Wow, that sounds very reasonable!!!

i asked ET about this back in feb.
below email answer from ET about use of dual elevator servos and tailerons.

Hi Mongo,

Thanks for the email.

Dual Aileron support is currently implemented. It is possible to do the
same for Dual Elevators, but since the Guardian only has one Auxiliary
channel we have not implemented this feature. For now, a Y-Cable and
mechanical trimming would be needed for the second Elevator servo unless
there are enough people that would like to see Dual Elevators as an option
instead of Dual Ailerons.

“Tailerons� have not been tested with the Guardian but if elevon mixing can
be used, then it should work to connect the Guardian to them as though they
were elevons on a standard delta-wing plane.

Regards,
Eagle Tree Info
http://www.eagletreesystems.com
Ph: 360-544-8543
Fax: 425-484-4131

Very glad you had this thing going so well Duke, I ordered one after I spoke with you late in April and should be receiving mine sometimes this month! couldn't wait!

Thanks again,
Barry

Hey Barry

Thank you sir, I really like this unit it has a lot of features and works well. You gotta see this thing recover from inverted just too funny, hit the switch and its upright and level like now lol it's just too cool.

Here are my test results from Sunday.

I was able to load up the PC interface for the Guardian and do some additional testing this weekend. Sorry no additional video my friend was out of town that usually videos.

It was a typical windy day at the field (Kaneohe Bay)

03 16:57 NE 10 G 22 10.00 Partly Cloudy FEW028 SCT050 79 70 74% NA 82 30.08 1018.0
03 15:57 NE 13 G 20 10.00 Overcast FEW028 OVC055 78 67 69% NA 80 30.08 1018.2
03 14:57 NE 15 G 24 10.00 Partly Cloudy SCT027 SCT046 86 72 63% NA 92 30.09 1018.5
03 13:57 NE 12 G 18 10.00 Fair CLR 82 66 58% NA 84 30.11 1019.0
03 12:57 NE 13 G 21 10.00 Fair CLR 80 64 59% NA 82 30.13 1019.6
03 11:57 NE 13 G 21 10.00 Mostly Cloudy SCT030 SCT038 BKN050 80 64 59% NA 82 30.14 1020.2

Test 1: Ability to change, servo update rate with PC software. Most digital servos update at around 250 Hz, most analog servos about 50 to 70 Hz (Guardian default 50 Hz, the Futaba GY-401 analog setting is 70 Hz). In my F-4D I have Futaba S9156 servos on the elevons, and a JR DS368 servo on rudder (DS386 = 300 Hz update speed). I did not know the Futaba update speed but knew it was at least 250 Hz, so I set the Guardian at 250 Hz.

You must be careful when changing this setting you must use the lowest servo refresh rate of all you servos connected to the Guardian. If you had 2 digital servos and 1 analog for instance you would need to set it at 50 Hz, the digitals will work fine at this setting. If you try and run an Analog servo at a higher refresh rate than it can handle it will burn out.

Results: Two weeks ago, at 50% master gain the F-4D oscillated in roll, now at 250 Hz I was able to fly at full throttle at that gain without oscillation. Another effect was now my roll control was much more dampened and the overall effectiveness of the gyro was better. I did feel with the increased gyro effectiveness it felt like you had to really push the controls, this is where direct rate would be great.

Test 2: 2D mode recovery from unusual attitudes.

Method 1: Roll inverted recovery. Ok put Guardian in off position, then rolled the F-4D inverted (1.5 split S high just in case) activated 2D, it very, and I mean very quickly rolled upright and level no overshoot totally impressive, I will get video of this next week.

Method 2: Pitch straight up. Guardian off pulled F-4D into vertical climb turned 2D on plane pushed over leveled out non issue.

Method 3: Vertical dive. Guardian off pulled F-4D into loop on backside of loop pointing straight down turned 2D on plane pulled up leveled out non issue.

Conclusion: Testing went normally, the increased resolution that was available to the digital servos when you turn up the update speed was impressive, settings that resulted in oscillations at 50 Hz were rock solid at 250 Hz. The decreased control authority due to the Guardian working better really made me want to test direct 3D rate but did not have the time to set it up properly so that will have to wait for the upcoming Sunday.

List of approved radios? I can't find one.
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Its been 4 1/2 months, are there any updates on the ET testing in jets?

Hi Rich

I have not had any issues, I put a unit in my MB339 to play with the 3D heading hold, that was pretty cool. My friend put it in his ESM 50cc spit it works good in there.

Beyond that I have not had much time to play with it more, works been psycho, and we had our Museum airshow, followed by our Blue Angel show so im pretty burnt.
I'm trying to get my Mig 21 ready to maiden this weekend, im going to have the ET Guardian installed in taileron mode but also have conventional non stablized ailerons to see how that works.
Ill report here if I get it going. This weekend or next.

Thanks Duke, I'll be interested in the Mig 21 testing, my buddy just ordered a FB Mig 21 from Global Jet Club...

I have the ET Guardian in some foamies and am much impressed by it. However I do think it hss a definite limit of current since only one of the 4 servo leads from rx to the guardian carries power, the other three are signal only.. The current for all three or four servos goes through one cable which is fine for normal models but I would be wary of trying to run several powerful servos through it.

Hi Harry

True, ET said it was rated for 5A spikes of 10A
I just got around the problem by using a power bus to the servo, problem solved. In my F-4D I got lazy so I just used my Jomar/EMS glitch buster.
You could also just make a harness that you could run your power leads back to you're regulator, power box, or whatever power bus your using.

I would agree with you I would not run 3 or 4 high power digital servos through the unit.
With by-passed power not an issue, works great.

Hi Duke,

Did you see any speed related effects? Oscilations at high speed I would suspect?

How the hell are you BTW? Man it has been a long time!! I still remember those fun days at Superman! You guys were (are?) the hardest working guys in Jets!!

Hey Matt

Howzit! I wish I was there in BITW. I would be so fired if I went lol; Some of my critical Dr.'s computer went koo koo and my Maui coverage was also on Vacation so I was SOL this year.
My friend Tim made it up there; Woody was trying to make it but could not make it.
Hope life is treating you well. We are doing ok out here, trying to stay sane.

Thanks, we did work hard, not necessarily smarter lol. I learned my lesson it's just too nuts to ups a jet then try to put it back together in 18 hrs then fly. Need to have a rich uncle
somewhere in the mainland.

The unit has a overall gain that you can adjust in the air, if that happens. It also has a automatic flutter reduction so that if it does detect flutter there is a built in gain reduction.
On the ground you can also adjust yaw, pitch, and roll individualily to taylor the settings to the airframe. I have had to turn down roll on most models.

I'd be very interested in hearing more about this Eagle Tree used in the larger turbine jets. At speed, in gusty weather or in a large "parade style" gaggle of jets flying in trail, like at jet rallies, there is a noticeable tail waggle side to side in one of my jets. I suspect it's an over abundance of static stability about the yaw axis that gets started in turbulence and a small gyro correction would probably dynamically stop it right away.

I'm using a Smart Fly 10 battery bus and the servos feed from the bus. I could easily feed the signal to the bus via the Eagle Tree going in between the receiver and the bus input to get around the Eagle Tree internal bus amp limits.

HI Eddie (edit to add MB info)

I'm flying the Guardian in my MB339 (not needed for testing purposes mainly) It really makes fly more smooth, which is overkill with the MB as I have a Gen1 one that
weighs 43 lbs dry so wind is not a issue at all. I have flown it in 3D heading hold which has also been very interesting, being able to do 4 point rolls with out doing any rudder input just feels lazy lol.

The Guardian did stop a slight yaw waggle that the MB339 had if you flew while really banging the sticks around without correcting rudder. Had the same issue with my Global F-9F it had really bad dutch roll, so I put a Futaba 240 gyro on the yaw, that really helped smooth it out.

Id like to try moving the CG back to try relaxed stablity ie unflyable with out the gyro to see how it flys like that. Might be able to Knife edge much better like that!

RE: Power lead (edit add comment) Great idea on the Smart fly!, after my post on this I was thinking about what you said bout that nice thinking!. I have a bunch of planes with Smart flys that would be a really good way to do it just solder a longer lead to the smartfly input lead.

Ill show you what im doing for the Mig21, tried to save some wire by cutting the power leads comming from the servo and moving them to the connector that would normaly just be used for the rudder signal only.

I used the connector making kits from maxxproducts for JR type connectors for the metal female inserts.

I would have had this Mig21 done already but I have been delayed from work. We are moving to a new office in Dec and its been a bit busy so im slowly getting it done sorry Rich,
Ill report how it works with the Guardian hopefully next week.

Edit:

I just got one from Barry (KingTech) on Friday... so I'll be testing it soon.

Hi Tony

Too cool, I hope you like I’m really enjoying mine. Make sure you check out the section on direct rate and servo limits if you’re using 3d mode to stabilize with or without heading hold.

Effectively gives you a gyro with stick fade out when you move the sticks without having to program a mix on the gain to make that happen.

Ill explain what I mean and if you already know please disregard.

1. In a normal rate gyro when you move the stick the gyro will react and try to correct the movement you’re trying to input by giving a opposite control input reducing your control surface output you would normally have at that stick deflection. Some of us have called that the feeling of fighting the gyro.

2. To overcome this issue you can have a dual rate with a higher rate, or if your gyro has a R/C gain adjustment you can create a mix that greatly reduces the gain just off the center of your stick movement. Generally only high end computer radios are capable of these types of mixes.

3. Or you can buy some of the higher end Gyros like the ACT fuzzy pro, or The Power box IGyro that have this feature built in.

4. The Guardian takes a slightly different approach, direct rate looks at the % of your stick movement then tries to roll, pitch, and or yaw your aircraft at that % of the guardians set rate. (Programmable as rotations per second using the computer interface default is 1 per second)

As long as you hold full roll stick it will command full roll in the ailerons in an attempt to reach 1 roll per second. If your plane cannot achieve this it will go to full deflection trying to till you release stick. If your plane is able to do more it will back off the ailerons somewhat and maintain 1 roll per second.

What you will feel is a plane that is flying with no restriction on its controls however is stabilized even during maneuvering. However this is where we can run into some potential issues. The Guardian can drive the servos pretty far and if your aircraft cannot take the full throw of the servo you could easily have damage caused by the servos overthrowing trying to maneuver the aircraft to its programed limit.

This is where servo limits come in. If you have a servo millisecond reader EMS Jomar makes one if you don’t (http://www.emsjomar.com/SearchResult.aspx?CategoryID=6).
Measure the pulse width in milliseconds for full up and full down for your control surfaces. You can then set the limits for the servos in the guardian so it won’t be able to over throw your surfaces and possibly damage something.

Sorry for the long explanation, hope it helps. Let me know if you need anything clarified.
Duke

Thanks for the info. I haven't opened the box yet. (lol) So... I haven't read the instructions. I did down load the program for my PC from EagleTree.

I have an DX18 coming... So... I will set up my Frenzy 100 with it, and the new Tx. If all goes well... and the weather holds out... I'm going to try it on Friday, or over the weekend.

Once I get comfortable with the unit... I'm going to put it in a HotSpot that I want to set up with vector thrust.

Nice thats going to be cool.

Please let me know how that go's!

Duke, thanks for the explanation, as its more clear than the one in the manual.

As far as I know, you cant "program" your trims to the guardian in the air. It needs to be done in the ground. Correct?

Wow, great info guys. Duke, that's pretty great intel on this unit. Are you saying that if, for example, you have your jet programmed on the bench with specific end points to accommodate structural limits of control movement and linkage peculiarities...

1) If Max aileron on the jet is set at 90 percent servo throw of the servo for example, as intentionally limited by "end point" adjustments in the transmitter itself...
2) Will the Eagle Tree command more throw than the "90 percent end point" if it commands max rate for whatever reason and feels the transmitter set up control throws will not command this rate? (will it actually try to over drive the servo to beyond what the transmitter itself has, as the max limit of the servo at 90 percent per the setup)?
3) So the end points ont he transmitter can be over ridden? And if this is the case, what about if you have your end points set at 110%? Will the Eagle Tree simply only command 100 percent as a max rate command or will it command a much higher number if it feels the need for more rate?

Thanks guys.

Hi Edgar

That’s correct if you trim it sort of functions normally but, to re-center the 2d mode and the 3d mode properly you have to turn off the system then turn it on again. In 2d mode you kind of get a drift in 3d mode it's behaves more normally
Trim wise. I got to test an inflight trim reset; they took it out however feeling that it for most modelers it could possibly just do more harm than good.

I really never had an issue with small amounts of trim in the air.

Hi Eddie, thank you hope im helping here. It's a pretty sophisticated unit for $75 bucks.

1. Yes, the unit will move the servos [in direct mode only] to whatever position the guardian needs to perform the maneuver it has received from your tx sticks. It will not take in to account the endpoints you have programed it will only see
a pulse width and move servos accordingly unless you put servo limits in of course. Direct mode basicly puts the Guardian in charge of throws.

2. When in direct mode the guardian is only seeing stick input %. (What I’m not sure is if it always measures stick % throw against the full range of pulse width or does the guardian dynamically adjust for each radio.)
I would think that it takes your radio output in pulse width as a percentage of a normal 100% stick movement, as you never have to calibrate your sticks to the unit. Ill email Eagle tree and see what they say.

3. Yes in direct rate only, it doesn't care what your end point is set at. All it sees is you command a 50% roll then attempts a roll every 2 seconds for a 1 Hz or 1 roll per second setting.
It's sort of a simple flight computer; you tell it where you want to point the plane it moves the appropriate surfaces to do that at the intended rate.
If you do not check direct rate then all the transmitter settings will pass through.

As to will it command a much higher rate, it depends on if you have set servo limits setup or not, if you have not it will throw to the ele ctronic or physical limit of the servo if the desired rate is not achieved.
Interestingly enough however I have also found that in this direct mode you can use dual rates to control response, so at lower stick deflections the Guardian does have a scaled response.

Duke,

Which of the Guradian modes and settings will you recommend if the intent is to help stabilize a jet that is otherwise too sensitive, including helping on the landing portion?
Thanks

Mahalo Duke for the info and your experience on the Eagle Tree!

Hi Edgar

I find using 3d mode with direct rate enabled and servo limits set without heading hold works well to stablize planes, helps landing too. I fly my F-4D the whole flight in that mode almost all the time, I don't like landing it out of 3D mode as it really likes to kangaroo down the runway and pio on final with the guardian on its a piece of cake.

I really don't like flying this plane without the Guardian, its fun with it, very taxing to fly without.

During flying i use about 40% gain, For landing 75% gain on the F-4D skyray.

I have some guardian movies on my Youtube channel http://www.youtube.com/user/aero1965...e=results_main

Glad I can help, Eddie, Edgar.

Interesting videos! I nearly felt startled when you went high speed on the high gains, and the wing wobble set up!! I did not expect that. Nice recovery! So 50 percent or less works well for high speed and 75 percent on landing for your particular setup - thanks. Really interesting.