Well well , lots of great discussion , by well informed and experienced people, and comments by the usual bashers, but as a lightning owner and pilot I have had to read every word with a voracious appetite. and inwardly digest, But for absolute certainty I will remove my lightning tailplane, ( two Bolts ) and check it out as much as possible... for safety sake , I,m on my second one and I love the plane... I am always aware that one screw vibrating out, or slightly too big a hole in a servo arm can cause the most catastrophic failure and a smoking hole in the grass that cost 10 G's to put there........so I urge all my fellow lightning flyers to take heed and check their planes........and Yes David Gladwin does have a really funny attitude to model airplanes..................he dos'nt want to get wiped out whilst enjoying his hobby !.......nothing funny about that,, neither do I , but more importantly I don't want to wipe someone else out either....... best wishes to all............happy landings..................MK

As an owner of two Lightnings, I have been following this thread with some interest.

First off ... Rob, sorry you lost the plane. You have been deprived of many hours of enjoyable flying.

Second, for the engineers, could someone do some quick math to determine what the approximate force is that would be acting on the stab under duress, such as a high G pull-out? Doesn't need to be precise, but an approximation would work. As with full scale aircraft, it would seem a simple thing to test the load bearing capability of the stab at some multiple of the maximum force you would expect.

Third, I'd like to hear from Rob that there were no external impact events, such as off runway excursions or gear up accidents in previous flights. I tracked crash statistics for two years for the JPO and found that many structural failures had proximate causes that took some time to come into evidence. If this was mentioned in an earlier post I somehow missed, I apologize for repeating the question.

In my opinion only, it is unfortunate that this has become so public before Rob and CARF have had an opportunity to really sift through all the evidence, both physical and circumstantial.

Many thanks for your kind offer Sandor, I'm still pretty much down from the crash and have only just checked the stab servos/linkage, at the request of comp-arf, which are complete and working fine.

I will be going through the rest of the avionics and engine in due course when I can muster up some enthusiasm, the wreckage is currently lying in my garage awaiting further inspection.

Regards

Rob.

Rob

Having looked at a Comp-Arf Lightening I dont see how you could even start removing the servo screws with the tail plane still attached to the fuselage. In Post #96 you can see that the tail plane is attached to the fuselage and even see the fin!

Steve

Kick the guy when he's down! Here, let me roll him over so you can kick him in the face!
Doubt the servo screw, missing or not, caused the loss of both tailplanes...I see three OTHER servo screws right where they are supposed to be, if the servo started fluttering, all three screws would be gone, no? Don't know what caused the crash, but I doubt it was that missing servo screw, if it WAS missing during the flight...
[:@]

OK, I don't want to get into some big debate over a servo screw, both servos were installed as per the manual using all 4 screws in each, there is no way I am going to leave a servo screw out of any jet I fly. Several people were taking photos at various stages and I did spend a fair amount of time taking things apart and putting them back together to accomodate them.

It would be nice to reach some sort of closure with the manufacturer on this one, preferably sooner rather than later.

Regards

Rob.

Rob I think you are being extremely naive if you expect any reasonable outcome dealing with Mr Gietz. Those of us who have had dealings with this unsavory amoral character are still smarting from the experience, good luck!

m

ask DG

Mick

What a bitter hobby we are in...

Dave

Not bitter...realistic.
Someday that will likely be YOU getting Geitzed. Ask some of their previous dealers what they think of Geitz. Right now, you are selling his stuff, and making money, and that's all good, but if experience shows anything, he will leave you in the lurch when push comes to shove. So don't discount someone else's experience as just bitterness, it's unfair, there is enough of a proven track record to say that most likely his experience is quite valid. Didn't sound bitter to me, just trying to warn a fellow modeller.

Hey Rob, not sure you saw the question in my earlier post but I would like to know if you had any incidents prior to the stab failure such as an off-runway excursion or a gear up trip down the runway? Any other incident that might have stressed the stab in any way?

I'm not in this to defend or attack CARF, or you for that matter .... just trying to understand the risks for my bird.

Hi Keith, I am always very maticulous in the preparation and care I take with all the airframe components. One of the main gear oleo pins did shear at low speed on an early take off run but this was attributed to excessive toe-in. The oleo remained supporting the airframe and I cannot recall the stab touching the ground at any point.

From your point of view I would follow Com-arf advise, and speak to your rep, they are the experts.

Regards

Rob.

Dave, in general we are not in a bitter hobby nor a bitter life. My dealings with you and other members of our hobby have been more than satisfactory. Unfortunately occasionally in life you come across individuals who get away with treating people in a way they would not wish to be treated themselves. Don't bet your business on Rob being treated fairly, thats all.

m

Mick

I don't sell Comp ARF products..they do, I just deal with orders. We don't get a margin.
I'm a rep for the company...they don't pay me a penny.
I deal with it because I think its a good product...and it helps me sell other releated parts.
Other people say a lot, but they still return and fly the product-because it's good value and flys well.
Nothing and no one is perfect!

Best Regards

Dave

Well said Dave and very true!
The problem is though, that not everyone realizes or accept that fact!!! And then things can go wrong very fast, no matter in what business you're into.

I hope things get sorted out for Rob, so we can move on.

Regards Thomas

Clint Eastwood: "A man has to know his limitations"

All interesting stuff. I'm delayed in Bahrain due to a tech. Airbus (things do go wrong in aviation !) ex LHR causing a missed connection to SIN and SYD but when I get home I'll collate all of the PMs and emails I've had and submit the findings.

Regards,

David Gladwin.

arent the airbusses made of composite?
be carefull on take off!

My thoughts exactly. No offense intended to Dave Wilshire, whose reputation(and enthusuasm for the hobby) are stellar. Mick did not sound bitter to me.

Definitely not wanting to stir the pot( as I am very interested in owning one) , but I heard another Comp Arf Lightning crashed at Jet Power this last weekend. Is this really true or just a nasty rumour? Paul.

Hi roo!

It's not a rumor, but it didn't crash due to a structural problem. It went in in one piece! Probably a radio malfunction. The guys flew their Lightnings the whole weekend during the Jetpower, so they are sure they will handle the stress. Or would you, as a manufacturer, fly it at the biggest event if you knew it might crash?

Wolfgang Kluehr still flies his pre-production one and that seems to be in perfect conditions.

David Büsken

hi dave has it all been iron out yet as to what will be done for rob as he is the one that has lost out too many rumours kicking around on pm and no one talking to the person who has lost his model regards jetman

I see on another thread, now locked, (judge and jury) that this thread has been described as turning into a Lightning "Bash". Just what is required on this forum, do we sweep unsavoury issues such as structural failure under the carpet or do we discuss things as they really ARE and live in the REAL world ?

I have a had a LOT of feedback about similar structural problems, should I just keep quiet, ignoring reality, and if so why ?

Regards,

David Gladwin.

David,

My point is that:

1) There have been similar issues raised about other planes from manufacturers that advertise with RCU and they were immediately turned off. Which for some reason isnt the case here... all Im asking for is that if RCU wants unbiased opinions that they act accordingly. Either way! Let the threads go or dont I really dont care, but dont let one continue while shutting others off.

2) This thread is a BUILD thread. If you want to start a stab failure thread, go ahead. Your arguement may or may not be valid. Once again, I dont care. BUT YOU ARE OFF TOPIC in this one.

3) Every plane has its date on it. One day it is going to go in, some sooner than others. Because one or two go in, doesnt make it a complete failure. Nobody has really given CA a chance to check the validity of your claims for that matter. But I also find it interesting that ET (a foamie jet flier) and yourself...neither of which own a Lightning seem to know it all about the construction of a Lightning. You may or may not be receiving all these supportive emails, but do you really know who they are coming from? I find it hard to believe that they ALL own a Lightning. Are they from credible sources? Are they some kind of engineer?

The other thread that David talks of is the crash of my lightning at markham Park, nothing to do with structural failure of any kind, but to those who are interested . my tailplane was undamaged in the crash, so since i have little left i thought i would remove the skin and take a look inside , which I did , firstly even though I had sliced through the skin surface with a dremel and cut off tool, the skin was extremely difficult to prise off the structure underneath, , there was a quarter inch wide seam of resin glue on every square inch of structure, ribs formers etc, underneath the main long mounting bolt is a thick, resin coated balsa block, which prevents one from compressing the tailplane by overtightening the mounting bolts and weakening the structure there ..... every nook and cranny was lined with the same resin glue and although the stablisiser was very light it was also immensly strong... the weakest point is obviously the slot cut into the under surface for the arm to exit.. once this aperture is cut, then the only way to replace the strength is to glass cloth the inside through the servo mounting.... HERE ARE SOME PICTURES , LETS SEE WHAT YOU ALL THINK

Sorry Malcom, I have no recall whatsoever of of mentioning anything about your your crash at Markam Park. Please enlighten !

Regards,

David Gladwin.

PS If your stab was undamaged after crashing what is your view on the likely cause of the double failure of the stabs. on Rob Rowbottam's Lightning. It did fail , I saw it !

Pilot34,

I agree with your level headed comments and with you in suggesting that if David Gladwin wishes to carry in with a thread regarding this incident, then take it away to another and lets get back to lightning builds.

Trevor Skedge.