I am looking into building the BVM T-33 as this has been one of my favorites for a long time. My dad was in the forces, and most of my childhood, always had a T-33 that I could walk around, and on the odd occasion have a seat in. I have not seen much activity about this kit, as I know that it has been out for some time now, but I would like to know more about its flight characteristics. Most of the strings on this plane were in the ducted fan era, and before the modification to the leading edge cup that supposedly caused a more dramatic stall. I have a Jetcat P60 that I fly in my Reaction that does very well to pull this 21 lb plane around. My intent is to use this engine in the T-33, as they seem to be similar in size and weight. I would appreciate any information on this plane, good or bad, before I invest this much money.
Thanks

I have a bunch of flights on a BVM T-33 that was powered by an AMT 180. I would probably go with a P-70 or P-80 in the T-33. A P-60 will fly it, but takeoffs will be longer.

The BVM T-33 flys very nicely. I always loved the way that airplane looked and sounded in the air. It was, however, not the easiest plane to land. You had to get it down on the main gears only with just a small amount of sink rate or it would bounce. If you didn't catch it on the first bounce, then bad things happened. There are plenty of jets that have this problem, and the T-33 is one of them. More than once the T-33 that I flew (belonged to a NASA group I work with) was in the shop for a new nose gear, or new gears all around...

Bob

Did you have the modification on your leading edge to remove the under camber as described by Bob V?

HI, I have the F80, which is basically a single seat version and agree on rhklenke comments on landing, I will try a more aft CG this year , to try to soften the landing.
Rcpete
PS, I have a P70 in mine and think it is a good combination.

The leading edge cusp has been deleted from T-33 production for the last couple of years.

There is an addendum on the BVM website showing step by step instructions for the removal of the cusp on earlier kits.
It can be accomplished easily, and greatly improves the low speed characteeristics.


Harley Condra
BVM REP
JetCat REP

I've been flying my old T-33 converted from ducted fan to a Wren mkIII, 14 pound thrust. This has been comfortable power, plenty for the job, but definitely not overpowered, yet still throttle back in cruise and rolling manuevers. Mine had, until this winter, the original BVM gear, too fragile for the weight of a turbine conversion. I converted to BV's latest setup after seeing one do the dreaded bounce last year and come away with only scratched paint, all four corners, and no landing gear damage, impressive.
Landing the T-33 has always been a precision affair, get it right, its a thing of beauty. The plane really floats in ground effect, but you have got to flair it out long enough to get the mains to touch before the mains, period, fail to get it slow enough, and she will start hopping wildly.
I love the flying the T-33, like an old type patternship, smooth and precise. Ground handling is very good even with the narrow gear, but good aileron use on crosswinds is required to save the tiptanks. She's not a trainer jet, but with good runways and proper flying technique it is a wonderful jet, I wouldn't trade mine.
Jim Hiller

Our T-33 was the original with the under camber, but yes, we did the mod as instruced on the BVM website. Actually, that didn't seem to effect the bounce issue. I think that Rcpete's suggestion of moving the CG aft is a good one. Our T-33 had the older style fuel tanks with a large one up front that drained first. If you tried to land it early in the flight when the CG was forward, it was almost always a disaster. The new model has saddle tanks that reduce the CG shift with fuel burn, but staying towards the aft side of CG range will help keep the nose up on landings I think.

Like I said, many jet models have the bounce issue. My son's A10X had it bad and I did it at Florida Jets (distracted during the flare) and damaged the model quite a bit. A well executed T-33 landing is a thing of beauty though and if you can land that consistently, you can land just about any jet...

Bob

With the landing gear upgrade (same as bandit gear) and the leading edge mod you will love the bird.
The new AFS kit has made the build much better in terms of flap set up and hinges.
I couple years ago I talked to Tommy D at the BVM factory and he told me that it had become his favorite plane to fly and he had the whole fleet to fly anytime he wanted.
You will love it.
It's a 57 chevy of jets!!!!

A different scheme for the T-33. I believe it was used by the Japaneese AF during its operational life. The T-33, F-80 rank as some of my Fav jets too.

I appreciate everyone’s comments, but it is still not clear from what I am reading if the modification to the leading edge cusp improves the stall characteristics on landing. I am also curious how changing the LG to the new style affects how it lands. One thing that I may be looking for is a kit that has not been started, and certainly this could involve the LG version. The other item that I would like to hear feedback on is the viability of using the Jetcat 60. I fly off grass 90% of the time, and my 21lb Reaction handles this just fine. As stated, I would like to reuse this engine.

One of my favs too. I saw rich Fong fly and land his many times and he gave credit to a gyro he had installed ailerons and rudder to smooth out landings. I wonder why this T-33 / F-80 series jet has not been arf`d yet.
V..

It really does help with the bounce if you fill in the leading edge cusp. The problem is that with the cusp you have a undercambered center section that is very high lift. The tips are narrow, thin, and semi symetrical with big heavy tip tanks on them. This leads to the center section never wanting to stop flying and the tips stalling very early. You have to come in with a very narrow airspeed range to landing, in my experience it was about a 7-10 knott window. If you came in too fast it would touch down on the mains and that high lift center section + bounce would lead to a big bounce and trouble, if you came in a little too slow she would tip stall as those narrow tips with big tanks would stall (center section still wants to fly) and it would drop a tip and bounce. Either way the result was some nosegear repair. When you got the airspeed and attitude right thoug the landings were a beautiful thing. The P80, both full and model does not have the undercambered center section, plus it has smaller tip tanks. They land MUCH easier.
To fix the problems, fill in the cusp and use crow. Scott

if I remember correctly, there is also a stall strip that is placed along the leading edge at the root section which helps somewhat.

Scott nailed it though, i had the same experience with a pretty narrow approach speed window.

airborne she was a thing of beauty, classic lines for sure. also a P60 and grass field might be asking a bit much unless its a well maintained runway.

good luck

I think you guys have covered most of the landing issues of the T33, removal of inboard droop, stall strips at the root and crow were most beneficial but may I suggest great caution in moving the C of G aft, or it WILL spin too easily. Thew old Robart landing gear struts were disaster too, the new BVM ones vastly improved ground handling. That said the machine flies beautifully.

I have a number of T33 parts which are no longer required and may be of use to someone with a T33. (I was going to upgrade my T33 for the 2nd JWM ran out of time)

They are:

Wing panels, finished with ailerons etc cutout and glassed ready for primer.

Complete flap set, one or two small parts may be missing.

Stab and fin panels, as delivered by BVM.

Two top hatches (may have a spare nose hatch too. )

Pair of mainwheel tyres.

Nosewheel.

Make me an offer I cant refuse !

Regards,

David Gladwin.

Hi David,

Very interested here, have a T 33 fuse with no wings, what is your asking price?

Best regards

Joseph Attard

Flying of grass won't be any big problem, I flew my T-33 as a D/F off our then grass field. We did roll it so it was smooth but the grass was kept about 2" plus high.
One great thing about the T-33 for grass field flying is the wheels are about 3" in dia.
I don't know about the p-60 combo, but any more power than that should give more than enough thrust for any good grass field.
The way the new gear are mounted to the airframe should yield great reliability on landings. I also found that the speed brakes worked very well at keeping the airspeed right on. It allows you to keep just a little power on and smooth out the approach.

HI all, correct me if you feel differently than me, but I feel the recommended CG is a little forward. When I do a roll at 3/4 throttle, I have to seek in some down elevater in the last part of the roll, or the nose will drop.
Rcpete

Thanks for the comments Kelly about your DF experience on the T-33. I have had a couple of BVM kits before on DF, and I am sure that they were no stronger than the P60. At the risk of repeating myself, my Reaction 54 is 21 lbs, and I fly it 90% of the time at several different grass strips. I guess, what I am looking for now is someone who actually has a P60 in their T-33, and can comment on the results off grass. My gut feeling tells me that this should work, but there is nothing like the real thing to confirm this thought.

HI, I have had a Reaction 54 and you should not even think about comparing it the a T33. Unless you are flying off a golf green, a P70 would be tough, I could never get my Ram 500 Bobcat off grass, just too bumpy.
Rcpete
PS, ducted fan jet=12to13lbs
Turbine= 19 to 20 lbs.

I flew my T33 converted to JPX power and it was quite heavy and with only about 12 pounds of thrust. Any of the current 6kiloo engines should be fine off a hard runway, (PST 600, Wren 54, JetCat P60). P70 should be fine off grass but it depend on the grass !!

Strange to hear that a RAM 500 won't fly a BobCat off grass with a RAM 500, mine was, and is NO problem off our short bumpy grass strip with the RAM 500 and is even better with its PST 600.

KK replied to your PM,

Regards,

David Gladwin.

Two questions are how long is your grass strip and how is it maintained?

I know this isn't your original plan, but a P-80 would be perfect in this plane and they are available in good condition used for $1800 or less. The plane would be better off of grass with the P-80, probably have a longer flight time (the P-60 is actually somewhat of a gas guzzler), and you could keep your Reaction for a fun-fly, "warm up" jet. Having something like that around with a lower emotional and monetary investment that you can keep your skills sharp on does make jet flying more fun...

Bob

I think like most have posted, it would work as long as all things are in your favor. Grass is smooth and short, long enough runway (ours was 800ft and only used about 350 to get off) and keep the weight down as much as possible.
If you go to the BVM site and look under the T-33 they talk about flying the P-80 on the P-60 at top gun. The T-33 is listed to fly with 11 to 17 lbs of thrust so this should tell you it will work just be careful to not horse it off the grass.

It should fly fine with a 54 class engine. You will need a longer take off roll. Just make sure to keep it light that plane really has very little wing area. My first one was VERY heavy (about 24 pounds dry) and had a RAM 750 that put out about 16 pounds on a good day. I needed about 500 feet of paved to get off.The perfect engine for that airframe is a WREN SS, light powerful and fuel efficent. The new Merlin 90 would also be a winner combo. I have another one half built (its been sitting for a few years now, but I will get back to it) That I will put one of the 18 pound 54mm engines in. Scott

My T-33 is very nice looking but very hard to control during take off and landing [:'(]. Could be my piloting skill but it flys great.