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Dissapointed in OS service

Old 07-28-2009, 12:49 PM
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tsperry88
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Default Dissapointed in OS service

Below is email correspondence I have had with OS. Let me know what you think.

FROM ME


"To Whom It May Concern:
Recently, I purchased an OS 46ax engine from Tower Hobbies. It is close to 3 months old, has had less than a half gallon of fuel through it, and the bearings went bad. I sent it to Hobby Services, see attached estimate. They told me there was rust on the bearings, and the cylinder/sleeve needed replaced. They refuse to cover this under warranty. I was told the problem is “typically” caused by not having adequate oil in the fuel and or not using after run oil. Cool Power fuel and liberal use of Hobbico ARO should be sufficient to rule out user error. I have two identical 46ax engines that the same “user error”
has not rendered useless. I would appreciate fair treatment. To this point I am disappointed by the response from phone calls.



Taylor Perry"


FROM OS

~Edited by MinnFlyer - Sorry, but OS emails (as well as all emails and PMs) are private correspondence and are not for publication~
Old 07-28-2009, 01:12 PM
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oldvet70
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Default RE: Dissapointed in OS service

I find the answer pretty interesting as I've heard this discussion in my own club. I've always used after run oils myself but I tend to use much more of it then I see being used in my club. I have never had a rust problem. Typically I see others using no ARO or a couple of drops and I guess they figure that is sufficient. I don't know how much you use or how you distribute it but a rusty bearing seems to me to be bound to happen if you live in a humid climate, you don't burn your fuel out, and don't use enough ARO. I can understand O.S.'s position. Rust surely isn't a defect in manufacture unless delivered new in that condition. I'd hate to pay them to change the bearings when you can do so yourself for much less, I've done it for many people. I guess in the end you have to decide what it's worth to you. Hope it all works out.
Old 07-28-2009, 01:47 PM
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Rcpilot
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Default RE: Dissapointed in OS service

Buy these and replace them yourself.

http://www.rc-bearings.com/catalog/p...roducts_id=715

Move on with it. Still plenty of flying weather in the season. Life's too short to screw around with something as simple as bearings in a glow engine. Take ya 15 minutes to replace them and you can be flying the engine that same afternoon.
Old 07-28-2009, 01:52 PM
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RCKen
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Default RE: Dissapointed in OS service

While the manual for the 46 AX does say to use After Run Oil, it does not specify any amount. Cool Power does contain After Run Oil in it's mixture and Morgan Fuels recommend to NOT use After Run Oils as they do not mix with their fuel. This is from their website

http://www.morganfuel.com/cp_faq.htm#4



Should I use after-run oil?



No!



Most of our flyers don't use any after-run. Petroleum based "after-run" oils do not mix with methanol-based fuels. So,we definitely don’t recommend any petroleum based lubes. Our built-in after-run oil is one of the most universally recognized features of our fuels.

By using Cool Power fuel you are meeting the manual requirements of having After Run Oil in your engine, although you may be fighting an uphill battle with hobby services though.

I have used Cool Power for over 10 years and I do not use After Run Oil. I have never had any issues with rust in any of  the engines that I use. As others have said though, your mileage may vary.

Ken
Old 07-28-2009, 02:17 PM
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tsperry88
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Default RE: Dissapointed in OS service

To Hobby Services:

You might be interested in what others have to say. If you don’t take the time to read the discussions, below is a summary. This is not to say I did not use after run oil. I did. Very liberally. Every time.

From Cool Power FAQ: "Should I use after-run oil? No! Most of our flyers don't use any after-run. Petroleum based "after-run" oils do not mix with methanol-based fuels. So, we definitely don’t recommend any petroleum based lubes. Our built-in after-run oil is one of the most universally recognized features of our fuels."

” I'd ask Chris S. , since he is into FAQ's, if he has happened to read Cool Power's FAQ's and how you are supposed to decided who's advice to follow."

"While the manual for the 46 AX does say to use After Run Oil, it does not specify any amount. Cool Power does contain After Run Oil in its mixture and Morgan Fuels recommend to NOT use After Run Oils as they do not mix with their fuel."

"I wonder if OS or Hobby Services wants to go on record that Cool Power should not be used in OS motors. Or to ignore the fuel manufacturers recommendations? Perhaps Chris. S would like to comment on this."
Old 07-28-2009, 02:58 PM
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Default RE: Dissapointed in OS service

I agree with RCPilot but you could always take the issue up with Bax (bill baxter in the OS forum), he's in charge of such things I believe.
Old 07-28-2009, 03:05 PM
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ChuckW
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Default RE: Dissapointed in OS service

It's unusual to get a response like this from Hobby Services. In fact, I've usually found them to go above and beyond their normal obligations.

Who did you speak to in person? You might keep asking for someone different until you get a different answer.

Also, what was your disposition when you spoke to them? I know I'm a lot more flexible in helping people in my job when they approach me with a a good disposition. Not trying to turn the situation around, I just know situations can get frustrating and I've unloaded on some support people at times.

It's just odd. I've run that same engine with the same fuel and looked inside after a couple years and seen no rust problems whatsoever. Of course it is hot and very dry here in the summer, maybe that makes a difference.
Old 07-28-2009, 03:24 PM
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RCKen
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Default RE: Dissapointed in OS service

I've sent a PM to Bax to bring this thread to his attention.

Ken
Old 07-28-2009, 03:52 PM
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carrellh
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Default RE: Dissapointed in OS service

ORIGINAL: tsperry88
''I wonder if OS or Hobby Services wants to go on record that Cool Power should not be used in OS motors. Or to ignore the fuel manufacturers recommendations? Perhaps Chris. S would like to comment on this.''
The AX manual says you need 18% oil. Cool Power has 17%. My guess is that Hobby services would tell you to ignore the fuel manufacturers recommendations since the fuel does not meet the minimum requirements that are printed in the engine manual.

I have used Morgan fuels in OS engines and will continue to do so. But, it is my choice and my risk.
Old 07-28-2009, 05:09 PM
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Gray Beard
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Default RE: Dissapointed in OS service

If Bill comes by he can answer all your questions and get things straightened out for you or answer some questions for you.
As to OS service, yes I have had a problem with them but it was 10 or more years ago and from what I have seen things have gotten better sense I had my problems. A lot better!!
It's been that long sense I have ever used there service and decided to just do my own work on my engines.
Never the less, I have often asked Bill questions and gotten very good replys and answers. Not always what I want to hear but he is a straight shooter and I trust his word.
Old 07-28-2009, 05:55 PM
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Default RE: Dissapointed in OS service

Regardless of what happens with OS service, RUST is not a manufacturing defect and there for not covered by warranty, regardless of how much ARO is used. Rust is just a normal occurence in our model engines as the ingredences used in the fuel are HYDROSCOPIC, and as Cool Power has stated that petroleum based ARO will not mix with the fuels or nutralize them against rust. You will be supprised how many ARO have a base product that is a petroluem product. The best way to help protect agains rust is to add a couple of Oz of caster oil your fuel when you get it home and run the engine out of fuel after the last run of the day while the engine is still hot.

Cheers
Old 07-28-2009, 06:46 PM
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LSF2298
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Default RE: Dissapointed in OS service

Ghost, are you saying the no engine ever comes off the end of the assembly line with a spot of rust in the bearing? or develops a spot of rust between the end of the assembly line and entry into the packaging area? Having spent a number of years with a multi-national manufacturing company for precision machinery, I can assure you, rust on a newly finished product is not an impossibility. Rare YES, impossible NO.
Old 07-28-2009, 10:47 PM
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The Ghost
 
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Default RE: Dissapointed in OS service

are you saying the no engine ever comes off the end of the assembly line with a spot of rust in the bearing?
NO, Just that rust is not a manufacturing defect, Having been a marine engineer for 25 odd years I have seen some pritty rusted stuff. 30 odd years of modelling I have never seen rusty bearings in a new engine.

Cheers
Old 07-29-2009, 01:45 AM
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Default RE: Dissapointed in OS service

I just bought a O.S .91 FX Ringed engine and the glow plug hole in the head wasn't tapped correctly. It went half way by hand then stopped. I then took my wrench and tightened it down and procceded to break in my engine on my engine stand. When I was finished with the break in, I pulled the glow plug out and replaced it with the new one. This time I started it by hand again, and it went in all the way.

And when I put the glow plug wrench on it... it wouldn't tighten. I took the head off and contacted Hobbico. They told me the engine is still under warrenty and to send it postmarked and insurred with a confirmation to them. What a pain! Then after 4 workdays later,they E-mailed me saying they are charging me for the head. Again I was on the phone with Customer Service at Hobbico and she apologized and said it was free, but it would be a month before they got the part due to it was on back order.

About a month went by and I got a post card in the mail saying they got the part and will be shipping the head out, but that I had to pay $20 in shipping. Then I got the E-mail saying the same thing and again I was on the phone with Customer Service. This time I was a little hot.

I finally got my engine head and it's fine and they backed the warrenty. Because of this I like O.S. Engines, but I don't like their customer service. I have way less hassels from Horizon with their Evolution Engines!

But we all have good and bad experiences. I guess it all depends who we deal with and when. I'm in retail and a Bike Tech, so I've seen a few things. If these people played the game, "how quick can I make this customer happy" the quicker we would be saying more possitive things about them. Bad stuff spreads well doesn't it?
Old 07-29-2009, 09:24 AM
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LSF2298
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Default RE: Dissapointed in OS service

Ah, I just noticed where you are located. I have never been there but have been told since you are on the underside of the world, water flows uphill there. You will probably be finding the rust at the top of the cylinder, not in the bearing!
Old 07-29-2009, 12:38 PM
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tsperry88
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Default RE: Dissapointed in OS service

I had hobby services do the repair. They are replacing the piston and liner as well. The fit was loose. According to them. Its a fine deal. I guess considering what the parts cost. I spoke will Bill. He said there was actual flakes of rust. Hardly seems possible. Best I know how, the engine was cared for perfectly. He recommends castor as the best lube. Probably because I wasn't using it. Wish they would cover it under warranty. It still doesn't seem right.
Old 07-29-2009, 03:10 PM
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Gray Beard
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Default RE: Dissapointed in OS service


ORIGINAL: The Ghost

are you saying the no engine ever comes off the end of the assembly line with a spot of rust in the bearing?
NO, Just that rust is not a manufacturing defect, Having been a marine engineer for 25 odd years I have seen some pritty rusted stuff. 30 odd years of modelling I have never seen rusty bearings in a new engine.

Cheers
One of the guys at the field came out with a brand new Magnum two stroke on his plane, you couldn't turn it over by hand at all. We went to the hobby shop with it and the store manager just handed him a new one, same thing. We opened them both up and both engines bearings were rusted solid??
That was the first time I have ever seen rusted bearings in an engine too. There is no answer for the problem but I question if there was a moisture problem in the shipping or storage?? Maybe in assembling?? The third engine we pulled was just fine and they all came into the store at the same time for the sale??
First time for everything but I had never seen anything like that.
Old 07-29-2009, 03:38 PM
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Default RE: Dissapointed in OS service

ORIGINAL: tsperry88

FROM OS

~Edited by MinnFlyer - Sorry, but OS emails (as well as all emails and PMs) are private correspondence and are not for publication~
A little over the top with the censorship button what?
I'm keen so see what caused such a knee jerk.
I don't believe I've seen so many mods rally so early in one simple thread.
Old 07-29-2009, 08:10 PM
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Gray Beard
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Default RE: Dissapointed in OS service


ORIGINAL: David Bathe

ORIGINAL: tsperry88

FROM OS

~Edited by MinnFlyer - Sorry, but OS emails (as well as all emails and PMs) are private correspondence and are not for publication~
A little over the top with the censorship button what?
I'm keen so see what caused such a knee jerk.
I don't believe I've seen so many mods rally so early in one simple thread.
Me too, I have seen a lot of emails posted here before. Then again, if it was something I really wondered about I would send the OP a PM and ask him to email the reply to me. I'm not, I trust Minn enough to keep me safe from shocking posts that may upset.
Old 07-30-2009, 12:07 AM
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Default RE: Dissapointed in OS service

Being that the engine is only 3mo old Hobby Services should repair it out of good will even if they will be out of maybe $25.00 in parts and shipping.

When you think of it that $25.00 will likely bring them a repeat customer but a few more posts like the op made and it will start to cause them to loose
sales I know OS makes nice engines I have some myself but if they to get strict on their warranty service I dont think it will good for them in the
long run.
Old 07-30-2009, 03:10 PM
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Gray Beard
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Default RE: Dissapointed in OS service

You would think!!! It was a surprise to me too, usually OS is very forgiving about problems like this but us not seeing the insides of the engine we will never know what they saw. A lot of things are out of there control and if Bax said it was an operator problem I would trust him. Wouldn't like it but I would trust his word for things.
OS service has always been very good and gotten better over the years. I think when I had my problems with them there were other things going on with the company and I just ran into it a little.
Old 02-04-2010, 12:20 PM
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Default RE: Dissapointed in OS service

I have had a couple of good experiences with Hobby Services and a couple that I would not consider good. It all went back to a very rigid warranty program for two items and the lack of either knowledge or will to help on another. I don't think were handled very fairly and thast fine, I just choose not to buy as many products serviced through them.

No OS Engines
No Futaba radio's or receivers

Andy
Old 02-04-2010, 01:59 PM
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gsoav8r
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Default RE: Dissapointed in OS service

ORIGINAL: Gray Beard


ORIGINAL: The Ghost

are you saying the no engine ever comes off the end of the assembly line with a spot of rust in the bearing?
NO, Just that rust is not a manufacturing defect, Having been a marine engineer for 25 odd years I have seen some pritty rusted stuff. 30 odd years of modelling I have never seen rusty bearings in a new engine.

Cheers
One of the guys at the field came out with a brand new Magnum two stroke on his plane, you couldn't turn it over by hand at all. We went to the hobby shop with it and the store manager just handed him a new one, same thing. We opened them both up and both engines bearings were rusted solid??
That was the first time I have ever seen rusted bearings in an engine too. There is no answer for the problem but I question if there was a moisture problem in the shipping or storage?? Maybe in assembling?? The third engine we pulled was just fine and they all came into the store at the same time for the sale??
First time for everything but I had never seen anything like that.
+1 there Gray Beard.

Really seems like a manufacturing defect to me. Rust itself may not be a manufacturing defect BUT rust can certainly be the result of a manufacturing defect. In this case my opinion is that the bearings werent properly lubed/protected prior to engine assembly.

Imagine a car manufacturer forgeting to paint a car. The car rust's over and then the maker wont warranty the car because rust isnt a defect.

My opinion is based on that I live in an area that gets it fair share of heat and humidity. Ive used Morgan fuel for about 14 yrs now and No ARO. Never have had a rusty bearing issue with any brand of engine that gets fair use.

Cheers.
Old 02-05-2010, 10:49 AM
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BDZ65
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Default RE: Dissapointed in OS service

I had the same problem with a 46AX, however Hobby Services replaced the engine. I always ran the crankcase dry and used plenty of after run oil, 40 - 60 drops, after each flying session. My second engine quickly developed the same bearing rust problem and I did not have the heart to ask for another replacement. This time I replaced the bearings myself with stainless from RC-bearings. I have had an Evolution and currently haveSaitos and Super Tigre engines, for some reason the 46AX wants to rust bearings much more than the others. I like the engine, but do feel the factory bearings are very rust prone.

Brian
Old 02-05-2010, 12:29 PM
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Luchnia
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Default RE: Dissapointed in OS service

We had an interesting situation this past year (2009). A fellow flyer always sets up on the stand adjacent to mine and we generally fly at the field together most every week. We rarely miss it unless he or I have something else going on. He has quite a few planes, but normally flies the same plane every week. During the summer he bought a Pulse XT to try. It was really not a fast enough plane for his style of flying.

The Pulse came with an EVO 46. He flew the plane maybe ten times and this fellow is almost anal about using after run oil. Even to the point I am thinking will that really do any good? The Pulse had about ten flights on it and he was getting ready to buy a YAK (or already had bought it) and I mentioned if he would sell me the Pulse because I really liked it. I went ahead and bought it.

I had noticed a little vibration on the plane but thought nothing of it. The motor had not really been broken in well with only ten flights. I told him I would take it home and pull the engine and see what was up with the vibration. I ran it on my test stand and knew immediately it was an engine bearing problem. Once I pulled it apart I saw the engine bearings were terribly rusty! The bearings looked like they came out of a ten year old engine. It made no sense at all.

He sent the engine back to EVO and they completely replaced it free of charge (except for shipping charges), however they told him it was not the engine's fault that he needed to use after run oil. He told them he always used after run oil and I can verify it because I always watch him do it when he is finished for the day.

From what I have seen the rust problem in bearings is not always consistant when it occurs and I think in some cases there may have been some rust on the bearings originally or some environmental condition affected them. Maybe really moist air got trapped in the crankcase area and caused the rust.

I have never used after run oil and yet to have any bearing problems with my engines. Although, it does not mean it won't occur. It is sort of interesting how some guys at our field never use after run oil and never have problems and yet others have problems. The same goes with those that use after run oil. One thing is for sure from monitoring this at our field is that I cannot prove that after run oil helps at all, nor can I prove that it doesn't!

The important thing is to pull the engines and check them every so often and keep them clean and well maintained. [8D]


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