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MAAC zone Re-org?

Old 10-14-2005, 07:43 AM
  #1  
Sharpy01
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Default MAAC zone Re-org?

Here's one that should generate some response.

Streamlining the Zones down to 5 or 6 is an issue that is occaisionally tossed around.

What do you think? Good, bad?

How would such a division look?
Old 10-14-2005, 08:29 AM
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gingertoad
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Default RE: MAAC zone Re-org?

I would be the first to agree that the current zone arrangement is not ideal. Zone sizes vary from a couple of hundred members to a couple of thousand, and geographically from one fair sized island to a zone that encompasses four provinces.
Five or six is not enough Directors to run MAAC, or service the zone members properly. I think that a reduction from thirteen to eleven zones, and thus Directors, would be a reasonable scenario. The number of Directors should be odd to reduce the number of tied votes. There would be a cost savings. Whether this would involve collapsing two zones into neighboring ones or a total reshuffle of all zone boundaries is up for discussion.
Obviously you, Marc, have something in mind. You have been a Zone Director and, while in that position, were able to effect a change of zone boundaries between two adjacent zones. This gives you EXPERIENCE!!!.
What do YOU think should be done?

Richard Barlow
MAAC V.P.
Old 10-14-2005, 08:54 AM
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Default RE: MAAC zone Re-org?

Zones based on Geography have never made much sense to me. Demographics makes more sense to me.
The issues surrounding clubs under stress from urban sprawl have very different needs from rural clubs and need different representation. Both have needs, just very different ones.

Those of you from rural clubs, consider the following:
I belong to two different clubs;
Both clubs have been forced to move in the last 5 years, one due to a government building (Juvenile detention), the other due to a highway (407).
Both clubs face the very real possibility of another move within the next 5 years (due to a new airport and further housing development).
If you've ever been through a move, you know the preparation of a new flying site is quite expensive (last move for one club cost $15K with a lot of donations and volunteer work).
Obviously the complexity of finding an appropriate field with a large enough safe flying zone in this area is high.
Both clubs are already a pretty distant drive from the majority of members, the last moves lost members simply because the drive was suddenly too far.
Costs incurred as a result of intentional damage are common enough to be considered a budgetary item. One club had the field torn up by some drunks on a stolen golf cart.....
Land in this area is pretty expensive ($200K for a 1/4 acre is common), leasing costs alone are high leading to the need for membership fees in the range of $80-$200 per year within a break even membership level of somewhere around 70.
Noise abatement (and enforcement) is a real issue in fact, one club I was planning to join lost their field last month for this very reason.

I'm told the situation is worse in some parts of BC, but more because of topography than population.

When I lived in a more rural area, none of these issues applied. We flew off a member's farm for free, the only costs were grass cutting.

Further, primary interest varies by area, for example S. Ontario seems to have sprouted a large interest in IMAC and Jets of recent, Toronto specifically has seen a large number of heli enthusiasts appear with heli only clubs sprouting up, same for electrics. etc. etc.
Old 10-14-2005, 09:03 AM
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kenair
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Default RE: MAAC zone Re-org?

Yes,
and the clubs need a say in the affairs of maac,
Old 10-14-2005, 10:25 AM
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Jim_McIntyre
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Default RE: MAAC zone Re-org?

They do ... it's called the Club Presidents meeting.
If you're not getting your issues to your club's president, or they're not getting them to your ZD then don't blame MAAC.
Old 10-14-2005, 12:47 PM
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Sharpy01
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Default RE: MAAC zone Re-org?


ORIGINAL: gingertoad

I would be the first to agree that the current zone arrangement is not ideal. Zone sizes vary from a couple of hundred members to a couple of thousand, and geographically from one fair sized island to a zone that encompasses four provinces.
Five or six is not enough Directors to run MAAC, or service the zone members properly. I think that a reduction from thirteen to eleven zones, and thus Directors, would be a reasonable scenario. The number of Directors should be odd to reduce the number of tied votes. There would be a cost savings. Whether this would involve collapsing two zones into neighboring ones or a total reshuffle of all zone boundaries is up for discussion.
Obviously you, Marc, have something in mind. You have been a Zone Director and, while in that position, were able to effect a change of zone boundaries between two adjacent zones. This gives you EXPERIENCE!!!.
What do YOU think should be done?

Richard Barlow
MAAC V.P.
Actually, I don't. The first time I heard of this was at my 1st AGM in Moosejaw where the idea was being floated "off the record". Recently, Jean mentioned the idea as a possible cost-saving measure in a post and I'm just wondering if there is any motivation out there?

Tough call. By numbers alone, our area up here would be cut down to 1 ZD over an absolutely mind-boggling geographical area. Pretty tough to have any kind of an effective representation. Politically, it would be a barrel of *****ly things and you'd would likely drive a big east-west wedge in the works. One thing the "old" system of AGM voting did, by allowing the number of votes held by the ZDs reflecting their membership numbers, was keep it realively fair from a membership number standpoint. Larger zones had more clout. (not sure where that is now)

If we now have to rely on proxy collection for AGM votes, I can see it being troubling to Southern Ont, where the largest zone can barely muster enough bodies and proxies at the AZM to have a quorum. Potentially, the smaller zones could have more clout because of the higher percentage of interested members in those zones.

...... It would be hard to keep this issue from becoming a huge issue of power and control if changes were put forward.


Old 10-14-2005, 12:57 PM
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Hughes500E
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Default RE: MAAC zone Re-org?

Based on the dispursment of funds for a ZD, I would say this is an area in need of attention.
Limiting the areas to perform the same duties with less zone directors? In my opinion would be negative. More emphasis on geographical locations and amount of travel dictating the allocation of funds rather than population is positive!
Better yet, (as I duck) the implimentation of a split organization for the pure benefit of keeping issues, commities and other agendas in check, a West MAAC and an east MAAC under the same umbrella? A 2 part directorship allowing for more support, education, more trust, better representation of the majority, and most of all, re-obtaining a sense of membership!

Old 10-14-2005, 01:26 PM
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Default RE: MAAC zone Re-org?

Hi Jim,

I've been President of a club for some time now, MAAC has never notified me of any meetings, or any procedures, information etc. that they expect from club presidents.

So, after reading this post, and in an attempt to find out more, I went to the MAAC site and could not find any reference to president's meetings, club meetings etc.

Just to let you know, the only contact I get from MAAC is when I initiate it - this is usually for pilot pins etc. In fact, I even had to reidentify that I was the club president ( I had sent them the information months before, to reconfirm, I sent copy of original email and response thier original reesponse ).

I'm sure there must be a ZD or MAAC representative that will want to attend one of our meetings to discuss the benefits of MAAC - but I'm not sure how, or when this contact will be made. The only information that seems to be distributed by MAAC, to clubs, presidents etc. seems to be through the MAAC magazine.

Opps! Sorry, they did send me a bi-plane jacket badge in an envelope - no description of why or what it was for. I'm guessing it was for the "best looking model pilot in Canada".

If you know what is expected of club presidents in relation to MAAC (meetings, voting, etc.), can you please let me know, or advise me where this information is posted? Thanks. Phone calls to the MAAC office seem to go unheeded or are not much help.

Fly4Fun,

Wayne


ORIGINAL: Jim_McIntyre

They do ... it's called the Club Presidents meeting.
If you're not getting your issues to your club's president, or they're not getting them to your ZD then don't blame MAAC.
Old 10-14-2005, 01:48 PM
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Jim_McIntyre
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Default RE: MAAC zone Re-org?

Hi Wayne,

This may have been a zone specific initiative, likely in response to lack of contact from the presidents. The Zone director is there to represent your zone, I know our past and current ZD has contacted many local clubs, even shown up to meetings.

The thing is, there is not enough manpower (especially in larger zones) for the communication to be from MAAC outward (unless you like form letters ). The communication has to be inward, from you, to your club president, to your ZD to the exec (or whoever is more appropriate, maybe a committee). The nice thing is you are not blocked from skipping any one step (you can call your ZD or even MAAC directly). The down side of this is the or crank ideas/problems fail to be filtered along the way.

As for your comment about unheeded phone calls to the MAAC office ... I don't see that. I've always had very good service when I've called and asked for something ... politely.

=======
This next part is not directed specifically at you Wayne, more of a general response;

I just don't get it when people assume MAAC should be contacting us all to see if they can do something for us today. If you need something, you need to call, not wait for Linda to call all 12K members and ask "what can I do for you today"

I also fail to see why a person with an idea they think sound (although it may not be) expects it to be actioned immediately without some decent investigative work. If the person with the idea doesn't come with a well thought out plan, and some supporting evidence, there just may not be enough resources to commit to these ideas.
Old 10-14-2005, 01:52 PM
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Jim_McIntyre
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Default RE: MAAC zone Re-org?

ORIGINAL: Hughes500E
....Better yet, (as I duck) the implimentation of a split organization for the pure benefit of keeping issues, commities and other agendas in check, a West MAAC and an east MAAC under the same umbrella? A 2 part directorship allowing for more support, education, more trust, better representation of the majority, and most of all, re-obtaining a sense of membership!

Don't forget the other coast, maybe a 3-way split? Oh, and Northern Ontario has very different needs than Southern Ontario, then there's Quebec.... hmmnnn, we could call these divisions zones and label them alphabetically like Zone A, Zone B etc. etc.
Old 10-14-2005, 02:20 PM
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reo
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Default RE: MAAC zone Re-org?

Unless I am missing something here, someone will need to explain the thought process of how splitting into 2 or 3 entities (under one big umbrella) would save money? In the real business world centralizing operations is usually the most cost effective way to go and I would think that MAAC would be no different. The service from the MAAC office is great, so why would we want to change?

Ron
Old 10-14-2005, 02:49 PM
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Wayne Miller
 
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Default RE: MAAC zone Re-org?

Hi Jim,

Being on many boards of many different organizations, some local and some nationwide, I think that some of your comments are valid. I know we can not expect an elected (that is, by default, part time) MAAC Board to have enough time to be able to do all that is needed. Also, it is a thankless job, no matter what they do, someone will always find fault and will have "a better way" but, they themselves, will never step up to the plate.

However, ( don't you hate it when someone throws a "however" or "but" in ), it would be nice if MAAC sent the "new" club executive an intoductory letter regarding MAAC, this would explain the structure of MAAC and the expectation of the club's executive to MAAC. Right now, when you get elected onto the exectutive of a flying club, you have no guidelines or ideas what is expected from you - no matter what you read, or where you look. From personal experience, I have no idea where I stand in the MAAC matrix, nor what MAAC would like from me - like I said, I have had absolutely no communication from MAAC, that is, unless I had initiated it (jacket badge excepted).

You are right in that MAAC can not be expected to communicate with each member, nor should it be necessary. However, (there it is again! ) MAAC could stuff an information letter in with the renewal card, this could have a chart or overview of how the organization is structured, or a web address where the information could be found. Currently there is not even a even list of expectations, or guidelines, of what is expected of members, or club executives listed on their web site. Example something like the following could be posted: "After a club elects their new executive, the persons and positions, should be registered with MAAC within 30 days", or "For MAAC approved events, and flying fields, they must be preregistered with MAAC" (just a guess on these) etc.

I suspect that MAAC does not have to currently approve clubs, and that only the members of the club belong to MAAC, but just the same, I'm sure most club presidents would willingly support MAAC, and share information, if they knew what would be expected of them, and how they could support MAAC.

I think MAAC would help themselves a lot by educating the membership as to what is expected from the membership, and what the membership can expect from MAAC, basically how they "fit" into the MAAC structure. By doing this, they would have a better understanding of the MAAC organization. I'm sure there must be documentaion of this information somewhere - we just have to make it accessible.

I promised myself I would not get into MAAC politics, and just observe, I have enough to do working with my own organization. However (see, I did it again! ) I thought I'd throw my two cents out. This is just my point of view, hope I did not offend anyone.

Fly4Fun,

Wayne Miller



Old 10-14-2005, 03:12 PM
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Jim_McIntyre
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Default RE: MAAC zone Re-org?

Hi Wayne,

I assume you're aware of the club registration package and this doesn't meet your needs?

I don't think MAAC should get involved in club level organization, the needs are just too varied. For example, I belong to two clubs, one public, and one private. I have voting rights in one, none in the other. One of the reasons I joined the private club where I have zero voting rights is, they appear to have no politics as a result. The owners of the corporation set the rules and make all decisions. If you don;t like it, you are welcome to leave. After many years on the exec at the public club, I find the private club very appealing....
Old 10-14-2005, 03:27 PM
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Default RE: MAAC zone Re-org?

Hi Jim,

No, I wasn't aware of the club registration package, this may be due to the fact our club elects its executive just before the summer, and I'm sure it was already taken care of. You can rest assured I'll check into it at the next Board meeting, this may be my starting point - thanks.

I'll be at the swap meet in London on Sunday, if your there, I'll try and find you and say HI!

Fly4Fun,

Wayne
Old 10-14-2005, 05:22 PM
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Hughes500E
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Default RE: MAAC zone Re-org?

Unless I am missing something here, someone will need to explain the thought process of how splitting into 2 or 3 entities (under one big umbrella) would save money?
With the newly implemented dues structure, we could be ok providing:

A) manage the money effectively coming in allowing a contingency fund of I believe 100% (furthermore, ensuring safekeep)
B) support MAAC
C) educate the members
D) hopefully welcome new MAAC members in years to come.

There are changes that can be made!
2004

EG
Be it resolved that under Duties of Exec:
a) Add: To investigate cost saving measures in the overall operation of the head
office.
The board recommends defeating the motion, the committee found it to be out of order.
The motion was dismissed as out of order.

EG
b) Add: To implement immediately all recommended cost saving measures.
The board recommends defeating the motion, the committee found it to be out of order.
The motion was dismissed as out of order.

EG
Be it resolved that under Power of the Executive add: All contracts entered into
by M.A.A.C. larger than $10,000 will be tendered at least every two years.
The board recommends defeating the motion, the committee found it to be out of order.
The motion was dismissed as out of order.

2005

EG
The motion to increase the dues to $75 carried 6149 in favor, 175 against

EG
That the Board of Directors/ Executive investigates any cost savings for
membership without a magazine. Already done, not cost effective.


I am quoting only public information as written in the minutes. I would also like to say that I am very much a supporter of MAAC and as such promise to help make it better. I agree with the increase, I agree with the preservation of the organization, I agree with striving to make it stronger and I sure will become more vocal

The idea above, old news! Could it be, sure. Will it help, quite possibly. Its just another idea being flung out there!



Old 10-20-2005, 09:42 PM
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Default RE: MAAC zone Re-org?

It's difficult to make any changes in the zones, for the reasons already outlined. Certainly no ZD wants to have to look after a larger area. An attempt was made to split the huge SE Zone but that would only give apoplexy to any Western ZD who is usually convinced that anyone from Ontario only lives and breathes to steal his (Western ) birthright. Better zone governance can be achieved by appointing the AZDs to represent regions within a zone. Many zones do this, but it isn't provided for in our By Laws and constitution. At least not yet.

Regarding the President' meeting - I think this started in our zone when Richard decided it was a good idea to get the club presidents together to review the agenda for the MAAC AGM and to get guidance from the grassroots. It's a great idea, but it would be hard to do, say, in BC.

The club secretary should still have the MAAC registration package and it's hard to see how a club president wouldn't know about this.

Most ZDs try to visit all clubs and/or where possible attend their events. I used to try and hit each one over a two year period. Quite often I was invited to club meetings. I also eventually got to sending out a zone newsletter, about once every six weeks. But you have to be careful who you send it to - some club presidents or secretaries just file communications and never pass anything on. In that case you have to send communications to a couple of club officials in the hope that they will keep each other honest. AZDs can help. Interested members can always ask to be included on the ZD's mailing or e-mail list. If a club isn't hearing from their ZD and they don't see him visiting them, then get in touch and invite him. If that doesn't work, get busy and vote someone else in.

If you aren't happy with your ZD then your first question is "Did I attend the Zone Meeting?" MAAC doesn't appoint the ZDs, it is the zone members. If they don't attend their AZM, they have only themselves to blame for the quality of thrir representation in MAAC. Most AZMs get minimal attendance and meet their quorum only with proxies. That isn't inevitable. For some years now in our zone we have been able to have twice the required members attend the AZM, without starting to count the proxies. We've even had people turn up from adjoining zones and from the USA! Not that we could count them.
Old 10-20-2005, 11:02 PM
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Default RE: MAAC zone Re-org?

Certainly doesn't hurt having the National Aviation Museum as your meeting site.

I'll be up at the RCMP college for the 1st couple of weeks of December and will certainly make a pilgrimage to the museum. Gerry Nadeau still the technical super there? It's been 3+ years since I was last there. Anything new going on there. I know they were talking of expanding when I was last there.
Old 10-21-2005, 08:40 AM
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Default RE: MAAC zone Re-org?

As far as I know Gerry Nadon is still there, in charge of audio visual displays. There are other modellers working there, too As for what is new, I'll try and get back to you after Sunday - I haven't been there since the last AZM a year ago.

If your travels take you along the 401 past Trenton, the RCAF Museum is also worth a visit. It has a couple of unique exhibits - the Halifax bomber, now restored and assembled, and a replica Burgess-Dunne biplane, the first Canadian military plane.

Using the Museum as a site, is fantastic, but there's more to it than that. Over the years we have always made an effort to provide an interesting day for the members:
- A "Mini Expo' to showcase as many SIGs as possible,
- sometimes an auction,
- presentations on interesting topics
- a chicken lunch is brought in for modest cost.
- the usual coffee and doughnuts are provided, just in case any police are in attendance.

Now it is established as an occasion on which old friends can meet.

I was pleased to discover that though I live on the furthest (SW) boundary of the zone, no less than four of us from here are going to attend. That's a good start towards the 40 person quorum, particularly when you consider that the bulk of the zone clubs are around Ottawa and it will be easy for then to attend.

We used to have each club report on their year's activities, but that dragged out the meeting, so they are now asked to submit written reports which can be posted.

Next year, the AGM is in Ottawa, the first time it has been in our zone.
Old 10-21-2005, 11:06 AM
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Default RE: MAAC zone Re-org?

An attempt was made to split the huge SE Zone but that would only give apoplexy to any Western ZD who is usually convinced that anyone from Ontario only lives and breathes to steal his (Western ) birthright.
This is an interesting statement, I bet you would not be willing to elaborate?
I ask that you keep your opinion to yourself! This is not the place to display ones childish antics. It also takes a lot away from what could have been an intelligent post!


The club secretary should still have the MAAC registration package and it's hard to see how a club president wouldn't know about this.
There are a number of small clubs that are just starting, or just learning, perhaps he (being the one you are commenting on) is picking up the pieces from a fallen exec or the like......



?????
Old 10-21-2005, 12:49 PM
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Default RE: MAAC zone Re-org?

>This is not the place to display ones childish antics.

Hmm, I've never seen Dave display a childish antic, nor can I imagine such.

Perhaps the BC reaction emphasises his point?
Old 10-21-2005, 01:28 PM
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Default RE: MAAC zone Re-org?

Probably, Dave shouldn't have taken the poke. I'm sure you will agree, Dave is no dummy and knew the effect it would have.

I wouldn't worry too much about it Hughes500. Us Ontarians are a little sensitive to the fact that our arrogant/liberal(thieving)/socialist ways are turning us into a "have-not" province and going on the offensive is a defense mechanism to heal our bruised, smog-choked ego.
Old 10-21-2005, 03:01 PM
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Default RE: MAAC zone Re-org?

As an "Ontarian", let me be the first to say ole Sharpies views do not reflect mine.

Heck, I find it hard to even think of him as an "Ontarian", his behaviour online reminds me more of someone I know from New York....
Old 10-21-2005, 03:07 PM
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Sharpy01
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Default RE: MAAC zone Re-org?

...... thanks Jim. I was hoping someone from down South was going to alienate me so my Western buddies would still like me.

(I actually thought Ronnieo would be the 1st to bite though)
Old 10-21-2005, 03:24 PM
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Default RE: MAAC zone Re-org?

ORIGINAL: Sharpy01
...... thanks Jim. I was hoping someone from down South was going to alienate me so my Western buddies would still like me.
There you have it folks ... how to win friends and influence people by Marc Sharpe.

It's not about what you believe, it's about manipulation through leveraging perceived divisions of artificial boundaries and prejudice.
Old 10-21-2005, 04:40 PM
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Default RE: MAAC zone Re-org?

wow, that's deep.

......tough week Jim? You're still too tight bud.

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