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200XBL Starter Voltage

Old 07-12-2021, 04:05 AM
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rc4flying
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Default 200XBL Starter Voltage

I am having issues with my 2nd starter motor over a short period of time and was wondering if anyone can tell me the "voltage" measured at the circuit board ? Also, what voltage I can safely apply direct to the starter motor to test it separate ? I use a 2 cell LiPo battery and have even bought new batteries recently thinking this may have been causing my problem. No change with 4 different batteries. and once turbine is started, it runs great.

When I try to start the turbine, the starter motor will sound like it is not turning enough rpm's to engage the turbine to spool up fast enough. The little clutch like part on the starter motor sounds like it is rattling. I've changed that also with no solution to this problem. I can go into the "Test" mode for the starter and play with the starter test 'On/Off" a few time and get it to work enough to go back and try the start process over again, and it will start just fine.

Any suggestions would be helpful. Thank You
Old 07-12-2021, 01:24 PM
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powerjets
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I have the same problem on my 100xbl, it seems the starter cut off current is just a bit too low, and it starts hesitating.
there is no setting available to us to raise this a little
Old 07-12-2021, 09:29 PM
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The issue could be that the clutch has moved back and it will not engage properly…. Have you tired to start it through a cool down process…

1. Trim all the way up
2. Throttle all the way up (full throttle) leave it there for a few seconds till Rpm reaches about 2700-3000 or possibly more …
3. Then bring throttle down and let ignition occur and normal startup

if you can get it started that way.. then I can suggest some remedies…

David
Old 07-13-2021, 02:52 AM
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Originally Posted by LA jetguy View Post
The issue could be that the clutch has moved back and it will not engage properly…. Have you tired to start it through a cool down process…

1. Trim all the way up
2. Throttle all the way up (full throttle) leave it there for a few seconds till Rpm reaches about 2700-3000 or possibly more …
3. Then bring throttle down and let ignition occur and normal startup

if you can get it started that way.. then I can suggest some remedies…

David
Hello David,
Thanks for the info and suggestions. All good. I have tried and checked all. It seems that when I do a startup, cool down check or just do a "starter test", the motor just seems like it is studdering. It never goes into a normal 3000 rpm initial spinning of the motor. After several attempts, the startup process will go completely normal and start the turbine, run and go through the cool down cycle all normally. With each startup, it is a guessing game as to whether it will be a normal start or a troublesome start. With the problem starts, I shut down the startup process quickly to avoid any "Hot Starts". I can tell that quickly that it has a problem to start.

When doing my troubleshooting, the first motor could be stopped by holding the clutch. So, I replaced the motor and all have been good for a time. Now this current motor when acting up, can be stopped holding the clutch. But when the motor spins up in a normal way, I can burn my fingers trying to stop the motor trying to hold the clutch. It's like a hit or miss startup.

I have a new motor on it's way, and will see what happens. Maybe the motor can become a problem after awhile.

Thanks, Joe
Old 07-13-2021, 03:21 AM
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Joe .. try dismantle the starter motor and with a towel clean the O ring inside the clutch of the starter motor…. Then with a little alcohol clean the “nut” on the turbine wheel where the clutch engages….

Based on the age of the turbine either you have to lremove the three screws on the tripod holding the starter motor or unscrew the starter motor housing to get to clean the it out

David

Old 07-13-2021, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by LA jetguy View Post
Joe .. try dismantle the starter motor and with a towel clean the O ring inside the clutch of the starter motor…. Then with a little alcohol clean the “nut” on the turbine wheel where the clutch engages….

Based on the age of the turbine either you have to lremove the three screws on the tripod holding the starter motor or unscrew the starter motor housing to get to clean the it out

David
Hello David,

Again, all great suggestions, but all these actions have been tried numerous times. I even tried cleaning all plug contacts on the circuit board for starter motor and cutoff and replaced with new pins on the starter plug end. It is just either the motor acting up or something on the main board starting to become intermittent.

Thanks for the help. Joe
Old 07-13-2021, 08:24 AM
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powerjets
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The starter cut off CURRENT is set too low on many of these and we are not allowed to adjust this in the ECU.
its under locked parameters, can anybody help unlock please
ps , on kingtech and open Xicoy you can just raise the starter value a bit and the problem is solved

Last edited by powerjets; 07-13-2021 at 08:26 AM.
Old 07-13-2021, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by powerjets View Post
The starter cut off CURRENT is set too low on many of these and we are not allowed to adjust this in the ECU.
its under locked parameters, can anybody help unlock please
ps , on kingtech and open Xicoy you can just raise the starter value a bit and the problem is solved
That would be helpful if someone can steer us in the right direction.
Old 07-13-2021, 01:56 PM
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Well, I spoke to Pablo at Jetsmunt and he mentioned to try advancing the trim then advance the throttle to full and hold there for 5 seconds before dropping the throttle stick to low to actually start the starting cycle. My motor would start the cool down mode at 4 seconds and then I dropped the throttle and the ignition sequence and startup cycle would change right over and start with no studdering from the starter motor. So, I will have to give this starting process the test through the full start cycle during my next flying session. Hope this works. Will keep you updated.
Old 07-18-2021, 08:38 PM
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Joe, I had exactly the same problem as you on my 200XBL, turned out the real issue was that the wiring for one of the motor phases was failing as it had some chaffing, probably due to vibration or even movement while installing within the enclosure, the way the motor is mounted binds the wires, in my opinion, that by itself will cause the motor to eventually fail.

The stuttering of the motor has to do with the way brushless motors work, when a phase fails, the rotor will not know what rotation direction to follow, causing the rotor to rotate back and forth, causing the stuttering.

The same applies to brushless pumps, when a phase fails, you can “hear” them work, but nothing comes out of the outlet, the most common reason is a failed connection or terminal.

I suggest you remove the motor to check for the condition of the wires. Should any of them be chaffed or broken, you need a new starter motor.

I replaced mine, have never had problems again. Should you have problems sourcing the motor, and if you are handy with tools and soldering, you can do what I did, the bendix on the motor has a set screw so it can be removed, you can buy a replacement brushless motor, they are common on small scale (1/18, 1/24) rc race cars, the hardest part is removing one of the motor end caps to switch the rotor the opposite direction ( so that the motor shaft comes out the same side as the wires), you also need to cut the motor shaft to match the shaft length of the original starter motor

on the attached pic, you can see on the far left the original starter motor on which one of the phase wires failed,
the one in the middle is the motor I prepped to replace the original, which works perfectly (you can see the servo wire and terminal required soldered at the end of the wires), and the one to the right is a new motor I keep at hand if the one in the engine fails


Last edited by Ruizmilton; 07-18-2021 at 08:47 PM.
Old 07-19-2021, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Ruizmilton View Post
Joe, I had exactly the same problem as you on my 200XBL, turned out the real issue was that the wiring for one of the motor phases was failing as it had some chaffing, probably due to vibration or even movement while installing within the enclosure, the way the motor is mounted binds the wires, in my opinion, that by itself will cause the motor to eventually fail.

The stuttering of the motor has to do with the way brushless motors work, when a phase fails, the rotor will not know what rotation direction to follow, causing the rotor to rotate back and forth, causing the stuttering.

The same applies to brushless pumps, when a phase fails, you can “hear” them work, but nothing comes out of the outlet, the most common reason is a failed connection or terminal.

I suggest you remove the motor to check for the condition of the wires. Should any of them be chaffed or broken, you need a new starter motor.

I replaced mine, have never had problems again. Should you have problems sourcing the motor, and if you are handy with tools and soldering, you can do what I did, the bendix on the motor has a set screw so it can be removed, you can buy a replacement brushless motor, they are common on small scale (1/18, 1/24) rc race cars, the hardest part is removing one of the motor end caps to switch the rotor the opposite direction ( so that the motor shaft comes out the same side as the wires), you also need to cut the motor shaft to match the shaft length of the original starter motor

on the attached pic, you can see on the far left the original starter motor on which one of the phase wires failed,
the one in the middle is the motor I prepped to replace the original, which works perfectly (you can see the servo wire and terminal required soldered at the end of the wires), and the one to the right is a new motor I keep at hand if the one in the engine fails

Hello, Ruizmilton,

Thanks for the reply and info.
When my first motor acted up a few years ago, I did find a very slight bit of chaffing and fixed with heat shrink until motor quit. I replaced the motor which solved the problem.
I sold the jet to a guy that just kept the plane in storage until I talked him into selling it back to me. Since buying it back, I have had periodic issues with starting. After close inspection during one of my troubleshooting sessions, I did find a cold solder joint on the main board. Problem solved for a while. No problem had started to reoccur. I did purchase a new motor. But what I found strange is that the three wire leads were all in one heat shrink wrap. I carefully cut some wrap back so I could solder new lead on and found no separate wrap on individual wire. Strange. Put new lead on and tested motor and all seemed good. But what Pablo from Jetsmunt described trying seems to work. see my earlier post.

What you describe about the stuttering makes sense, but now you got me thinking and I will have to go back and look into what I may have to try. When I was troubleshooting the motor, I did have the back of the motor off and pushed out the rotor which is magnetic. I what I did notice was that all the wiring in the case looked like it was dirty. I think I may try to take motor apart again, and spray electrical contact cleaner and blow dry with some air pressure to see if that would remove any of that dirt.. Just a thought

Thanks again for taking the time to input your suggestions. And thanks for the motor tip. Motor has otherwise ran great.

Joe
Old 08-25-2021, 08:26 AM
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Update:
Well, after trying different options to solve my starter issues, I was able to replace the main circuit board and finally get the motor out to test fly. The starter acted totally normal for the three starts and complete flights with no issues. Before the flight test, I checked the one motor that was acting up during startups and it also checked out as good. So now I have a spare starter motor.

Overall, I am a happy Jet Munts owner again. Also, Thank You to Pablo for all your help.

Joe

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