falls. The plane just mushes down and looses altitude.
By the time it finally does stall and drop the nose--I have to SLAM in my left rudder and try to get my spins in before the plane meets terra firma. It drops FAST during the spins. Then level out about 50' above the dirt and add power. For me--big pucker everytime.[X(]
I do as suggested earlier--cut my throttle sooner. I'm also trying to exit my last maneuver at a higher altitude to compensate.
I'm slowly applying elevator--more and more--slowly. My plane just looses altitude--but the nose never rises or falls. The plane just mushes down and looses altitude.
By the time it finally does stall and drop the nose--I have to SLAM in my left rudder and try to get my spins in before the plane meets terra firma. It drops FAST during the spins. Then level out about 50' above the dirt and add power. For me--big pucker everytime.[X(]
I do as suggested earlier--cut my throttle sooner. I'm also trying to exit my last maneuver at a higher altitude to compensate.
07-19-2005, 05:19 AM
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RE: Initiating Spin Entry
I have a similar problem with my WM patty. It will just hang there the almost go into a elevator before it stalls. Then when it does stall it drops like a rock. I almost lost it a few times when I didn't do a big enough immelman. I had to bail out after 1 1/2 turns as it would have spin to the ground. VERY SCAREY....................
07-19-2005, 07:28 AM
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RE: Initiating Spin Entry
First of all I too am a Basic pilot this year, but have a very good instructor for learning proper IMAC flying. What I have been thought is that the manuvers that are in the center of the aresti are to be "center box", regardless of the zoneless box. This was also mentioned at the judging seminar in Muncie that I went to. So I always try to make my spin, loop, and 180 turn (basic class) in the center or right in front of me and the judges.
That being said if you are way down at the other end of the box before the plane is ready to stall, you need to you need to make your box bigger. Splais may have an idle issue that is working against him but the rest of us sould be spinning in front of the judges.
I am flying a plane that just doesn't show a clean break either. I know when it has stalled so I then initiate the spin....zero....no clean break. During my last IMAC my last two spins were zeroed due to what looked to the judges as a forced entry. Since then I have added more up elevator with good results. Just before the plane stalls full elevator is applied so that the nose pitches up(as mentioned before) but not enough to lose my line or gain altitude. Only then does it show a hint of break, hopefully enough to convince the judges.
That being said if you are way down at the other end of the box before the plane is ready to stall, you need to you need to make your box bigger. Splais may have an idle issue that is working against him but the rest of us sould be spinning in front of the judges.
I am flying a plane that just doesn't show a clean break either. I know when it has stalled so I then initiate the spin....zero....no clean break. During my last IMAC my last two spins were zeroed due to what looked to the judges as a forced entry. Since then I have added more up elevator with good results. Just before the plane stalls full elevator is applied so that the nose pitches up(as mentioned before) but not enough to lose my line or gain altitude. Only then does it show a hint of break, hopefully enough to convince the judges.
07-19-2005, 08:35 AM
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RE: Initiating Spin Entry
ORIGINAL: Rcpilet
I have a hard time getting my World Models Patty to break. It will also fly almost all the way across the box before finally dropping the nose.
I'm slowly applying elevator--more and more--slowly. My plane just looses altitude--but the nose never rises or falls. The plane just mushes down and looses altitude.
By the time it finally does stall and drop the nose--I have to SLAM in my left rudder and try to get my spins in before the plane meets terra firma. It drops FAST during the spins. Then level out about 50' above the dirt and add power. For me--big pucker everytime.[X(]
I do as suggested earlier--cut my throttle sooner. I'm also trying to exit my last maneuver at a higher altitude to compensate.
I have a hard time getting my World Models Patty to break. It will also fly almost all the way across the box before finally dropping the nose.
I'm slowly applying elevator--more and more--slowly. My plane just looses altitude--but the nose never rises or falls. The plane just mushes down and looses altitude.
By the time it finally does stall and drop the nose--I have to SLAM in my left rudder and try to get my spins in before the plane meets terra firma. It drops FAST during the spins. Then level out about 50' above the dirt and add power. For me--big pucker everytime.[X(]
I do as suggested earlier--cut my throttle sooner. I'm also trying to exit my last maneuver at a higher altitude to compensate.
Ryan
07-19-2005, 09:43 AM
#11
RE: Initiating Spin Entry
ORIGINAL: Ryans Rebel
Add the elevator faster. From Neutral to full deflection should take no more than 5 seconds or so. This is a trick that I use. The nose will pitch up a bit but what you are doing is stopping the forward airspeed causing the model to have to stall. Feeding it in slowly is asking to see how slow the model will fly. The elevator needs to be feed in faster.
Ryan
ORIGINAL: Rcpilet
I have a hard time getting my World Models Patty to break. It will also fly almost all the way across the box before finally dropping the nose.
I'm slowly applying elevator--more and more--slowly. My plane just looses altitude--but the nose never rises or falls. The plane just mushes down and looses altitude.
By the time it finally does stall and drop the nose--I have to SLAM in my left rudder and try to get my spins in before the plane meets terra firma. It drops FAST during the spins. Then level out about 50' above the dirt and add power. For me--big pucker everytime.[X(]
I do as suggested earlier--cut my throttle sooner. I'm also trying to exit my last maneuver at a higher altitude to compensate.
I have a hard time getting my World Models Patty to break. It will also fly almost all the way across the box before finally dropping the nose.
I'm slowly applying elevator--more and more--slowly. My plane just looses altitude--but the nose never rises or falls. The plane just mushes down and looses altitude.
By the time it finally does stall and drop the nose--I have to SLAM in my left rudder and try to get my spins in before the plane meets terra firma. It drops FAST during the spins. Then level out about 50' above the dirt and add power. For me--big pucker everytime.[X(]
I do as suggested earlier--cut my throttle sooner. I'm also trying to exit my last maneuver at a higher altitude to compensate.
Ryan
07-19-2005, 12:35 PM
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RE: Initiating Spin Entry
You should not get down graded if the nose rises only if you gain altitude. What Ryan explained is exactly what I have to do in order to get my yak to break otherwise is will slowly mush forward...Jonas
07-19-2005, 12:57 PM
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RE: Initiating Spin Entry
Ryan has got it on the nose. You have to apply elevator faster not so fast the plane gains in altitude but fast enough so that you can get the nose up high like high alpha flight. Then when the plane stalls the nose comes down and you initiate the autorotation. Do not wait to long to start pulling. if you wait to long the nose will not come up. This takes alot of practice because every plane is different and you must know your plane and be able to judge its speed well.
Good luck
Tony Fandino
Good luck
Tony Fandino
07-19-2005, 02:10 PM
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RE: Initiating Spin Entry
Don't Fret guy's just go out and fly and remember " the clearest presentation of the geometry" . It looks better in the center .
[
]
Tony Fandino
[
]Tony Fandino
07-20-2005, 07:05 AM
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RE: Initiating Spin Entry
You had stated in an early post that the aircraft will fly inverted, hands off, that more than likely is the problem, its tail heavy. Tail heavy aircraft do not break well for spins and snaps. There is a common misconception that your aircraft should be neutral for both upright and inverted flight, this is incorrect, and you should have a little push for inverted flight. For sequence flight the CG should be about 25-27% MAC, if you set CG in this range your spins and snaps will be much cleaner, knife-edge flight will require less mix and landing will be easier.
What happens in an aircraft with an aft CG, as you approach stall speed, the nose and tail both tend to fall, mush, and not easily break into a spin. If the CG is forward, the nose breaks first and autorotation follows with rudder or rudder and aileron. The same forward CG works for high speed stalls (snaps), the nose breaks clean; the aircraft auto rotates and stops better on heading.
These statements are not based on my expertise, but with conversations and assistance in setting up my own aircraft with Dave von Linsowe and George Hicks.
Hope this helps and works for you,
Tom Wheeler
What happens in an aircraft with an aft CG, as you approach stall speed, the nose and tail both tend to fall, mush, and not easily break into a spin. If the CG is forward, the nose breaks first and autorotation follows with rudder or rudder and aileron. The same forward CG works for high speed stalls (snaps), the nose breaks clean; the aircraft auto rotates and stops better on heading.
These statements are not based on my expertise, but with conversations and assistance in setting up my own aircraft with Dave von Linsowe and George Hicks.
Hope this helps and works for you,
Tom Wheeler
07-20-2005, 08:04 AM
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RE: Initiating Spin Entry
ORIGINAL: IMAC Pres
You had stated in an early post that the aircraft will fly inverted, hands off, that more than likely is the problem, its tail heavy. Tail heavy aircraft do not break well for spins and snaps. There is a common misconception that your aircraft should be neutral for both upright and inverted flight, this is incorrect, and you should have a little push for inverted flight. For sequence flight the CG should be about 25-27% MAC, if you set CG in this range your spins and snaps will be much cleaner, knife-edge flight will require less mix and landing will be easier.
What happens in an aircraft with an aft CG, as you approach stall speed, the nose and tail both tend to fall, mush, and not easily break into a spin. If the CG is forward, the nose breaks first and autorotation follows with rudder or rudder and aileron. The same forward CG works for high speed stalls (snaps), the nose breaks clean; the aircraft auto rotates and stops better on heading.
These statements are not based on my expertise, but with conversations and assistance in setting up my own aircraft with Dave von Linsowe and George Hicks.
Hope this helps and works for you,
Tom Wheeler
You had stated in an early post that the aircraft will fly inverted, hands off, that more than likely is the problem, its tail heavy. Tail heavy aircraft do not break well for spins and snaps. There is a common misconception that your aircraft should be neutral for both upright and inverted flight, this is incorrect, and you should have a little push for inverted flight. For sequence flight the CG should be about 25-27% MAC, if you set CG in this range your spins and snaps will be much cleaner, knife-edge flight will require less mix and landing will be easier.
What happens in an aircraft with an aft CG, as you approach stall speed, the nose and tail both tend to fall, mush, and not easily break into a spin. If the CG is forward, the nose breaks first and autorotation follows with rudder or rudder and aileron. The same forward CG works for high speed stalls (snaps), the nose breaks clean; the aircraft auto rotates and stops better on heading.
These statements are not based on my expertise, but with conversations and assistance in setting up my own aircraft with Dave von Linsowe and George Hicks.
Hope this helps and works for you,
Tom Wheeler
My simple mind just looks at it like this.
Tail heavy planes fly like poo.
07-20-2005, 08:18 AM
#19
RE: Initiating Spin Entry
Wow, now things are starting to get interesting. Soooo if I want to fly both 3D and IMAC I got to live with a compromise CG. Right now my plane is set up for 3D, which it does well. If I want to optimize my IMAC flying I need to set my plane up with two different battery locations (which I already have) and get some weight forward for IMAC flying. I'll try it this weekend and see if it helps the spin entry. As I stated in another thread I have a 28% Extra I'm setting up for 3D. Now I guess I know why a guy at our field last winter had two planes. One he always flew 3D with and one he flew IMAC with. Never got around to asking him why. Thanks.
07-20-2005, 08:36 AM
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RE: Initiating Spin Entry
Splais,
Funny you mention 3D when talking about this. I was going to post this in my last post but 3D wasnt really being talked about here.
I firmly believe that properly set up, 3D capable designed plane, does not need to have an AFT CG to 3D well.
None of the planes I fly 3D with have a rear CG.
If a plane needs an AFT CG to do 3D something is wrong. Or, the AFT CG is compensating for design or set up issues.
Funny you mention 3D when talking about this. I was going to post this in my last post but 3D wasnt really being talked about here.
I firmly believe that properly set up, 3D capable designed plane, does not need to have an AFT CG to 3D well.
None of the planes I fly 3D with have a rear CG.
If a plane needs an AFT CG to do 3D something is wrong. Or, the AFT CG is compensating for design or set up issues.
07-20-2005, 09:16 AM
#21
RE: Initiating Spin Entry
We are kind of getting off topic; but I think the term "aft CG" really doesn't mean anything. Aft of what? Each plane has an optimum CG for whatever you are going to do with it. But I am in way over my head here. I like the hands off inverted flight because you know you just have to do things lower and lower to the ground. With my limited skills, it makes things a lot nicer when you don't have to worry about a momentary slip putting you in the dirt. Besides, I love making a low inverted pass and right in front of the pits take my hand off the radio and scratch my butt 
But I see now that I am in for a lot more reading and practicing.
But I see now that I am in for a lot more reading and practicing.
07-20-2005, 10:57 AM
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RE: Initiating Spin Entry
Here is a great article on trimming your plane correctly by Peter Goldsmith.
http://www.mini-iac.com/Portals/57ad...20trimming.pdf
-Toyse
QQ 102 Yak is on order
http://www.mini-iac.com/Portals/57ad...20trimming.pdf
-Toyse
QQ 102 Yak is on order
07-20-2005, 12:08 PM
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RE: Initiating Spin Entry
ORIGINAL: chipwill
IMAC rules state that the nose must drop before rotation starts. Some planes will do this on their own while others like straight wing Edges hang on forever.
IMAC rules state that the nose must drop before rotation starts. Some planes will do this on their own while others like straight wing Edges hang on forever.
Please see page F&JG-42 for the discussion of this in the rules.
07-20-2005, 07:01 PM
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RE: Initiating Spin Entry
ORIGINAL: wgeffon
I firmly believe that properly set up, 3D capable designed plane, does not need to have an AFT CG to 3D well.
None of the planes I fly 3D with have a rear CG.
If a plane needs an AFT CG to do 3D something is wrong. Or, the AFT CG is compensating for design or set up issues.
I firmly believe that properly set up, 3D capable designed plane, does not need to have an AFT CG to 3D well.
None of the planes I fly 3D with have a rear CG.
If a plane needs an AFT CG to do 3D something is wrong. Or, the AFT CG is compensating for design or set up issues.