Bob,
This time I disagree! Building a kit takes alot more skill than putting tail feathers and wings together. Plus I end up always modifying my kits. I do build from scratch and cut my own parts like you, but really isn't that about the same thing as a kit. The only difference I see is it's more time consuming. If you can cut balsa like you do when you build a stick built kit you can surely cut around a rib or what ever other part you need.

If you reread my post you will note I have built kits for most of my life... At least for 40 years so repair an ARF is not much of a challenge... If I was wealthy I could afford to buy the kits... As it is ARF's are much more affordable with better quality parts (fiberglass vs plastic) then kits... I don't build my own radio's, engines etc either...

Build........................ To form by combining material or parts ; construct

Assemble................. To fit together the parts or pieces of

After researching the definitions of these two words, I find that neither word sufficiently describes "kit built" or "scratch built" or "plans built". So, for the sake of clarity, can we all please agree to stay with the accepted terminology.

Good point PilotFighter!!! It's like saying a carpenter that builds homes with plans and lumber isn't a builder. After all he doesn't go out and cut down trees to get his lumber, it's at the lumber yard. Tell him he just assembles! That would really pi.. him off. On the other hand a pre-manufactured home that comes in two or three pieces isn't a build, it's an "Almost ready to live in" All a few guys have to do is assemble it. Which one do you think is better? I know I would not buy a pre-manufactured home.

Gibbs

So one could say that putting a kit, ARF or my grandaughters toys together is assembly... They all three involve connecting point A to point B etc... It would seem the Scratch Builders are the real atrists... Tre rest of us are just assembling prefabbed parts....

NO! Your accepted terminology is not the accepted terminology of this hobby. Mirriam Webster did not build Model Airplanes. Why not accept the definitions that someone such Jim Messer or other top flight builders of multiple generations accepts. You are flying in the face of tradition. Traditionally, if you scratch build, you draw the plan, cut your parts and build. If you plans build, you buy your plan, or copy them or borrow them. You cut your parts and build. If you kit build, you purchase the plans and parts and build. You assemble ARF's.

I have never seen a model built from Ziroli plans that didn't call the model a Ziroli Corsair or whatever. You don't scratch buiild using someone elses plans. Never have, never will.

Bill, AMA 4720

Nope again... Nguyen Schwartz cut out your parts, flued them together (mostly with hot glue) and covered the pieces for you. You glued the wing halves together, glued the tailfeathers on, mounted the engine and radio system. Your investment: perhaps 30 hours. My kit built model: several hundred hours. I am the one that ensures that the parts are straight, true and plumb. Not Mr. Nguyen. I have to sand my own built airframe before covering. You do not. I have to weigh both wing panels to ensure that the model will balance along the roll axis. You do not. There is a vast difference between your ARF, and my kit build. Why are you not expostulating your particular brand of B.S. in the ARF forum where it belongs? I love you Brother, but you are pushing the buttons again.

Bill, AMA 4720

Sounds like things are getting NASTY!!! Everyone play nice together!

Gibbs

I guess that there are a great many ways to look at it and each way would be based on who you were talking to. If person has never built he may consider the assembly of an ARF building which is where the problem is found. If you go by this rule then a kit would either be built or assembled and a scratch builder would be building. This can be very confusing if you base it on different point of views.

Bob

This is a quote from "bingo field" on the maiden of the Venture 60 he built;

"Thank you. I kept hearing how it was different when you put it all together yourself, I think I found the "feeling". I have put together a number of arf's, maidening them was different. It's a little more intense, maybe I think it's because you tend to scrutinize your own work differently, hold it to a different standard, than if you maiden an arf. I looked at it like, at a factory, they hammer these things out relentlessly, and once the first quantity are built, they all have a certain sameness about them. Not that it's a bad thing, but for the people putting them together, there is no feeling for it. For myself, it was part of a learning experience for that length of time, and each piece was touched by me, sanded glued and covered by me. Finally, it was flown by Me. A balsa epiphany...."

I guess this puts it into words that we can all understand.

Bob

Bob,

This argument has been discussed in various venues for years. The accepted definitions by those who have, and do use the different methods are, again as follows:

Scratch building: You design the model, and you draw your own plans (or use the tree method) you cut your own parts, and you build your model.

Plan building: You use the plan that someone else drew. You cut your own parts. You build the model.

Kit building: You use the plan that someone else drew. You have someone cut the parts, or purchase the parts. You build the model.

ARF: You finis assembling the sub-assemblies that someone else build and covered.

Do I need to specify the difference between an ARF, and an ARC? If so, I will be glad to.

If you use a plan that Jim Messer drew, and if you build a piper cub from that plan, the correct terminology for that model is: A Jim Messer piper cub.

If you use a plan that Nick Ziroli drew, and build a Corsair, then the correct terminology for that model is: A Nick Ziroli Corsair.

If you have Mace Gill Cut the parts and make up a kit from the Nick Ziroli plan, the correct terminology for the model is: A Ziroli Corsair cut by the Aeroplane Works.

You never take credit that is not due you in this hobby. Stating that you scratch built a model indicates that you did all the work. Failing to give credit to the designer or draftsman is at least Plagerism, and may violate copyright statutes. Plus, It's downright dishonest.

Think i'm wrong? Take the time to read the captions in any model publication, or look at the results of any sanctioned contest.

That ain't just my opinion, That's the truth.

Bill, AMA 4720

Scratch building from plans or scratch building from plans you drew. It really doesn't matter considering the differences of that vs assembling a few pieces of an ARF.

I agree with NCIS in that I always do some changing to my way of building the kits. I never build them 100% per plans.

I know that the fiberglass and plastic cowls. canopies, etc on ARFs are not always good quality. To be honest, all I've seen is junk myself. If you want to talk about cheap linkage parts, that would be ARFs.

As I said earlier in this thread, I have several ARF's that I fly, some for learning and some for Sundays. I am in the process of finishing a Venture 60 which is my first build. I have"bashed" the kit in several areas which will make it different from the other Ventures out there. It has been hard enough to learn how to build from a kit and mistakes have been made although I was able to make them right. Building from scratch is not something I think I want to do due to the fact of not having someone willing and able to guide my work at the start. I understand about plans, who has drawn them and who has cut the parts so I don't think I need a detailed explaination for that. What I stated was that someone (not me) that has never built a plane could consider the assembly of an ARF a build if they don't understand the process as stated in the previous post by Stickbuilder.

Boy, I've been working too late tonight. I just spent 15 minutes typing a reply here, then blew it away. Let me try again before my boss or smebody shows up.

I think anybody who has read my previous replies should understand that while I prefer kit, plan, and scratch built models, I think there is a very definite place in this Hobby/sport for the ARFs and RTFs. I might even buy a couple more if they ever get to match the quality of assembly I put into mine, which is definitely not a master builder level, but good enough that nothing falls apart in the air or in a normal landing.

I have had more than a few over the last 50+ years (ARFs are not new - - there were some available even before WW2) not all of which were even remotely flyable. They are getting better.

Without ARFs, I wouldn't have been able to do what I just did a half hour ago during a break at work. I flew an RTF helicopter an E-Flite Blade CX. It was my first flight on any kind of RC heli, except for a Kyosho Hyperflite. I have built and flown a number of rubber powered FF helis, though.

I may not ever get another helicopter, but I just felt I had to try the challenge of one. This RTF gave me that chance. After the battery cools down, I may just charge it up and get in another flight before I go home.

I just don't feel those of us who prefer to build should put down or limit ourselves by rejecting ARFs, nor should the people who prefer ARFs put us down or limit themselves by not at least considering doing some building.

Don't think you have the skills to build? I didn't have much in the way of skills in 1948 when I built my first models at the age of 4, either. But I learned and got better. And the instructions weren't as good as they are now, the parts fit was usually a lot worse, and I didn't have the assortment of tools to make things easier than I do now, but with a little bit of help from m dad, when he wasn't working 12 hrs/day, 6 and 7 days/wk, and lots of model airplane magazines. And the skills I learned and developed have been of great use in every job I ever had, from working through college as a janitor to my current engineering job.

You know, I have met several model airplane builders who never became engineers. I have never met an engineer who did not ever build models. Guess the learned discipline works to their advantage.

Bill, AMA 4720

there is not much comparison between an arf and kit,kit building and plan building is more in line with each other.i have owned enough arf's over the years to say that they cant compare to kit/plan/scratch building.the first arf i owned was so heavy it came in like a rock on landing,and the new ones these days don't take much of a pounding.i have crashed a few planes in my time,and can say the kits i have built have faired much better.if you are into scratch building,and i don't know of anyone personally that design their own plans,they purchase plans and cut from there,there isn't much difference in building someone Else's plans as opposed to a kit the only difference is you cut your own parts as opposed to having them cut.aren't they the same ribs formers wood?but you do get the pleasure of knowing you did them,and that is a very rewarding thing.most of my planes are kits,and it is to a point now days that if you want to continue building you it will have to be from plans,the HS here are getting fewer and fewer kits in.someone made a comparison here as to a kit and arf,i guess for me knowing what materials i used inside my planes gives me more of peace of mind,as opposed to an arf.i build my kits according to my needs,we have recently changed flying fields from paved to grass,i have started beefing up my airframes according to that,you cant do that with your arf's easily without disassembly of some major parts.i love getting out flying spending time with family and friends,and arf/kit/plan build or scratch build the bottom line is what you get from it all.we all do what fits our needs and we all have different needs.

You are wrong. And your rant was irrelevant. I say that the term "building" does not sufficiently describe "plans built" or "scratch built" or "kit built". You had to resort to using MY terms to describe them yourself.


"Build" and "assemble" are NOT the accepted terminology to describe the various froms of building. The words "scratch", "Plans", and "Kit" are necessary to accutately convey your true meaning.

Generally, the term assemble is used with ARFs as the main sub-assemblies are completed for you. These ARE the accepted terms . Assemble ARFs ; kit built ; scratch built ; plans built


I never said that scratch built models used someone elses plans. You are confused.

After 20 yrs in the r/c hobby world.....

21 kit or scratch built planes
2 kit built cars 2 rtr
1 kit heli 1 arf

and to this day i have never even gave 2 ****s if someone built a kit or bought an arf............

sounds like someone has a bit more free time to worry about that stuff than i do. Smoke one, relax, build your kits, enjoy YOUR hobby, and quit whining.

and if its ppl not buying kits thats making them decline in numbers....... buy 2 next time


Keep breathin them fumes,

Coupe

PF,
That was not a, "RANT". That was just a correction. The terms that you quote may be accepted by you and most of the ARF community. The fact remains. If you do a kit, you are building. If you do an ARF, you are assembling.

Bill, AMA 4720

Just out of curiosity what is a "bingo field" ???... Is this a place or person ?...

BLW
Just which kits is it that have better cowls and wheel pants etc then the ARF's ?>.. I have purchase some inexspensive ARF's and they all have had great fiberglass cowls and pants... I have purchased several expensive kits (two to three times the price of the ARF's) and found nothing but mismatched wood and cheap ABS plastic parts...

Here are the fact's in regard to building a home......... The Carpenter is not the builder. He just assembles the parts that the "Builder tells him to assemble. He has no say in material, or design. The "Builder," is njot the designer. he just produces what the design calls for. In no way can one compare the same terminology between different crafts. Bob

shoot i just built a 4* 40 and it cost me 50$ more mybe even more to build it than to buy an arf from the hobby store. but i learned alot from building it

Ah, Semantics. I love it. Ever hear of Wendell Hostetler? From the Wendell Hostetler Plans site, at
http://www.aero-sports.com/whplans/about.html
and this is a quote:
I'll let one of YOU call Wendell up & tell him he's not "designing plans for scratch builders."

Actually, I could care less, but I just wanted to see if I could spell Hoot (H_o_o_t) (H00T) without getting asterisked out, as happened to a previous poster. There. I don't give 2 hoots.

Best wishes,
Dave Olson

Looks like a question of self serving symantics to me Bottom line IMHO is kits have lost out to ARF's mainly because of high prices and poor materials... Not a lack of building ability by flyers... This is a shame... I like to have a couple of ARF's to fly while I take my time and enjoy building a nice kit..