Long time 'taker' (more like giver) here and other sites like this that I frequent more often. I've always been willing to clear off a building board for someone, or visit them when they're having issues. I don't hold a candle to people Like Andrew Caholic who hosts a youth building program in his workshop but then, my workshop is more size challenged than his.

There used to be many resources to would-be builders. Magazines used to be rife with construction and design articles, free plan pull-outs etc. Then along came the ARF era and this all dried up. UK seemed to be the last to go, I was buying mags from the UK at $10 a pop until even these began drying up. RC magazines these days are full of ARF reviews ... nothing more than one commercial rag after another. Why did it change? Rampanr consumerism, you can reach a wider audience if you dumb down the consumer and supply instant gratification solutions.[:'(]

I'm always here to help anyone close enough to make the trip, and answer all email I receive (and I do get a fair bit). I enjoy both teaching and learning construction techniques and there's always more to learn.... that's why I stick with this hobby, once the challenge goes out of a hobby, I'm on to the next... much like many of the people I see ARFs introducing to the hobby....

Well here we go again....Inuindo's like, "Dumbing Down The Community" , Supplying "Instant gratification," Comments like this do not lend anything constructive to this discussion. How bout trying......The "Modelers are demanding, what they want, and the manufactures, are supplying their wants. This has always been the way a free market society has worked and thrived. The ability to take advantage of modern technology is what makes this a better Hobby. The plain truth is that we pick and choose which advances in technology we wish to avail ourselves to. IE, A true purest of ancient technology would never think of using a "computer" to compose a reply to this thread. They would instead, reach for pen and paper and write (or print) their reply by hand and mail it to one of the moderator's to post for them. I suppose that since that antiquated method of communication is so slow, and takes so much time, it's OK to use a Computer instead of pen and pencil. On the other hand it down right wrong, or
UN-Cool to avail one's self to the ARF industry. Where is the Logic in that assumption?
Here are the cold-hard-facts. The manufactures are building and supplying exactly what the modeler's want. Always have, always will. If the magazines, plans, and kit's are drying up....It's because the demand is drying up. Why is that so hard to comprehend? Here's some food for thought. If you can't find a Kit that you want to build, or a set of plans to build from.....Design and build you own. After all didn't someone design the kits that are available? Better yet! "BUY AN ARF" Bob

I am 56 and far beyond the age where I have a life time to enjoy what I am doing. To those who are "Givers", you are the ones that are doing what is needed to see the future of this sport is brighter. Don't get me wrong, ARF's are great but if you crash one you need to know how to repair it and building becomes a part of ARFs which allows the flyer of an ARF to see what is needed to build.

The question probably doesn't even make sense to most people, so they just say something to get you off their backs and stay friends, like, "I don't have time". The truth is they don't build kits because they don't enjoy it and they can afford not to. Who would go to all that tedious difficult work if they could just pay an expert to do it for them? The truth is 10 years ago not many people could afford ready-to-fly model airplanes, and today, a lot can.


I don't think you'll have to worry. Technology to the rescue! Big guys like Great Planes will have fewer and fewer kits, but anybody with a CAD program and an laser cutter can turn out a kit today. You may pay more for it, and you'll have to go to smaller companies, but there will be kits as long as there are people who want to build them.

This doesn't make sense to a lot of people either. They already know that they are not handy with tools, do not have the patience for tedious repetitive manual labor, can't follow instructions, or any of the hundreds of other skills that modelers have and most people don't. I never try to get someone to try kit building. Most just don't have the skills. They could easily just end up hurting themselves or someone else.

Jim........If someone has dedicated 47 years to this hobby, given dozens of airplanes "RTF," (including the radio) free of charge to young beginners that could not afford to buy a plane own there own....... would that make them a "giver"? What if someone had been an officer of AMA, a Contest director and Leader member, for AMA, president of several RC Clubs....... Would that make them a "Giver"? What if someone had taken the time to teach 100's of other new members and beginners to fly an RC aircraft........ Would that make him a "Giver" What if someone took the time to answer request for advice on these threads for years, would that qualify him as a "giver" Or do you feel that for someone to be considered a "Giver," They must always "build" their own aircraft, never buy, or fly an ARF? (even though they've already built 100's in the past, and have designed airplanes that have been kitted and sold by three different Manufactures for over 25 years. Would that make them a "giver"? I think I would have to say, that person sounds as if they may have given a "little" back to Hobby ,and should be qualified to give his opinion, and to buy, or fly what ever airplane, helicopter, boat, or car they choose, without being called "someone that has been "dumbed down by the manufactures". Bob

well said well said!!!!!


By the way i love your avatar!!!!

Bob,
This thread does not mean if you fly ARF's that you are not a modeler! I wanted to write this thread just to hear from everyone and get to see their opinions on kit building. You are a very well respected member of this hobby, I'm sure!!! You made a very good reply to what some of the modelers have said in their posts. I don't agree with the DUMB DOWN THE CONSUMER IDEA either. I just hoped by writing this thread that maybe some of our fellow hobby lovers would try a kit. If someone wants to build a kit, there is most likely a member of his/her club that would be willing to help. A friend of mine that only flew ARF's ordered a Citabria Kit from Sig yesterday after seeing my finished kits. I am going to help him all the way. I hope that is at least the start of being a giver.

Gibbs

NCIS...... I'm really not offended by any remark that's been made on this thread. As a matter of fact, I think this is one of the better threads that we've had in quite a while. Threads like this allow some of us to vent a little and blow off steam. If you have read many of my comments, I have always played the Devil's advocate to a certain extent. I'm just an old Far- with nothing better to do with my time. However.....inspite of my occasional DIG,s at someone Else's remarks, I always say what I mean, and believe in what I say. If someone Gets offended by reading these threads, and dosen't agree with someone else's choice what he fly's or how the plane was aquired or built, I suggest the real underlying problem is not an airplane of any kind. Bob

Bob with that low an AMA # you have been around this hobby a long time and I respect that.

Gibbs

Thank you Bob, but I am just a person who wants to suceed in something I am doing. I don't give up easily and am considered a hard head... To some building a kit is no big deal because they have either done so many that they are bored with them or they don't know how/don't feel they can do it. When I finish this kit and it maidens I will have accomplished something that I never thought I could do and it will show in my attitude. It will allow me to move on to better, more involved kits and it will allow me to pass on what I have learned and help someone else.

There is a flyer at our field that looks down his nose at ARFs although he flys them. I think it comes from building most of his life and working to be able to fly. I can understand his feelings about ARFs. When I told him that I had bought a kit he said that "its one thing to buy a kit but another to build it". If I have to stand on my head, I will finish this kit To those who have passed on what they have learned I applaud you in your efforts to assist fellow flyers and future builders. To those of you who have been doing this for 40 or 50 years, think what the future may hold for the RC pilots of tomorrow...I can only imagine.


Bob

While I frankly prefer planes I built myself, I have no quarrel with people who prefer ARFs and RTFs. In my almost 60 years in this hobby/sport, I've seen a lot of very lousy ARFs come and go, compared to SOME that are on today's market. The best ARFs I ever had were kits or scratch built planes others started on and lost interest in and either gave or sold to me. I've also seen some family teams where one person loves to build, and the other sibling or even mate only likes to fly. Great for them. Some like to build, some like to fly, and some of us like to do both. There's room for everybody.

I've purchased and assembled a moderate number of ARFs and RTFs, and go back to building my own. But that's me. I started cutting out printwood with split double edge Blue Blades and gluing parts together with LePages household cement. I have built from piles of balsa with no plans at all, from plans that I scaled up from magazine articles, from plans, from many different levels of kits, assembled ARFs, and even turned some marginal ARFs into decent moderately durable planes. With over 140 kits and 30 pounds of balsa in my house, I am still curious to try a Goldberg Skylark ARF and a couple of the newer CL ARFs.

Also, thanks to the increasing availability of decent or even good ARFs, our club has enough members to support a very comfortable well maintained flying field. Sometimes you have to put up with a minor bad to get a lot of good. And it appears that with the increasing market for ARFs, the quality is gooing up. Too bad that with the growth of the ARF market, kits are being shoved to the side. I don't think it's a shortage of builders, just that we are becoming smaller in proportion to the overall market

By the way, scientifically speaking, birds developed from reptiles. Reptiles are egg layers. Therefore, the egg came before the chicken.

Sorry but, I've taken enough marketing to know how true these remarks are (and that marketing is not for me). My comments were not meant to "instill riot", merely a lament. [&o]

Bob,

I've been watching this troll with a grin since it started but reading your last post, I wanted to give you an opinion as to the future of R/C. I'm not going to give you my R/C resume... but let's just say I've been flying R/C since single channel and escapments.

R/C planes will be gone as a hobby in 20 years!!!!! There, I said it....nobody else seems to want to see it but the signs are at every flying site in the country. There is no youth market to sustain the hobby in its' present form. The "I've got the plastic, you've got the plane" mentality has turned what used to be a very social, multiskilled hobby into a "what's in the new box?" hobby.

All the availability of arfs have done for the hobby is to get people into the hobby with little or no knowledge base so when the inevitable happens and they crash, they just get to buy more arfs. No glueing/cutting/designing/covering/engineering skills are needed, just enough headroom on the plastic to get another box. The other outcome of this is , "oh well, it crashed, I don't do this very well, think I'll take up traffic counting. This is making the hobby a revolving door and our present R/C magazines reflect this attitude. Easy in, easy out. I've got to stand up and applaud the arf manufacturers as they have cashed in on a market using labor so cheap, we can't even buy lunch for what they are paying their help a day. All of the arf fliers are nodding their heads right now as they KNOW they can't build a plane for the price they just paid. They know this because they can't build, the cheap price is just a bonus.. not only are they saving money, they are saving their brain and other parts of their body against overuse and those nasty razor blade cuts. One manufacturer even touts a couple of their arfs as "plug and play"....what a joke..... what do you mean the engine doesn't start itself??? and where is that computer controlled GPS managed flight control system???? In short you don't have to do anything but learn to fly before you run out of cash....if you actually turn out to really want to learn.

So, you guys that are having so much fun beating up on each other between the kit builders and the arf assemblers HAVE FUN!!! I'm going to go to the shop and work on a few projects. Something a bit more satisfying that typing....

In reflecting on the other "hobbies" such as golf, fishing, hunting, woodworking, even birdwatching....the big push in reading the magazines on these topics is LEARN HOW TO DO THIS !!!! R/C would do well to go back to this mentality. There are dues to pay in every part of life to make what you accomplish truly worthwild. The really sad thing here is that unless something changes, in 20 years, the servers that this blog is carried on will probably be gone.... just like R/C planes.....

i have to disagree. i am 28 years old i just got started in this hobby and my trainer was a pre assembled arf. i love to build and i am just getting started. i have only been in the hobby for four years and i am always eager to build above anything else. kits may disapear in 20 years but i doubt the whole hobby will be gone. i feel its actually entered a new era with electric powered planes and such. i think after kits disapear most will buy planes but alot will still build but scratch build instead. after i get some more experience building kits i plan to start scratch building. i want to have my first scratch build be the ultrasport 60. i have three or four sets of plans for planes. with your outlook on things you might as well quit and sell your stuff. i plan on keeping on flying and building sorry but life isnt as bad as all that.

Most of us at my club build. We have a few who have ARFs. I'm sort of turned off by the 'oh well, it crashed, time to go buy another one before the LHS closes' attitude. And, I don't buy that line that ARFs are built better than kits. I've seen some pathetic stuff, like hot glue instead of CA or epoxy, etc.

I can relate to this ARF mentality a bit. I was given a Somethin Extra that a guy crashed again and was tired of repairing. I've rebuilt about half the kit and I fly it like I stole it. I just don't care because I didn't build it. Same thing as ARF mentality I suppose.....

Anyway, some of us love planes, full scale or models. They have a magic air about them. You either love them or you don't. My dad let me hang around a big airport and it's in my blood. Built little kits as a kid. Flew full scale in the military. Now I fly RC. I love them all the same, big or little. I never considered any plane to be disposable until all this ARF hoopla.

You either get what I'm talking about or you don't.

At least you and I have built kit of a Prop. But wait.........dang...it minr was already built. Oh Well. Bob

Jim.......I have enjoyed each and every comment that you've made. You'd be surprised if you could see my work shop. I am constantly rebuilding crashed ARF's as well as Kit built Aircraft. You'd be surprised to see the choice's of glue that some kit builders use. I suspect it's because they have not had an accomplished Builder like yourself to assist them. The plain truth is there just aren't that many guy's around that can assist them.
For the most part....I'll bet that very few modelers could even tell you what a Transmute servo was, a Durante servo did, or what was a Bonner, compound escapement used for. Very few kits back in those components days. Love you man Bob

I used the Bonner Vari-Comp in my Smog Hog (thank you very much) That was before I graduated to my Kraft 10 Channel reed set up. Question for you...Have you ever seen a Charley C/G radio system? Still have one (If I knew which box it was in after the move to sunny Fla. I'd get you some pics).

Bill, AMA 4720

Now we're just reminescing (sp?). I still remember trying to fly loops with my single channel (rubber band driven escapement) Sterling Mambo... it looked so easy in the instructions, "just hold rudder until a spiral dive is achieved, release and the aircraft will zoom over the top", yeah right.

Stick! You got me there because I've never heard of a "Charlie C/G Radio. I've Never owned a Kraft Reed System, I graduated to Reeds in 1960. I had a set of F & M, "Matador" 5 ch reeds. I then upgraded to a 10 CH "Orbit" Reeds. My 1st Propo rig was a"Blue Max" 4 ch which was built
from instructions that were ran in RC Modeler magazine as a series to build your own radio. Each month they would publish a parts list and instructions on each step. I purchased most of my parts Radio Shack, or World engines, (Controlair) where you could buy the parts as a "Kit". I also built an Ace, "Silver Seven," from a kit. As you probably know, that kit was really just a "Pro-Line," radio that Ace had purchased the company. Pro-Line back in the 60's- 70's was the "Big Rig" of that era. Back then There were no ARF'S. In fact........The vast majority of kits available were just Free Flights aircraft, that were flown single channel. My 1st Kit was a junior Falcon, kitted by "Goldberg". Anyone that ever built one of those kit's (with their Die crunched wood) would have jumped on any Arf, sold today. Incedently.....My first true ARF was made by "DuBro," Model. That plane ( can't recall the name) was their 1st, and only venture into the ARF world. Those were the good olé days for me. Because when I went to fly on the weekend, and I didn't crash, or have to chase my plane down to retrieve it.........I was one happy camper all week long. Bob

Yea... I one had a Sterling, Minni Mambo. Had an 0.49 on it. Chased that thing all over the county every weekend. The Bonner ,Compound escapement mentioned, was a very good escapement and was battery powered but.........you had to remember your last in put (right or left) because it was a "sequencing" escapement. Whereas the compound escapements would always return to center. 1 blip right, 2 blips for left. Bob

I bought a sequencing sytem used from someone, never could get it to work, it's probably still in a box somewherein my parents attic. My first proportional radio was an MRC, my cousin went with the Kraft, he spent the summer building his radio while I went flying. I guess that MRC was my first ARF.

I'm a hybrid. I build kits, scratch and fly ARF's. This is how my brain works. I get the notion that I must have a Bonanza or that I must have a CAP 10B or what ever plane strikes my fancy. IF there is a nice ARF that is the right size and looks good, bingo, thats what I get. IF not, then I see if there is a kit, new or OOP, last resort, scratch. The important thing to remember is that I have to have a 60 size Bonanza ( example ). I take the path of least resistance. But when its all said and done, I WILL have a 60 size Bonanza !! I decide what plane I want, not the market place. Life would be easier for me if I could look at ARF's and choose one. But I just can't.
I have heard the rumor that GP is offering a ARF C310 this winter. I want one already. IF the rumor is true and the plane looks good and seems well constructed, I will buy one. But this is unusual for me to allow the market to choose a subject for me. Actually, I guess I have been Jonesing a C310 anyway.

Pilotfighter......I suspect that you and I are a lot alike in our desires in this hobby. See MY MODELS I think I have three pages of aircraft listed but I have at least twice that many that are ready to fly. (50cc or larger) I don't even list the smaller planes I have. My next ARF, will bee the Pacific G Bee Y, 33% which I'm putting an ASP 400 5 cylinder radial in. Just saw the picture and had to have it. I guess I'm an what you call an impulse buyer. Anyhow.........I have lot's of fun (and grief) in this hobby and have for quite a while. Bob

Also, another personal factor. If I were just starting in this hobby/sport today, I think if I were to start with ARFs, I would eventually expand into kit and scratch building, just for the personal growth. I hate to be limited! And I get more mad at myself when I don't honestly try something new I might think I'd like to try than I do if I try it and don't achieve some degree of success. To give up without trying is like being flamed, but even worse, by yourself. The only true failure is when you hold yourself back. This is the attitude that led me to expand from display models to free flight flying, and from there to add control line flying, model boats, including ship-in-a-bottle, model railroading, radio control, ERC, model rockets, and a few others. In the process, I tried and gave up on a couple, like model cars just because of trying it and not liking it, not because I persuaded persuaded myself I couldn't do it. If I tried and liked it, I kept up with it, and if I tried it and didn't like it, I just eventually dropped it. There are a few things still I would like to try if I get the time and money. I have no interest in bungee jumping, surfing, wind surfing or white water rafting, but I would like to try hang gliding and full size flying. I am ambivalent about parachuting, just for the idea that even if it might be exciting, why would someone want to leave a perfectly flyable plane while it's still flying?