ag4ever

It is a question. I am a builder, not a flier, yet. I built my first plane while in college about 10 years ago. I have just now started to fly it, so I have not spent enough time around the field to know what shows up in the trash. And yes, with my short time at the field, I saw a teenager and his mother show up at the field with a P51 ARF. He started it, then taxied it out, throttled up and it lifted. Immediatly it turned to the left and rolled onto its back. The teen then picked it up and came back to the pits. On check out he has the ailerons reversed, and proceeded to argue with the older members on how the ailerons should work and how he had it right. I doubt you would see that with a person that had built the kit, as they would have spent much more time becoming more familiar with it and how it works.

So I ask again, do most ARFers pull the radio equipment out or do they just trash the thing and buy another ARF? I guess a better question is: Would a person that buys a RTF know the radio equipment is not plane specific and can be transfered to a new plane?

While I am having fun flying my plane, I am having more fun building it, and I will continue to buy kits. If the kits are no longer available, I will build from plans. If the plans are not available, I will either find a new hobby or build from scratch.

I also have no issues with a person that only wants to buy ARFs. If that is what floats their boat, more power to them. That just aint me. I am not a follower, so I want my planes to be a little different, and short of recovering an ARF, if you have seen one you have seen them all.

BTW, I have a plastic rc nautique (kids toy) that resembles my big boat that I am tearing apart to make into a "real" RC boat by putting in a radio, rudder and a hot motor. The stock boat used two motors and props for vector steering, so even on my ARFish projects, they turn out to be custom items. I guess this mean even I buy some items as ARFs.

Gringo Flyer

My Feedback: (18)

I would be surprised if many folks are throwing away radio equipment. Very few planes come rtf with radio gear installed.


On a side note, I just recently noted that in a hobby supplier from Chile that also sells in Argentina they are still stocking discountinued kits. In fact they are still receiving shipments on a bunch of the discountinued top flight kits like the airacobra and some others. They even have the gp stuka ARF in stock.

If it was just a fact of them having the kits in stock I would think that they were just left over, but they are still receiving shipments of them.

IronCross

I enjoy building kits and ARF's both... I don't understand though why some builders are always whineing about and knocking ARF"S ... Maybe a good laxitive would help them Seems like they feel so inferior to the ARF people they try to drag them down to there level I am sure there are people at there fields that would show them how to assemble and ARF... Really not that much different then ASSEMBLING a bunch of precut parts together

ron9844

My Feedback: (65)

As for ARFs, I like them too. I originally got into the hobby in the late 70's. (Yes, I'm that old. No such thing a computer radios or ARFs or 3D anything back then.) I took a 25 year hiatus for marriage and raising a family. When I got back into it a few years ago, I immediately bought a kit and an ARF. It took me a year to build the Pup but I was flying the ARF in a week. I have nothing against an ARF or those that fly them but I must admit, and ARF will never give me that same enjoyment and pride and connection than I get with a kit. That is just something that those that only fly ARFs will miss out on.

< Message edited by Chevelle -- 3/6/2007 10:38:15 AM >

As the message above states I originally got into the hobby in the 60's and everything was a kit and most were good designs. I remember the Lou Andrews kits when the came out and your local hobby shop had trouble keeping them on the shelf. They were well designed and modelers just loved them, a builder could build one in 2-3 weeks because they were well designed. The kits were also designed very well (Bridi for example) and were easy to build. Then came the big companies ( No Names ) that either bought them out or made it so the little guy could not compete and that was the end of good kits that had parts that fit and you enjoyed going to the field with a plane that was not the same as the others.

ARF's are fine to get you into the air in a hurry but the quality is just not in the product. The last one I had (50 cc Yak) on the first landing the gear tore out, after inspecting there was no Plywood and very little glue.

I am looking at getting some of the older Bridi Kits and going to Kit cutters for Andrews kits to get airplanes that are fun and don't look like cookie cutter copies that have to be reinforced and reglued befor you want to fly them. ( not all ARF's are built lousy but some should not even be sold for what they are asking.)

Ron

mmattockx

Chevelle,

I have to agree with you, things are already moving this way in some sectors of the industry. Look at the 3D profile planes, all of the cutting edge designs are from small niche market producers like OMP, Paul Swany and others. The stuff being sold by the big suppliers is a generation or two behind in design and the quality of the ARF's compared to the kits is terrible. A well built Mojo is under 4lb with standard radio gear and a 45-50 2 stroke, while the ARF stuff is 4.5lb and up.

There are more and more small manufacturers popping up using laser cutting in all areas of the hobby and I think it is great, usually the kit quality is good to excellent and we finally get new and interesting kits to build instead of the same old junk that the big guys keep pushing.

I was out of the hobby for 10+ years until last year and I was disappointed to find that the kits being sold today are the same ones that were around 10 years ago! There has been no significant development from the majors in 10 years. No wonder no one wants to buy kits anymore... I hope the majors get on board and step up to laser cutting soon, but given the speed that large organizations move at, I wouldn't count on it.


Mark

ag4ever

I think some of the complaints come from resentment. We may not admit it, but we resent the fact that you can easily find just about any plane in ARF form, but if you want that same plane in a kit form, you have to search long and hard, and then you might have to just get plans and send them off to a custom kit cutter. Sure kits may be around for many years, but it is getting harder to just easily order your XYZ kit and have it at your door step in 3-5 days.

I know I have my eye on a couple kits from small kit cutters, but they are discontinued kits. I will probably contact them in a few months when i am ready to buy another kit to see if they will produce that kit again.

Now before I get in trouble for saying resentment, I don't resent the buyer of an ARF, they have their reasons for getting one, and I have no place to say if they are good or bad reasons. I just resent the fact that the kits offered seem to becoming less and less varied from the main vendors. I guess that is fine though. I would rather give an individual my money than a corporate conglomerate.

Mode One

In Reply to rcmiket

If I wanted to build a radio system, had the ability to do so and thought it would be fun/interesting to do it, would this mean I am archaic in my thinking and backwards?

If I want to spend hours building my airplanes from kits or scratch, is this archaic thinking also? I don't begrudge a person for liking ARFs, I have them, also. Don't begrudge me for enjoying building. Obviously most people involved in this sport prefer ARFs over building, hense the popularity of ARFs and the dramatic decrease in kit availability. Do I have to like this fact? No way!

The simple fact is this is my point of view. You have your point of view, also. You are entitled to it, just like I'm entiltled to mine.

Now we could go out and by a cup of coffee somewhere.

rcmiket

The radio comment was not directed to you was it? I don't begrudge you a thing. My whole point is that most, not all "builders" are crying over the fact that there are no kits. Kits that they never bought when they had the chance. Thats my point of view.

Stickbuilder

When my favorite kit disappeared, I started cutting my own kit of the plane. The AMA now owns the plan and I have provided them with the templates for the kit. Now you can build the PICA/Platt WACO YMF again. Why not try doing that if you want a kit badly enough? It was not all that difficult to do, and the end result has been worth the effort.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

Mode One

I don't discern anyone crying, maybe lamenting (a little). I know 50 years of enjoying building models and having kits disappear fairly quickly because of a changing market and forgive me; but, I feel the right to lament! It's not just R/C it's all hobbies which involve the individual building something! By the way, I bought the kits which are no longer available and since I build, the radio statement WAS directed at me!

Bill, not interested in Wacos at this time. I do build from scratch/plans and see this as the direction I'm headed in the future, as long as parts are available, which I think will likely become less and less, because people don't build anymore.

rcmiket

"I just pass it up and keep looking for one like it in kit form. i just am not ready to put the tools down and buy arfs."
Do you still build your radio's too?
Mode one I was quoting ag4ever not you. Where you come up with this I directed it at you is beyond me. I guess if you wish to feel it was so be it. I really don't care. ag4ever responded quite well to my questions. As far as the builders not buying the kits when they were available my hats off to you for stocking up. My comments are to those who didn't support the kit manufacturers when they had the chance and now are crying. If the shoe fits wear it.

Mode One

Good luck, Mike!

sledge_78

My Feedback: (24)

Well folks,

I too am one of those who is sad to see the kit supply fading. I had always built from kit or plans. Buying an ARF isn't a bad thing either. I know when there's a mishap I can usually make the repairs and the plane looks and flies well. I can do that from all the expeience I had building kits and planes from plans. Let's face it, the R/C hobby is a business and business will make available that which sells the most. There sure is enough of us kit builders to buy kits. Technology keeps changing and improving. The old kits were nice and many still are but where's the business for the kit manufacturers.? Years ago there were no ARF's as we have today, so the options were few buy a kit and build it. Now it seems if a new kit hits the market it has to be a real winner or we won't buy it. Top Flite re-introduced the "Contender" a truly great airplane. It has looks, easy to build and flies great. Top Flite also discontinued the P-39, the Foke Wulf I'm sure because they were not selling enough of them for it to be profitable. Even Pica discontinued operations I'm sure not due to an overwhelming demand for theri kits. Cox bought the airplane rights from Pica and has introduced ARFS of some of the kits that were sold by Pica. What may work going forward is the kit on demand manufacturer. Kits could be provided from a list of available plans. You place your order, the kit is made and shipped to you ready to assemble. I see more and more Plans offered with short kits available. So the question is - is that a profitable business, perhaps. If so, then we could have the kit of our choice oredered and sent to us as we desire. With online buying, the kit builder could review the plans, understand exactly what he/she is getting for there money, and make a clear selection. Waiting for a manufacturer to introduce a new Kit can be disappointing. But to offer several kits and you have a choice could be more satisfying. I just purchased the plans and a short kit for a P-38. An Airplane I always wanted to build. I made my choice after learning as much as I could about each P-38 kit and Arf that exists or existed. It was easy for mebecause what I wanted was something that other modelers wanted also. A business fellow decided to offer a short kit of this model, he must be making a profit or he wouldn't do it. I suppose the moral is - times change, technology changes, all those kits on the hobby shop shelf are no more. So change has occured, we have to adjust. I realized this since all the kits I purchased within the last two years were bought as new and are no longer produced. For example, Top flite p-39, Foke Wolf, Pica Duelist, Corsair. Even the new OS 50sx engine is now no longer current production.

Sledge_78

Sledge_78

ag4ever

In my limited experience, I am learing I would actually rather a short kit, than a complete one. Lets take my TF GE GS Corsair. I will be replacing the cowl with a fiberglass cowl from Fiberglass specialties. I will be ditching the plastic oil coolers for hand carved balsa cooler, I will be replacing some of the hardware with better hardware, I have already started cutting new pieces to better mimic true scale features and that is meaning some of the supplied balsa stick will not be used. All this means I paid for items I did not need. A short kit would solve this because I can plan the build better and get the good parts from the start and not invest in the substandard parts supplied with a near complete kit.

As long as there are plans, balsa, bass wood, and plywood, there will be "kits" to build planes. They just might be different than most of us are used to.

Unfortunatly, I did not have the financial means to support my hobby prior to now, so I could not help keep the kit mfgs in business, but now that I am getting into the hobby again, I will just find ways to cure my cravings to build.

Mode One

Since this is a public forum, comments made here towards one person can be (and it is reasonable that they would be) taken as an opinion towards people of like mindedness. Kits are disappearing from the R/C market place! Therefore, calling a kit builder whom is saddened by this situation a : "Whiner" or a "Cry Baby" is a proverbial "slap in the face" of every person whom is disheartened by kits disappearing.

Insanemoondoggie

I admit it, I`m a newbie. Whats a short kit?

mmattockx

It's a kit that isn't quite as tall as the others...

Couldn't resist that...

It is a kit that only has the ribs, formers, maybe cowl and/or landing gear, but no sheeting or stick stock. Just the harder to cut out or more complicated shaped pieces. You provide your own sheeting for wings, stick stock and usually the hardware.


Mark

Insanemoondoggie

Thanks for the info. Thats not a bad idea as I seem to replace alot of that anyway.

mmattockx

That is why some people prefer this style of kit. Stocking and choosing sheet and stick wood for each kit is a PITA for manufacturers to do, it takes time and personal effort that can't be avoided. Not efficient at all and securing a consistent supply of wood is hard on a production basis. If they skip this step, you get to pick your own wood and be as choosy as you like with it. You get a cheaper kit, because you don't buy parts you don't want and they get a much simpler manufacturing process. Works well on both ends. There are a fair number of suppliers that do this and it works out very well, I like it myself.


Mark

ron9844

My Feedback: (65)

I am along in years and have been building models a long time ( to long to admit ) I have built from plans and kits. I remember that when I started building from kits that the design were good and the parts fit was good (Andrews Kits and the older Top Flite plus many other manufacturers) and then came the big guys that bought up the Andrews and Top Flites and then the quality went down hill. I also have a couple of ARF's and from what I have and read about, Covering falling off, no glue etc. and the prices keep going up and everyone has the same lineup of planes, it gets boring. I have one (ARF)in my cellar that is built and ready to go, I cracked the canopy and it took 9 months for a new one and the covering is so wrinkled and will not shrink back up ( good old China Coat ) I won't even take it out just to crash it.

Ron

ag4ever

Yup, on my current build i went as far as to weigh all the balsa parts, and mark their weights on them. That way I could use the lighter wood at the rear and towards the wing tips, with the heavier wood nearer the CG point. By using a short kit, you can then be a lot more selective about what weight wood you are using, and how much of a certain weight wood you will use instead of being forced to replace or use it somewhere you don't want to. I should have replaced some balsa sticks on my current build as I don't think the strenght I need is there on the rear deck.

One of my next build will probably be a short kit.

Sneasle

I agree with you completely.

But, I come bearing bad news. It seems Adrian Page has indeed gone out of business. When I read this thread for the first time 2 weeks ago I immediately sent Adrian an email as I have been oogling his Gee Bee Z for some time and wanted to get one before they disappeared. I wanted to see if he had an idea if he would be able to hang on or not and if I needed to go ahead and buy a kit now. Well, I never heard back, only got an automated response saying that my submission had gone through. Today I went back to check the site and send him another email, but I found that his domain has expired.

It seems we have lost another kit cutter. Fortunately, I got the plans from RCM last week, So hopefully I can build from these. If anyone knows where I might be able to get the plastic parts for this plane, please let me know. I am really not looking forward to having to hand make the cowl and wheel pants...

http://www.adrianpage.com

JNorton

My Feedback: (2)

Sneasle
This really sucks big time. I was also trying to get a 1/4 Scale Gee Bee from Adrian. I offered to send a check in full until he could get his supplies in. All I got was this response. This is such a shame.
John

JNorton

My Feedback: (2)

Wendell Hostetler has plans for a 1/4 scale R that Fiberglass Specialties has cowlings for. Best I can do. I'll keep looking at home.
http://www.aero-sports.com/whplans/
John

EDIT->: They have the cowling, canopy, and spats.

Sneasle

Thanks John.

If you hear anything else back from Adrian let me know. That little notice he had at the top of his home page was a bit ol, so I don't know how accurate it was in relation to him having certain kits left, but if he is indeed gone, it will be a sad day.