I have nothing against an ARF at all, it's just that I don't like to have cookie cutter planes just like everyone else has. I prefer building from plans so I have something nice and different. Yes, kits are leaving the shelfs and being replaced with ARFs so it wouldn't hurt to start buying and stockpiling . There are still some very nice kit makers out there that also offer short kits. They also offer some planes that were never offered in kit form before. Quality is better then ever with CAD design and laser cutting they come out straight and with better scale and shape. Just look through some magazines and there is A whole new world of building out there. Just higher prices for the better kits.

Kelldog--

I basically agree with everything you say except I didn't mean to suggest that people don't have time to build a plane and therefore should buy an ARF. Free time is a finite commodity and many people choose not to use it building a kit. I am not saying this is good or bad. I certainly agree that there is much more personal satisfaction in flying an airplane that was built from a kit than an ARF. To summarize what I was trying to say is (my opinion only) is that ARFs are not killing the kit building aspect of our hobby but supplementing it. I ask you this -- Do you think that kit building would be better off if there were no ARFs available? Do you think we would have the selection of radios, servos, and engines we have today if it were not for the increased volume of sales to suppliers created by the ARF market? If you do that is fine.

Your comment "Their is ALOT more guys leaving the hobby because of being bored from lack of involvment buying a china arf!" I do not understand -- If someone does not like ARFs they do not have to buy them. There are many more kits available than I will be able to build in a life time. Why would I stop enjoying my hobby because of the availability ARFs. Possibly you are referring to the lack of social involvement (clubs, etc) because of the lack like minded builders. If this is the case I would agree with you it is probably less interesting at the field when everyone is flying a 4*.

Anyway this is my opinion and I am not asking anyone to change theirs I just wanted to voice an opinion that some may have not considered.


Best regards and Happy Holidays--
Mark

Minhoff, I too do not want to shove my opinion down some ones throat and say this is the way its gotta be!!! But here we go again with the on going debate of the arf verse kit. In my thoughts just flying a arf is a SPORT!!!!! Spending extra relaxing time, knitting,sewing,model railroading,carving wood,building and FLYING airplanes IS A HOBBY!!! Flying arfs has been great for the SPORT! BUT! Please dont tell me it has been great for the hobby! Pick up any rc magazine and thumb through them front to back and tell me what you see. Dont blame the mfg because they are in it to make money like any one else. Kits today have VERY HEAVY CHEAP BALSA. Not all. Selection gets smaller every day.For 80 bucks one can throw together one of the best planes ever, a sig kougar with solid tail feathers and foam sheeted wings faster then a arf. But ya no what? Its not on the front pages of magazines.ARFS ARE! God bless the guys when arfs help them fly and enjoy the sport!! But im a telling ya Min ya going to have to cut your own balsa trees and totally scratch build to enjoy model aviation if it keeps going the course. A father and son might not be EXPOSED TO THE OPPORTUNITY to experience their first flight of something they themselves made in this hobby. Arfs are killing the hobby. KELLDOG

OH YEA what holiday are you referring to. Would it be CHRISTmas.

The ARF mentality has certainly changed the outlook on the hobby. New guys show up all the time with little appreciation of what it takes to fly these things. I believe that they tend to view them as toys. I'm okay with the toy view as long as they don't put a glow engine and turning prop on the end of it! I've almost been hurt pretty bad by these guys who have no clue that these are serious model planes. I've seen a couple of guys fly and crash, only to hit the hobby shop for another one. They go thru planes like there's millions of them....hmm, maybe there are.... Anyway, I really don't like seeing people being callous towards the hobby. It doesn't seem right to view model planes as being disposable and replaceable overnight.

I'm way into building kits and as I said earlier I'm not a big ARF fan. But yesterday at the field I ran across a guy who had an intersting situation that pertains to this topic with a slightly different twist. He and his son built a .40 Sig Kadet and began to get flight training... I flew with them on the buddy box several times. Anyway, they decided to try to fly it themselves and ended up crashing the plane. Not a total loss but it will take a month or so for them to get it back to flying condition with work and school. So he went out and bought an ARF to get them flying quickly, he's afraid his son might lose interest if it takes too long to get back in the air. The ARF gets them flying now. I think that's a pretty good reason to buy an ARF.. Plus they also get to spend time rebuilding the Kadet... And his dad was asking me if I would give him pointers on building a Top Flite P47 kit.... Sounds like he wants to fly NOW but learn to build kits too.... Could be a healthy niche for the ARF.

270

I have just returned to the hobby after 30 plus years. Want to talk about changes....
The first thing I did was get a new radio set up 72MHz, nice computer job boy, beats what we used to have. Got a set of servos and receiver with it. this stuff is a lot lighter and smaller. I like to build as much as fly but I have to be honest I am not in love with the ARF's just two were enough to convince me that kits or scratch is the way to go. I have one plane I have been working on for two years now that will be ready this spring. And three scatch builts in line to follow a couple of Kit trainers I am building for my Wife and Daughter. I want them to have planes that will fly nice to learn on. There are a lot of kits and plans, out there want to build a B-17 look at the wingspan kit. Want A nice scale plane lots of plans an kitters out there just look them up on the web. Personaly I am getting into the new composite materials to enhance my balsa models. Next plane will be about 50/50 for the old to new materials, yes a lot of the old kit guys are gone but still a lot of choices if you want to build as opposed to the bricks they sell as ARF. Not to mention it is much easier to fix it when you built it in the first place....
And if anybody laughs at what you build, just tell them anybody can spend money.

Now don't get me wrong, ARfs are nice way to have a plane in the air fast, did it myself last vacation I had, was flying had a brain fade an went gopher (wood chucks we call them here) hunting with the girls Nextstar had a few days left with nothing easy to fly went and got an ARF trainer to play with as a fun fly, and to replace their trainer. Will teach me about doing aerobatics with someone elses plane. lol

Kelldog---

I concede that I lumped both flying and building as a Hobby and not as a Sport and a Hobby. I tend to think of the use of leisure time for pursuits such as RC a Hobby. Your definition is certainly more precise. On the rest I think we just need to agree to disagree. You believe "ARFs are killing the hobby". I believe it is the age of "instant gratification", X-Box, Internet, etc that are killing building hobby and not the ARFs. I think ARFs are just the commercial response to the decline in building.


On a happier note it was a beautiful day to fly in South Texas.

Mark

Hmmm. Yea, that's a pretty accurate observation I think. This dad is worried that his son (14yrs old) can't wait 30 days to rebuild a plane HE crashed... There's the olbviou need for immediate gratification in the younger generation. Yet the dad wants to build a relatively complex kit and develop the skills to do become a builder. He's hoping the son will gain interest in building by seeing this P47 go from a box of sticks to a flying model. I think once a person gets to own and fly a stick built plane there's a noticeable difference.
anyway, just my thoughts.

270

270WIN--

I suspect that the current need for "instant gratification" has had an impact on all "craft" type hobbies. I also do some model railroading and there appears to be less and less craft type kits being marketed each year and being replaced with pre-built structures. I have a couple of kids that have no interest in any building skills in the traditional hobby sense but are outstanding at building web sites and have other computer skills that bogle the mind. I won't express an opinion if I feel this is good or bad -- because my opinion doesn't really matter.

As time marches on I do understand why kids today may not get excited about seeing a P47 on the box (or a steam engine for that matter) each new generation is that much further away from the point in history that those type aircraft existed. My kids have never known a time without personal computers, jet aircraft, spacecraft etc. so it takes a lot to impress them. I think your son may relate more to F-117, B-2, A-10 type aircraft since they are more contemporary. Just like I relate to WWII aircraft and my grandfather related to WWI aircraft.

Anyway enough of my rambling.

I think this thread should probably die -- or be moved. I did not initialy realize that this thread was in the "kit forum" and I believe the purpose of the "kit forum" is for more specific kit building issues and not Kit vs ARF discussions that probably belong in the "clubhouse forum". I apologize to the moderators for perpetuating the discusion in this forum.


Happy Holidays to All



Mark

Some big kit maunfactures have indeed gone away, although I notice that Sig is and Top Flite are still out there. I like Sterling but some of there kit were boderline when flown. Anyhow, if you do a internet search for kits I thing you can find far more kits then you could in the 60"s. Building is something that you have to want to do, kit or scratch. ARF's will never kill that, lots of people prefer to build and some like the quick fix, there will allways be builders even if kits go away. Speaking for myself I like to build, taking sticks and building a flying machine will never be replaced by an out of the box airplane.....

i too have been away for awhile.. but i'm back and love'n it.. it was a great summer of fly'n my old planes. well now it's winter so i was thinking a kit.. so i go to my favorite lhs to get one.. and they too looked @ me like i only had one eye & it was in the middle of my head where my brain used to be.. NO KITS. not even one, said they had sold all the kits @ a swap meet cause they would'ent sell .but they had pleanty of arf's, even tried to talk me into one because there built so well, and a kit will cost more, and take longer to build..ect.ect.ect.... well i ordered a kit online (i do love the electronic age and it"s gonna be a good winter of building... even w/ just one eye in the middle of my head...merry christmas and build on

Hey you could have bought that arf and still had a kit,Every one I have bought (I am a builder but my wife has bought me a couple as a gift) (some gift)haha but when you get it home you have to strip it down and rebuild it anyway so I guess we can say they are kits or rekits lol

CTDave-
It's funny you mention that. I've done that with several ARFs. As it turns out, by the time you strip them, reinforce them and get them up to par you could just about build a full kit and have a better airplane in the end too.

When I first got back into it I really was excited to see all the ARFs that are available. Then I bought several... Blah blah blah...

Merry Christmas guys!!

270win

ARF - Almost Ready to Fail. Ha, thats funny!

I think I can do a better job building than some 10 year old slave labor chinese kid can. Just look at the junk quality of most of Walmart's products, makes sense that an ARF made in similar quality to sell for as much profit as possible would be prone to shoddy construction and failure. I guess an ARF is really a quick fix / stop gap solution.

Think About it...

If you buy an arf.... and you own it technically because you have the receipt.

Do you really have that feeling of satisfaction??

But if you create it. Then it truely is yours, even without a receipt.

Dare to Build.......

Anybody can Buy.......

I know cause I purchased an arf this summer, But the other 8 aircraft are really mine.

Cheers

Doug in Denver

Like so many of the kit builders here, I started in the hobby a couple of decades ago. I don't mind that most of the fliers now don't build their own aircraft. That's up to them and their art.

Our club has some exceptional pilots, who don't build their aircraft. I've also seen some exceptional builders who can't fly worth a damn.

For me - I am not willing to compromise on the building of my aircraft. I don't like cowls that strap over the front of the fuselage. It reminds me of something obseen. Similarly, I don't like canopies that seem to be slapped on as an afterthought. I like to do my hinges the way I do them - streamlined. If there were ARFs out there that were built the way I build, I'd buy.

It's starting to bug me the way some bring ARFs to a club meeting to show them off and people fawn over them as if they've done something remarkable.

What really irritates me is that I keep running into those who are calling ARFs "Kits". I've been in more than one store where I've been shown the new Kits, only to find a stack of nothing but ARFs.

I would like people to know that even though my aircraft isn't finished in a saggy but dazzling color scheme, it was built entirely by me. I think that deserves a little more respect. I know that is asking too much. It would really be nice for modelers to at least know the difference between a Kit and an ARF.

Here I am writing on a forum instead of finishing an arf or a kit. Have to put the kids to bed first. I'm getting back into the hobby and picking up plans and some kits. Arf's aren't to bad, if I have to get into the air quickly. I spend more time searching out model tips and planes while surfing the net. The only reason I wanted to have a pc in the first place was to run a cad program to design my own airplanes.

I just chuckle when I see the gallery here on the site and it loaded with arfs. Give me a break.

i'm not from the old school in rc'n so my experience is somewhat limited.however i personally would not have entered into this hobby had there not been any arfs out there to lead me into this GREAT hobby.now that i have some experience with them i must say that between a arf and a kit i choose the kit hands down to the arf's out there. seams that arfs are week in places that should be strong, and have heaver wood in places that should not.so far i have only built kits from great planes,cg,lanier,tower,sig,and my current build tf .[sm=punching.gif] < my spouse's thought to my second childhood haha.any way this was just my thoughts about this subject.tks for reading mike

one thing i have learned about my short term existance in this hobby is there is always room for people to complain about arf vs kit, kit vs scratch, and the true meaning of scratchbuilding. its allright to hear peoples opinions but sometimes people get too carried away. now what are you guys doing posting here go build a kit

Yes, the hobby is going through a period of change, but I'm a bit more optimistic about the future of kit building than many of the "doom and gloom" people out there. Yes, many of the old kitmakers are gone. Some will be sorely missed, others will be missed like a sore tooth. Those who survive or replace them are those who are taking advantage of new technologies. They're putting out some really exciting stuff.
Just look at a few of the kits put out by people like Page Aviation, Fun Aero or Mosquito Bite Planes ( to mention only a few). Laser cut parts that actually fit without sanding or trimming. Parts that fit together so that the model stays straight. Good quality wood, cowls that actually fit, and sometimes you actually get instructions you can understand!!!
As a believer in the cyclical nature of thiings, I can see a point where people will get tired of ARFS and start building so that their plane is different than all the other ones at the field. Plus, when you build a kit, you control the final quality.

papermache

Thought this might be interesting to share here. I was at the field talking to a retired gentleman answering questions about building a kit. He has been flying planes for about 4-5 years (I think) never built one, buys only arfs and used planes people are selling. He is also has the mind that why build and fly months down the road when you can buy an arf and fly in a couple of evenings. Anyways, at the end of the conversation he commented that for the effort he has put in to building the wing he now has a new appreciation for those who build their own models.

I have only been flying a few years but I can already see what all the old-timers and die-hard kit builders are complaining about. Looking back since I started I can think of tons of ARFs that have hit the market. Kits, on the other hand, have been disappearing. The manufacturers have not simply just jumped on the ARF bandwagon, they have started to completely ignore a portion of the market that is still a viable source of income.

Think about it. Would it not make sense if you are a manufacturer to occasionally put out a new kit that attempts to capitalize on the current craze in the hobby??? I have yet to see a new 3-D capable kit come out from one of the big manufacturers despite a huge 3-D craze in recent years. How often do we see someone ask on these forums if one of the GP Extras is 3-D capable or not. Why not redesign the kit to keep up with the current trends? They could also simply update and rerelease kits they sold in the past and discontinued. This would keep their linup fresh and you would have built-in demand from builders who either built the plane in the past and liked it or always wanted to but never had the opportunity. Heck, why not put out more kits that are already available in ARF form... The tooling and design stage of the process are already paid for.

With fewer kits on the market there is also a decrease in competion for the kit builders dollar. Instead of the big manufacturers figuring this out they are leaving the door open for smaller, often times completely new manufacturers to get into the market. To me the presence of ARFs isn't disturbing - its the total lack of attention given to the kit-building crowd that bothers me. If flyers are giving up the hobby because they are bored I'd say its a combination of the lack of interesting new kits as much as ARFs not providing the same personal satisfaction as building a kit. In my opinion, the big manufacturers are missing the boat!

i don't think that kit building is actually on the decline,i don't see many choices in the hobby shops.i went looking for kits at the two main HS we have here and they had the same kits they have had for the last year or two,less what was sold.i asked the owner why he doesn't stock as many kits he says oh i can order them,then the kits i ask to be ordered he says that one is not available anymore.everything else in there was an arf.don't get me wrong arf's have their place in this Hobie,one person said he puts them together in between builds.i don't see any arc's in my Hobie shops either.so you are basically stuck with something made on an assembly line and unless you want to strip the covering and redo it you are forced into flying what advertisement or color scheme they have at the time.i enjoy building as much as flying,i get my family involved with this hobby is one reason it is fun for me.and people say i don't have the time,an hour or so every couple days is the best therapy.i know not every one has the temperament for building but try to build just one kit before you say i cant or don't have the time you will be rewarded.