Ben, I have thought of that myself ..here’s my take on it .. for several of the failures my ECU and pump have in fact been in with the engine for repair. Nothing was ever wrong with either The install is so simple in the king cat that it might as well be on a test stand. Once running, there is only the RPM sensor, EGT, and fuel line that run back to anything inside the plane, all of which is visible with the canopy off anyway. Besides today, all other failures in the air were associated by physically being seized, clanking, or some other mechanical unusual noise, etc ... I have not had the symptoms I had today occur before ( not exactly) but what it all comes down to is that the engine QUIT IN FLIGHT and FAILED, it was one flight ago that the engine ran fine, idlea and all for 4 flights .. then it seizes up , and not it not only quits in flight, it wont run right on the ground either ... I no longer feel like a guinea pig, .. after today, its more like a LAB MONKEY ! At this point, I’m sure if I send everything back in to AMT again, sure, they will fix whatever is wrong NOW, and it will just quit on me in flight AGAIN ... hey, last time I had 4 flights before a failure, the time before that it was 1, time before that almost 20 ... so the lesson is, AMT = Russian roulette .., I’m getting tired of this .. sorry I’m going off like this .. I’m just still very ticked off like this ....

Oh, by the way, 2 struts on my king cat are now also slightly bent after a closer inspection all thanks to AMT !!! [>:][>:]




Wojtek

The first time that you tried to fly (when you were spooling up with the brakes on and it died with lots of smoke) sounds like a hang-up (too much fuel being dumped into the engine and it dies rich, so to speak).

When it was running at full throttle (when you actually flew) did it sound normal and have expected max thrust?

Wojtek, what I saw and heard today from your AT 400 sounded like a bad or clogged fuel nozzle. I can say with confidence that you did put oil in the fuel If you noticed today everytime you spooled down you had the classic sign of unburnt fuel, ( the white smoke). Your motor never sounded like It ran with any kind of stability[] My best guess would be that the incomplete combustion ( white smoke ) is whats causing the roughness and popping we heard today. Sorry I had to be the one to win the bet about how manny flights you would make before you had a problem, but at least I did not seize !

You do not have anything to be sorry about BUD and you are 100% entitled to be VERY VERY ticked off.

Best Regards

Ben

Woket, the engine did not choke when throttling up, it was when going down to idle .. sorry, I can see how I worded that improperly..

Don, you may be right, i don't know ... here is a video of the symptoms .. The engine gets throttled up to 1/2, and then brought back to idle, right at idle it makes that phhheeeuuuww sound, and puffs smoke ... it quit on the ground ince running it up like that, and then the 2nd time when taxiing out .. after that I created an extremely shallow throttle curve and slowed down the throttle channel to 2.5 sec transition time ... this did have a little effect, but the engine still puffed smoke and made that unusual sound going to idle when the stick was pulled back quickly .. During the flight i made sure to keep the stick at least at 1/3 - 1/2 stick ( that would be around 1/8 - 1/4 thrust as per my curve .. Before the engine quit, i do remember running like 2 - 3 laps at full on 100% power .. I’m pretty sure it was the next pass after that which i did at like 1/3 - 1/2 stick on the throttle .. by the time it was flying by me it was dead .. it definitely dies somewhere near 1/2 stick when it quit ....

here is the link to the video of the ground run ... im sure the FBF boys will be posting pictures the the plane being carried back to the flightline later ... [&o]

http://www.voy-tech.net/Videos/AT400.wmv


Wojtek

Sounds to me like you've got a fuel problem. A leaky line, bad fitting, blocked clunk, dirty filter or insufficient tank vent maybe.

I'm not sure about your earlier problems, but I was at the AMT factory Friday a week ago (11/11). They were running the s**t out of your engine trying to make it fail. I heard it running over and over throughout the day. Full throttle, idle, quick spoolups, quick idle cuts...everything they could think of.

'Low RPM' error is what you get if the fuel flow quits or is significantly reduced. A sudden fuel stop (with subsequent sudden lubrication failure) is definitely BAD on the bearings, especially if you're still airborne and windmilling. Rapid shutdown from full throttle while flying can 'shock cool' the engine causing the thinner parts to cool faster than the turbine wheel. This can occasionally cause a temporary lockup situation. It will be OK after the temps equalize as long as you don't try to turn it. I've had this happen a couple of times on my jet sailplane when I shut down in flight after a hard acro routine (lots of full throttle time), and left the engines exposed to the cold air while landing. (BTW, it's still running.)

I've been running two AT-450's on my jet sailplane for a year now without a single maintenance issue, failed start or shutdown. The AT-450 uses most of the same parts as the AT-400. I'm running these engines HARD! 20 minutes or more at 106,000 RPM. I typically burn 8-11 GALLONS of fuel per flight. I have over 13 hours on one engine and 10 hours on the other with no signs of any problems. I've flown airshows at 106 degrees, and self-launched at a 10,000' density altitude (hot day at 6200' MSL). I've cruised at 100,000 RPM for almost an hour. I've restarted at over 10,000' In my experience, these engines are bullet-proof. If I didn't firmly believe this, I wouldn't be using them to fly my own butt inverted at 50'.

As for the warranty issue, the details of a business purchase can be very complicated. I seriously doubt if they are doing anything illegal. I got caught up in this myself with my spare engine, which had gone back to the old company for a 'checkup' before the airshow season started. I just got it back about a month ago. Throughout the whole ordeal, I found John and Norm to be very easy to deal with, and willing to work to a reasonable solution. I feel that AMT-USA is in very capable hands. Norm has a great deal of experience in handling large-scale production contracts, and is making sure things are done right before proceeding. There is a saying that goes something like "the only thing more over-rated than owning your own business, is natural childbirth". These guys have taken on a lot. I'm sure there will be some teething pains, but I am confident they can handle it. I look for AMT-USA to do great things in the future.

Bob Carlton
Silent Wings Airshows
www.silentwingsairshows.com

Wojtec, What is the throtle setting in your radio? I am refering to Low travel setting and then High travel setting and does your kingcat have a UAT in it? I know the plane comes with one, Im just asking if you have it in your plane....Ray Blair

Woj

When I first got my AT-400 it would act the same as what you are experiencing. They said that my pipe size was not the correct dia so I had Tam make another one for me. Still the same, so I put it on the bench with no pipe involved. Still the same. Then messing with the throttle curve was suggested. I fly JR 10X and when programming the failsafe there is no way to have it drop to idle with a curve. So if a split-second failsafe condition occurs it's a FLAMEOUT! An engine that cannot withstand a brief failsafe condition is junk. I sent it back and they tweeked the ECU so that it won't do that any longer which is what makes it the sluggish P.O.S. that it is today. Problem solved!

regards,
Kim

my fuel system is free and clear with a UAT. Besides the line running from the pump directly to the engine which is 4mm, all other lines in the entire fuel system are 6mm polyetelene. I have plenty of vent, which even if inadequate, should not make a pump like AMT usses have any issues anyway. .. i can tell as durring fueling none of the tanks show any indication if even wanting to swell. The engine never experienced deceleration issues on this plane for the past 2 dozzen + flights, now i get it back and it does ??? its not my fuel system.. As for failsafe, my ECU has a 2 sec dellay programed in. I have tested this on the plane after i got the ECU back with the mod to work with the 10X.

Bob, I agree, John from my experience has been a guy very nice to deal with, however not honoring the waranties is in fact agains FTC and UCC regs. Im sure AMT is not deliberately breaking these regs by not honoring old warranties, but it is still not within the code of trade laws and regulations. I'm not just shooting my mouth off here, i have been shown the had factc by my lawyer on how trade, and in particular how interstate trade/business works ...

anyway, I'm done being a lab monkey. After 6 or more trips back to the factory with this engine, and several near catastrophic in flgiht failures, i have absolutely no confidence left in the AT400. I am absolutely fed up with all this .... AMT, make this nightmare go away, and just give me my $ back []


Wojtek

Woj

If you share the secret to getting your money back and it works for me too, I'll split with you!
Barring that, I'm thinking of the handle design I'm going to use for my beer mug.

Kim

Woj---If this guy did indeed witness your engine running I would request from AMT the fuel pump and ECU they were using to test your engine. Are you using an EDT to check your throttle curve???

Kevin

Kim,

on he one NIB at400 i bought in the days of Jim, i called my CC company and canceled the charges ...



Kevin, that’s a good point .. If the engine did indeed run on a bench at the factory, the only difference here could be that my ECU and/or fuel pump are to blame ... however this also at the same time does not make sense ..... the pump and ECU had worked fine for a while now, and actually have been in to the factory a few times with the prior seizures .. A bad pump/ECU will not make an engine blow bearings ... as it is , at400 had issues which were supposedly a combination of out of spec bearings and improperly drilled cooling / oilier holes in the shaft tunnel ... the last time my engine quit, there was a noticeable clanking in the engine after it un-jammed. This time, the engine spun freely, but it did quit, and the symptoms of going to idle were new to me .. when it quit in the air, it was at least at 1/3 throttle , and this was not an issue of it spooling down to idle erratically and quitting .. in this case, i would think it was more the engine over the ECU/Pump ...

bottom line, it still does not work []



Wojtek

I can see your point----But to eliminate a potential problem source I would still request the fuel pump and ECU....The previous lock-up problems appear to be in the past. The only things that could cause the problem you are now having (barring anything mechanical like a clogged injector nozzle, fuel system problem, etc) are the ECU and fuel pump. Are you using the EDT to set up your engine---if not then it is just a shot in the dark getting the throttle points right. You can get the curve close by listening to the beeps, however, I checked my work after just going by the beeps and the points were off slightly. I doubt it is a throttle point problem though...

Kevin

yes, i have used the EDT .. as for the curve, i us4ed the trottle curve function on the 10x .. its kind of like ading expo to the throttle response ... I just don't know how much more experimentation im willing to take ... how many more seized flights and damaged gear ?? I will speak with John on Monday and see where this goes .. I also guess I will be giving BVM a call to see if my gear can be straightened out by me, or if i have to send it in .. ..



Wojtek

Wojtek,

If you're so sure it's the engine, and not some other problem with your installation, I'll give you $2500 for the engine right now, sight unseen. I've got another project that could use a pair of AT-400's. If I don't get at least 6 more hours out of it, I'll give you another $1000. If you can take a credit card, give me a call or email and I'll give you CC number. At 6 hours, I'll send you the logbook entries, or the $1000. Jetmax, you interested in this offer for your "sluggish POS"?

Bob Carlton
Silent Wings Airshows
Albuquerque, NM
505-275-5945
[email protected]

Bob

I'd be happy to unload it for $2500! Just PM me with how you want to arrange things.

Kim

no ...


I spent $4500 for a 45lbs engine WITH WARRANTY, and now more $ in repair bills. To sell for $4500 would mean at least another $2000 loss for me to get another engine .. for at least the principal of it, i want AMT to get me a working 40 lbs engnine. If anyone wants to buy it, then buy the whole KingCat ... I'll seel that for $9800 (original cost on all excluding build cost is over $13K on all this) with engine, all 8611s, RX on CH 45, additional keblar hopper, smoke system, bomb drop, cockpit, pilot,. the whole works, and even let you have the start equipment, plane is in perfect shape except for a bent gear which i am having fixed, and a paint scuff on the underside of the wing from the last landing ( which have toutch up paint for) ...


Wojtek

Any updates?

Jetmax,

I sent you a PM last night with my cell phone number. Give me a call.

Woj,

I hope you get things worked out. I'll be happy to discuss this further offline, but I think this thread is no longer productive to the community in general.

Blue skies to all,

Bob C

this quote is VERY PRODUCTIVE to the community, and will remain as such until my problems are 100% resolved .. I'm not going to sweep this under the carpet and pretend its not there.... . i wish there were productive threads like this when I originally bought my at400s , then I would have known not to ... not only was there a lack of productive threads, there was also a lack of productive info from the reps who knew the reality of AMT's problems ..

as for an update, John has requested that now I send in the ECU and fuel pump back in with the engine. So this is AMTs 3rd attempt now to get me a working engine (under the new ownership) .. John kept assuring me he wants to do everything he can to do what is right by my, but when i asked him what he would do if the engine would quit again, and cause damage on my aircraft, what he would do then ... this has been the case over and over now, and why should I be AMTs product research monkey ??


Wojtek

Woj

How about sending the whole thing to them including the airplane. They can get it sorted out and have Terry N test fly it (he is in Columbus and AMT is in Cincinnati ) before sending it back to you. I will make them sign a contract that if anything happens to your aircraft, they will pay you an agreed replacement $$. My reasoning is this: If the engine malfunctions again and cause the airplane to crash, they will be 100% responsible as compared to the engine malfunctioning while you are testing it yourself.

JMOHO.

Woj, I feel your pain, but any-one who sends their motor in for repair should allways send in the ECU, fuel pump, Battery(if possible)and any other parts of the motor so that the manufacturer can run the motor with your set up...If you had done this you may have had an answer today.... I'm just saying it seems reasonable to me that John has requested these items.. You never did answer my question regarding your throttle high and low settings.???? Have you tried by passing your " extra " tank. Remember you said you had an extra Kevlar tank in the plane?????

I have found the perfect home for the 400, A friend who shall remain nameless felt that his 400 needed a new home.

The expression on his face says everything[:'(]

Apparently he left the protecive end caps on!

the caps are there to hold the loose parts in and to eliminate contaminating his plumbing....