mmattockx

You are absolutely correct. A plans build is only a couple of nights of cutting and sanding from a kit build... Nothing to be afraid of at all. You might want to start with something with a bit lower parts count than the Fleet, but if you are willing to sit and cut for a while, it would be fine. I have a secret to share with you - there are NEVER any parts that REQUIRE die cutting, or laser cutting for that matter. Just a photocopier, some 3M-77 adhesive and a scroll saw and drill press will get you all the way home if you can run the tools properly. And a fuse jig or magnetic building board to frame up the fuse nice and straight if it does not build flat on the table. Wings seldom need more than a flat table and some care with shims and a straight edge to be done well.

Leave the fear behind and try a plans build. Once you get there, it simply doesn't matter what the kit or ARF companies are doing, you can build anything you want from a piece of paper and a pile of wood. It's a very powerful feeling to know that you are independent of the whims of the market and the buying public.


Mark

HighPlains

My Feedback: (1)

Ever notice that a lot of builders live a long ways north?

Love To build

My Feedback: (30)

I've been trying to preserve my favorite older and discontinued kits for laser cutting. I am starting to scan the Royal B25 parts into my PC to convert to CAD format. Very time consuming but worth it. I feel at the way things are going that the builders of kits and plans will have to get together and preserve and share these dwindling resources.


Bill

huggins

Mark,

I agree with you completely. However there are a few things that can make a plan build very much different than a kit build. Cowls, canopies, wheel pants and landing gears. You can probably find suitable wheel pants at one of the aftermarket fiberglass suppliers and landing gears are usually not to tough to make, just a little time consuming. Cowls, if you ar lucky you can find one that will work. Canopies, forget it (most likely). Yes you can build cowls and canopies, and I have, but it is a totally new skill that has to be learned and equipment and supplies that have to be scrounged. Is it worthwhile to learn? Sure it is. But, sometimes I just don't want to spend that kind of time on a project. I guess a lot depends on what kind of a plane you want to build.

Mike

Jim_Purcha

My Feedback: (8)

Calgary is west not north!!! That's why God created winter.

RCKen

My Feedback: (9)

We have a summer building season here in Oklahoma too. During the worst part of the summer it's just too stinking hot to go outside, so I stay in and build. On a weekend flying day I will typically be at the flying field at 6:30 am - 7 am. I'll fly until around noon or so, then I go home and head for the air conditioned shop and start building.

Awww heck, who am I trying to kid?? I build year round!!!

Ken

LouisB

What puzzles me is that the likes of SIG and others price their kits waaaay out of the market. It is as if they wish for kits to fail as a profitable business. What tooling do you need to set up with a laser cutter? There goes that argument regarding cost. Besides, the Chinese and Vietnamese also have to cut their ARFs out of something.

I own ARFs but I have started my very first kits on the Comet range. Got a Xmas present containing four kits in a set. Build for beginners, even included a rudimentary building board and wax paper. Started with a solid wood glider and ended with the Cloudbuster. Man, was that FUN! From thereon I was sold on kits.

My Phoenix Sonic LW ARF was a lot of fun until I cartwheeled it on a too slow approach. What really happened was that the fuse got fatigued because the ARF wing halves were out of balance and I regularly crashed. After discovering and rectifying the problem it flew great until the fateful approach. I decided to cut the fuse lengthwise in half and rebuild. Guess what ?! The ARF box says "all ply and balsa construction" but they have used lots of that eastern Botok junk wood in it. Brittle as glass. My observations: (1) I trusted the ARF wing to be laterally balanced and (2) the print on the box promised me quality.

I am currently on and off busy with a SIG 1/4 scale Spacewalker which I bought as a 2ndhand bargain. Else, its scratchbuilt and ARFs for me.

Jigley3

Carefull.....Jim..... The last time I looked at a map Kansas was a tad south of Calgary...after all you don't want that Rick Mercer dude doing a
"Talking to Candians" spoof do you... ?
bert

IronCross

"What puzzles me is that the likes of SIG and others price their kits waaaay out of the market. It is as if they wish for kits to fail as a profitable business. What tooling do you need to set up with a laser cutter? There goes that argument regarding cost. Besides, the Chinese and Vietnamese also have to cut their ARFs out of something. "

I have often wondered the same thing.. You pay almost the same for a box of parts crunched out of what looks like waste balsa and get plastic parts to boot.. Makes no sense to me... Seems like the people that are producing the ARF's could cut the kits as well... Even include the fiberglass parts at a much better price.. With the price of the kits and ARF"S so close where is the incentive to build ?...
I usually keep a few ARF's around to fly while I build something... I enjoy both... In the time it takes me to build a good kit I figure it saves me the price of two or three ARF's.. Just my rationaliZation...[8D].

meaden

We build in the south too...cold is cold. It's a matter of degrees.

I've never assembled an ARF and the only one that I've really considered buying is the GP 1/3 scale Pitts. Just because I can't find plans or a (reasonably priced) kit that size. The thought of paying for an ARF then stripping the covering off and going over every joint and part to make it the way I want it just seems silly. Like paying a bunch of money for cleaning up someone else's work. It makes starting from a 3-view reasonable.

Also, I think ARF's have made the expectations for the quality of kits kinda' out of wack. Would you go to buy a "kit" for a deck on your home from your local home-mega-center and expect all the parts to fit to 1/16 in.

Rcpilot

My Feedback: (78)

If you want a Pitts, then take a look at this one:

http://www.rcguys.com/S1Pitts.htm

I have never had one, but it looks like a better plane than the GP Pitts. I had one of those. Sold it. POS.

mmattockx

Mike,

That is a fair observation. I tend to like all wood pattern planes and sport aircraft that do not require separate cowls or clear canopies. Canopies can be a nuisance, all right. Many cowls can be had from the aftermarket fiberglass suppliers, however. People like Stan's and Fiberglass Specialties have a large catalog of cowls and very often one can found that is dead on or at least close enough. And considering the junk plastic cowls generally supplied with kits, finding your own is not really that much worse. I don't think I have ever used a plastic cowl or wheel pants from a kit, I always buy fiberglass parts to replace them for the durability and higher quality.

Mark

Jim_Purcha

My Feedback: (8)

When I contacted RCM magazine before they shut down the magazine, they were just finishing scanning their entire collection of plans.

Jim_Purcha

My Feedback: (8)

Sorry, I might Calgary was west of La Salle, Manitoba. It's all relative to where you are. I like Rick Mercer too by the way "Speaking to Canadians". Calgary is more north west of Kansas. I'm direct north of Kansas. Didn't you know that when God created the Earth it was during 7 days of winter "Building Season".

HighPlains

My Feedback: (1)

We have had a rather bad winter by our standards. It's been compared to one in the late 40's by the old timers. I look out and think of the movie "Ice Station Zebra".

Mode One

Kits or ARFs are produced to satisfy market demands. It's a simple matter; which ever produces better profits becomes the focus. I think Balsa USA's saving grace is the fact that 1/4 scale and larger ARFs are very expensive to ship and this size airplane is enjoyed by people whom like to build, so their kit line continues to be successful.

I walked into a hobby shop I had not been in for a few years and was saddend to see the complete change in focus the shop had taken. Model Railroading offerings had srunken, plastic models had srunken and R/C kits and building supplies/accessories had shrunken. There was whole new sections devoted to cast metal toy/models, role playing games. Simply put the place was more of a TOY STORE then a hobby shop. This place is Hub Hobbies, in the the twin cities and was one of my favorite hobby shops!

Now, if this isn't a demonstration to all of us of what is happening to the hobby world, I don't know what else to tell you! Plenty of us kit lovers still exist, we seem to be overlooked as demand for ready made stuff far exceeds our meager demands and desires!

I took a hiatus from R/C and did Model railroading for about 14 years. The staple of model railroading had been plastic kits by Athearn, Roundhouse and a few others. Horizon Hobbies bought out these two manufacturers and have for all practical purposeses eliminated these kits from production. We're talking about a basic "shake the box" to build kit, that the general model railroader no longer seemed to have time to build. It took at most 15 minutes to assemble an Athearn kit. I would do surgery to mine to make them more realistic and operate better and it might take me a couple hours to build one. Again, Horizon Hobbies does not do anything that market demand doesn't show as the proper direction to take. I came back to R/C from desire to fly again and knowing I can build from scratch to satisfy my need to build.

Kits and modeling are being phased from hobbies! If you disagree with my opinion on this I guess we will just have to agree to disagree!

bbbair

In one of my favorite rants, this is what I refer to as "The Cellophane Generation", the modern kid sees something, buys it, takes it out of the cellophane wrapper and plays with it until he is either tired of it or it breaks. Then the item is thrown away and the cycle is repeated.

Great for the stores sales, rotten for the imagination ... enter the ARFs ... exit kits [&o] ... the evolution of the hobby continues.

papermache

My Feedback: (35)

Mode One is right on. The LHS I go to has done the same thing. Railroading supplies, plastic kits, and all that are being slowly phased out and replaced with "open the box" items. Last time I was there, they had 3 R/C kits, probably 8 ARFS and as many park flyers. You can't blame the LHS owners either. They have to sell what's in demand or they'll be out of business.

A friend of mine has a dollhouse shop and is going through similar troubles. The "RTF" dollhouse is the thing, and her stock of kit houses and furnishings is collecting dust on the shelves. She, too gets the all-too-familiar "I don't have time to build one" excuse from her customers.

If these "I don't have the time" people would get away from the computer or turn off the TV for one hour a couple days a week, they'd find the time to build and discover the immense satisfaction that goes along with it. I guess it's the case of too many people that have to be entertained and who never learned to entertain themselves.

papermache

R/C Lee

My Feedback: (3)

I agree that it's really a shame that the kit manufacturers are going out of business and being replaced by ARF suppliers. I, too, am a long-time builder and I build 3 or 4 airplanes a year, sometimes from plans, sometimes from kits (it helps to be retired). I have ordered some AMA plans, and if you know what you want, it's a pretty good deal. Last year I built a Goldberg Jr. Falcon, a plane that I had a lot of success with when it first came out long ago. Back then I used a Cox .049 and single channel r/c. Today's version has an OS LA .15 and full house. I beefed it up a bit to handle the extra stress and weight, and it flies great. I fly off a grass field and have to hand launch it, but it is really fast and does excellent aerobatics. A little tricky to get everything in, but it's fun to fly. Right now, there's a blizzard outside, and I'm working on a Proctor Nieuport 28 (actually taking a break here ). Last year I built the Jr. Falcon, a Goldberg Ultimate Kit, a scratch-built/my design Stearman .40, an older Sig Clipped Wing Cub, and am in process with a Ziroli B-25 for two Zenoah G38's. As soon as it warms up a little, I'll get back to the garage to start glassing the B-25. For you WW1 scale nuts, Proctor makes some great kits, both the museum scale versions as well as the VK kits. Let's do what we can to keep these good kit manufacturers in business.

For those of you who scratch build from plans, you might want to try a great template material I get from the fabric store that my wife shops in. It's a thin mylar see-through material that you've probably seen in the r/c magazines. It comes in sheets and is very inexpensive at the fabric store. Just put over the plan with the "rough" side up, draw the template, then cut it out with scissors. Voila, a great template.

Lee

Teachu2

My Feedback: (133)

You need a Sportster Bipe!

highlander52

Standby for a mini rant...I personally hold the kit manufacturers responsible...not all of them, but any that are still using die-cutting. With CAD technology and Laser cutting there is not an earthly reason why anyone should use a die cutter (spare me the details about already paid for setups...they have to be sharpened and redone from time to time anyway). I recently have built a Radical RC e hornet that was laser cut...it was so good you didn't even need full size plans because everything locked together in perfect alignment. I've also build an OMP Edge that had laser cut ribs...perfect. I'm currently working on a Skyshark Tempest that is perfect as well (the kit, not my building). There is a reason almost all the ARFs are laser cut...it makes for any easier, more accurate build and a better flying, lighter and stronger airplane. I personally refuse to build anything that is not laser cut anymore, unless I'm scratch building. I wish GP/TF and others would wake up, smell the coffee, and join the 20th century (I know it's the 21 century but computers and lasers were available in the 20th Century). I think I should start a truth in advertising campaign against Top Flite for their 21st Century labeled stuff that is anything but. I take that back, their covering iron is first rate, but beyond that...this is not to single out GP/TF but they are the biggest fish in the pond and most people that will try a build, will try one of their kits, and will be so disheartened, disgusted, depressed, disillusioned that they may never try any build again (I've built a few GP kits in the past including an RV-4 and Super Decathlon, both cannot carry water to any of the laser kits I've seen or built, and its a shame because GP produces some of the best instructions around). Kit manufacturers: Please use CAD and a Laser!!!!

Well I feel a little better now! Enjoy your builds and may they all be laser cut.

Highlander52

JNorton

My Feedback: (2)

Highlander,
I agree that when done properly a laser cut kit is outstanding. Page Aviation the manufacture that I started this thread about is all laser cut and apparently he is still having problems. It's not very heartening seeing good engineering and a good kit maker having to take other work to stay in business. Adrian said he has started a sign and graphics art business. Hopefully he will stay afloat.
John

R/C Lee

My Feedback: (3)

Highlander, I agree with your comments, and it's time the kit mfrs start using CAD layout and laser cutting. I might add that the kit contents (balsa and plywood) of my recently built Goldberg Ultimate left a lot to be desired. Not only were the ailerons different (3 of one thickness, 1 of another thickness), but the rest of the balsa was inconsistent running from extra hard to very soft, and the "strong plywood" was doorskin mahogany rather than aircraft ply. The plywood wing joiners were a joke and the firewall thickness was good for possibly a .25 engine rather than the .60 to .90 they specify. If I hadn't been a long-time builder and didn't know what wood density to choose, I would have wound up with a less than satisfactory airplane that would probably break easily on the first hard landing. Additionally, the plans varied (one wing half was longer than the other and one stab half was longer than the other.) Kit manufacturers take note!!! All we ask is that the proper woods are supplied, plans are CAD drawn, and the cut-out parts use a laser cutter. Now I feel better too . Lee

IronCross

And if all that isn't bad enough, they charge rip off prices and throw in cheap plasic cowls and wheel pants... Then people wonder why kits aren't selling so good.. Dang

Kelsey_B

I'm also disappointed that all of my favorite kits are gone, but this fact has turned me towards a different part of the hobby. I take a kit I have stored, or try to get one on ebay, and then create a drawing to reproduce that kit in autocad. I have done this with a royal corsair, and just starting the same process for my favorite sport plane - the great planes ultra sport 60. Here is what some of the preliminary work looks like. No templates for me. I just print out what I want to make and glue it to the wood and cut it out. I find it quite gratifying to make parts from my drawings. Its as exciting to me as flying. When I get the drawings done, I plan to do a thread to show everyone they can still have gp version of this plane.