well, looks like 2 of the new owners are already bailing .... There is always Carlos for repairs, but as for me, i do not intend to drop another cent into my at400 , I'm just hoping to get a working aAT400 back, and soon, hopefully a new one, as after 4 in flight seizured, it would be completely unethical to just stuff me back with the same engine again, and that goes for any other at400 owners out there too... If i get the same at400 back and it siezes up a 5th time, believe me, all will know about it. Hopefully i can avoid taking the legal route (im including good old Jim in that statement too ) .. For now, lets give John over at AMT the benefit of the doubt and see how things are handled from here on out ...


Wojtek

Do you have any hard evidence to backup your statements? If not RCU would not support rumors or innuendos subject otherwise to the terms, exceptions and conditions of the use of this forum.

FWIW Woj, I feel sorry that you have to go through all the rigmaroles you are going through and hope you get a good resolution sooner or latter but hopefully much…much sooner than later.

Best Regards

Ben

Ummm...Ben...you missed the statement right here by the AMT people announcing it.

Wojtek, Back in april when I started this tread I was doing the do diligence that I felt was nessasary for my first turbine purchase. After several phone calls to AT400 owners I came to the conclusion that this engine for whatever reason was not a reliable powerplant at the time of my purchase. I like many others, saw the great potential for this Turbine. Its rated thrust and spool up time was the best out there. However, because of the uncertainty of the AMT's future and the history of service issues especially with the AT400, I felt it was in my best interest to go with AMT/NL and the Pegasus HP, for its tried and true reliability, from a design and company stability standpoint.......

After saying all that, I want to say that I am glad that AMT/USA has new owners with a new vision for the company. We as a hobby NEED people like this to continue the vision for our hobby. There success is important to all of us and I wish and hope for their future successes....

I feel bad for your misfortune being caught in the middle of the company transition and its product line. I think your position is strong. I hope AMT/USA can work with you and turn your situation around for the GOOD. They really owe that to the hobby. The best thing you can do in the mean time is to be a little sensitive and try to keep your negative comments between you and AMT/USA. I think for now it would be in the best interest of our great hobby and the future success of AMT/USA.


Sincerely, Dennis

Ben - in the separate "CAI" thread here: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=3541995 , "Tim and Leo Gerbus have chosen to step away from the hobby business. This includes CAI and AMTUSA. "

Gordon

OK, as a semi-retired moderator of this forum, I took it upon myself to place a long distance call to AMT USA to confirm the validity of Woj’s statement. (BTW, I do not get reimbursed by RCU for all the call I make while investigating some of the issues here in the Jet’s forum)

I spoke to a Mr. John Ligons who told me that the statement as presented by Woj is inaccurate.

In consideration with the foregoing, I would recommend that Woj edit his thread and remove all unsubstantiated statements subject otherwise to the terms, exceptions and conditions of RCU policies.

Thanks in advance for your prompt action, and once the post is edited, I will remove my posts that mentioned the aforesaid statements.


Best Regards

Ben

I could not disagree more emphatically. The "keep it under the table" thing is what led him to buy this duff engine(two of them, actually) in the first place.

Been there, done that, with a RAM. In public, everybody said how great it was, only AFTER I had problems, did all the guys say "well, we all knew there were problems, but did not want to say anything..."

And coming out here in public and trying to say they are not responsible for warranty work..."Oh, now we are Advanced MINIATURE Turbines, not Advanced MICRO Turbines....", well, it's baloney. It's wrong.

Ben, I love you, but you are out of line.

Thanks Gordon for pointing me to the thread. If you read his statement, they did not bail out. They are still part of AMT USA.

ET

You might be right Curtis. After rereading Johns statement in another thread pointed out to me by Gordon (which BTW was the same thing he told me on the phone, I could understand why Woj could have interpreted his statement the way he did.

I now humbly withdraw my statements and leave it to AMT USA to publicly correct the misleading statements.

Sorry for any inconvenience my action might have caused anybody especially to my good friend Woj.

Time to go and fire up my energizer bunny JETCAT P-120 and test fly by Bobcat for tomorrows Toy-For-Tots event.

No sweat. Me, I think I said my bit about this already, I think more stuff will come out on this issue, and you will see that I am right, and that something is rotten in Denmark, and it sure ain't the pastries.

Guys!
If my statement was not clear enough I apoligize.
Fact: Tim and Leo Gerbus are still part owners of R/P International Jets Inc. along with myself and Norman Robinson.
Fact: Tim and Leo choose not to be part of the day to day operations.

I respect the opionions of all in this small industry. I have many freinds in the industry that use products from us and many others.
Although I do not agree with all statements on these forums, I think it is important for people to be able to give their openions.
This is not Ford against Chevy, but simply peoples oppionions. Lets take it for just that.
We at AMTUSA are willing to help any modeler be succesful regardless of the products he or she chooses.
If we all did and liked the same things, what a boaring place this would be.
From what I know Wojetl and Easy-Tiger are great guys and I always welcome their opinions.
I am from Los Angeles and winter in new to me here in ohio. I will see you guys in the spring.

John Ligons
AMTUSA

Guys!
If my statement was not clear enough I apoligize.
Fact: Tim and Leo Gerbus are still part owners of R/P International Jets Inc. along with myself and Norman Robinson.
Fact: Tim and Leo choose not to be part of the day to day operations.

I respect the opionions of all in this small industry. I have many freinds in the industry that use products from us and many others.
Although I do not agree with all statements on these forums, I think it is important for people to be able to give their openions.
This is not Ford against Chevy, but simply peoples oppionions. Lets take it for just that.
We at AMT USA are willing to help any modeler be succesful regardless of the products he or she chooses.
If we all did and liked the same things, what a boaring place this would be.
From what I know Wojetl and Easy-Tiger are great guys and I always welcome their opinions.
I am from Los Angeles and winter in new to me here in ohio. I will see you guys in the spring.

John Ligons
AMT USA


Sorry about the bad grammar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Guys!
If my statement was not clear enough I apologize.
Fact: Tim and Leo Gerbus are still part owners of R/P International Jets Inc. along with myself and Norman Robinson.
Fact: Tim and Leo choose not to be part of the day to day operations.

I respect the opinions of all in this small industry. I have many friends in the industry that use products from us and many others.
Although I do not agree with all statements on these forums, I think it is important for people to be able to give their opinions.
This is not Ford against Chevy, but simply peoples opinions. Lets take it for just that.
We at AMT USA are willing to help any modeler be successful regardless of the products he or she chooses.
If we all did and liked the same things, what a boring place this would be.
From what I know Wojetl and Easy-Tiger are great guys and I always welcome their opinions.
I am from Los Angeles and winter in new to me here in Ohio. I will see you guys in the spring.

John Ligons
AMT USA

The Danish Carlsberg beer?

Do you care to elaborate for us[:-]?

Hi Seanreit.

Are you a dealer, as you have a shop?
Give me a PM of what you have around.

Brg
Gudmund

I think he just means his workshop.

Wojtek's 400 was test run 4-5 times today with no problems. I would like to know more of what happened on the last flight. You could PM me or post it. Intial inspection was that the rotating assembly was spinning properly with no noise other than normal. I had Derrik take off the outer housing and do a visual inspection of the turbine wheel/stator wall and look for areas where the wheel would have made contact. The motor was reassembled and ran flawlessly. I do not have a test plane for engines but am interested in a new Boomerang ARF, has anyone seen the price for one?

Rodney Evans~Technicial Specialist AMT-USA

AT-400 on a Boomer--I gotta see this!!--To adequately test the engine in flight you will need to purchase a plane that can take sustained full throttle runs. If you've ever seen how many of the guys push their planes at a rally you would understand this. Flying around at 1/4 to 1/2 throttle isn't adequate flight testing. I don't think that the Boomerang is the plane for testing this engine. Please forgive me if I seem as though I'm bashing you...I WANT you guys to succeed!!! I've spent a good chunk of change in the past w/AMT and all of us that have your products want service after the sale----Which we won't have if AMT's doors ever close....Did I fail to mention again that my Mercury has yet to be serviced or have a flameout in the three seasons I've owned it.....

Kevin

Hi Rodney:

Had a chance to see the Boomerang XL at FIJR.....very nice......new airfoil, modeled after a high performance glider.......much faster but still flys slower than most anything out there.....better check on dimensions of engine mount rail separation.....Alan was flying it with a 30 lb. Digitech which is KJ-66 size case.....can't remember how much room there was to accomadate a Peggy size engine......

40 kits are on the boat right now, headed for Patricia Cardash's place in Dallas.....she is Allan's sister and the U.S. distributor....

Price is going to be $1295.00 plus shipping to your door from Texas.......

Their website is:

http://www.boomerangjets.com/


Tom

I just got back in now, so here is what happened .... Flying around, and on a slow low pass, at idle, the engine dies ... came around and landed ... When I got to the plane, I tried blowing some more air through it with a blower to cool it down but it did not turn. When it cooled down, I tried turning it by hand, and it was stuck. ... After a few more attempts to turn it, something let loose with a bit of a clang, and it spun freely, this was similar to the 1st time it ever seized up on me, and at that time I was told it was an issue with a preload washer. When spun over by hand now, there was a noticeable clanging coming from it, this was not the typical sound if bearings being loose either, i have over a dozen engines, and I know what good bearings can and should sound like, and this clanking was definitely different. I have 2 people who were out at the field with me that day, and they can attest to this .. one of them being a very experienced and notable jet modeler. To tell you the truth, i thought the bearing cage blew out by the sound of the noise. by the way, i did plug the GSU into the ECU, and the error indicated failure was due to was "low RPM". After I got the engine back from the factory last, it ran just fine 3 times, all during 8+ min flights ... all shutdowns were cooled down with air to below 90c with both a blower and compressed air. On the 4th flight when it quit on me .. and as on the prior seizures , ( one of them was so bad, the turbine shaft would not spin at all .... ) the engine dies at a low throttle setting, after a round 2 - 4 min of flight at varying throttle positions. I'd love to be all excited that it ran fine on the bench, but when will it seize up again ?? 4 flights later ? 10 ? what was the clanking sound ? if its not the bearings, not the preload, not the holes to the wrong spec, not the bearing housings in the tunnel, then what ?? I refuse to be a guinea pig any longer? This engine has caused 4 in flight failures, each almost catastrophic... I can only see 2 ways I'll ever fly a at400 on my king cat again, either on a brand new at400 which is built to new spec, or if the old one comes back with a warranty that is inclusive of covering my KingCat for crash damage in case of subsequent failure, including property damage that may occur due to an engine failure induced crash.. Rodney, of all the guys at AMT, I appreciate your help and support the most. You of all people understand the most as to what I’m dealing with as you have worked on my engine back while AMT was with Jim in WV, and now in OH with the new guys (i guess it was not just an asset purchase was it ... hmmmm ... ) .... By the way, i also got the voicemail tonight that John Ligons left on my phone .. I will call you on Monday John and we can go over this further... anyway, let me know what you guys will do about the engine.


Wojtek

I agree .. i have my KingCat at full throttle for 1+ min at a time sometimes, especially when doing a full throttle circuit, followed by some verticals, with power on tumbles , etc ... if not at full, im making slow passes at almost idle nice and low .... A boomerang would just blow apart i think ... ( nothing against the boomerang, as they are graeat, but not built for that kind of power ) What would be the best case here would be for the actual problem to be identified on my at400, especially to know if it is a defect on the dud I have, or if it might affect others as per the engines spec/design ...


regards,




Wojtek

I have been going through my notes I have been keeping in regards to my issues with the at400. One of the things I have noted here, and do in fact even remember specifically being informed of is regarding AMT’s intentions on warranties. I actually believe it was you John ( if not, then it was someone else, but nonetheless, this was under the new ownership of AMT ) that yourself told be early on when you guys first were moving AMT over to the new facility that all issues were going to be covered under warranty, and told me about a plan for warranting all AMTs. I was specifically told that AMT was going to announce that all AMT engines were to have a lifetime warranty, except for FOD damage, or lack of proper care/maintenance, as you had felt that AMT’s were so reliable and bulletproof It was going to be one of the ways you were going to revitalize and remarket AMT by… several weeks later I was told I could send my engine in for the repair .. and it was only once you had it disassembled that I needed $600+ of repair ( which I paid ½ of ) .. I guess original promises and aspirations completely fell apart huh ?? and I was duped into letting you charge me what you did. I should not only be requesting a new engine from you, but also my $300 back …..


Also regarding the repairs, I have a question for Rodney:

The last time my at400 was in for repair in WV while Jim owned the company, you told me that if I waited another few weeks that AMT was going to be getting in new Iconel combustion chambers, and you would upgrade mine to the new ones which were becoming standard on the at400s … several weeks later you told me my engine was fixed, upgraded, reassembled and tested. In fact , I remember you telling me that because my temps were now so low with the new chamber and the tolerances of my engine that you were then able to crank it up for even a little more thrust ( I believe it was putting out 41 lbs ). …. Here’s where it gets fun … The next time my engine went in for repair after yet another seizure and ONLY 1 FLIGHT ( This was at FBF … you remember that one guys ?? ) was into the new facility in OH … John and Tim told me that part of the $600 of repairs incurred was a new combustion chamber that I needed , as the old stainless steel one was totally corroded … W--T--F !!!!!

1) I though I had a new Iconel combustion chamber put in already only 1 flight before ??
2) With a total of around 30 flights, how the hell would even a cheap stainless steel chamber of the worse possible quality have gone bad ? come on, even jet-joe chambers outlast that !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
3) Who lied to me and when ? did I have a new Iconel chamber installed at the WV facility by you Rodney ?? I was told back then that this was the case….. or am I being lied to by the new owners in OH ?? SOMEONE LIED !! and I want to know who !!!


I would like my $300 back please … and that’s on top of a replacement brand new working at400 ( or buy mine back at a 10% depreciated value) …



Wojtek

Rodney, i was there for the last flight of Wojtek's kingcat and the last failure of his 400. it in fact did have a foreign sound coming from the engine. the engine shut down from low rpm's as indicated by the GSU and the sound was noticeable from a distance. it was a clanking sound.

Are you sure that you inspected wojtek's engine?

Although not on an AMT, I do have some experience of an engine making horrible sounds in flight, being hard to rotate on the ground, and yet not making any such sounds when run afterwards...

On my oldest P120, during one flight the engine started making horrendous screeching noises ; I immediately landed & shut down, then checked by hand to see if the turbine would rotate freely ; although it would turn, it caught at a certain point on each rotatoin , and bound up at that point. John Redman turned up about half an hour later, so I took the engine over to him .. and was surprised when it turned over perfectly freely. Matt Carrol came over & asked me if I'd been doing my usual hard snap-rolls during htat flight, and I conformed that I had. Form ta twe pieced together what had happened - during the snaps, the whole rotating assembly had managed to move just enough for the turbine and / or compressor to rub slightly ; that friction caused an instant heat increase, wihch in turn caused expansion which caused more rubbing, etc untlil I shut down. On the ground, the engine was initially still warm enough for the components to rub when I checked it over, but by the time John arrived everything had cooled down back to its "normal" fit.

Now, I'm not suggesting that snaps had anything to do with Woj's scenario here - just pointing out that it is in fact perfectly feasible to have an engine screeching etc, and then to have that go away when tested later. In my case there was visible eveidence of what had happened though, and about $45 later John gave it a clean bill of health.

Later,
Gordon