Hello all

I Wonder what happened to my thread on the King Cat? I was asking some questions about how it looked at Winamac, got some replies then poof?

I would still like to hear how the King Cat flew if anyone else saw it. (just want more details on take off and landing length etc.)

Anyway some of my airline pilot buds were there and saw the King Cat fly and said it was awesome. Bob Violet even had a in-flight emergency with the engine and landed ok, Good plane and some cool Navy nerves were working there.

I had heard that the turbine had some sort of failure infight. I think that shows that even if the Turbines have a problem, they are designed well enough to not cause extreme damage they just kind of grind to a halt and flame a little. Its a bummer that the turbine had a problem, but I think this shows even in the worst case scenario that current turbine design is safe.

Duke,

I have seen the Kingcat fly at three of the four events it has been at now. It flies very well. The takeoffs are on the order of 50-75' and landings are very slow and short as well. The airplane will fly very slow and very fast it is a refinement of the already superb Bobcat design and should be an excellent airframe. It is looks to be capable of any aerobatics that the pilot is capable of throwing at it. The engine was one of the early P-160's and it would only be speculation as to what exactly happened to it. (I talked to Bob Wilcox yesterday and he gave me his theory without having it in his hands and also mentioned that issue has been resolved in the latest engines) A fire started when it came to a sudden stop and BV landed the airplane without incident, the fire was put out quickly with no damage to the airplane.

David Reid

Just thought I would add that the King Cat was back in the air on Sunday at Winamac with a p-120 installed, and flying very well with the 120. Lots of performance.

Regards,
David

China, Eastern Europe, South America, or the USA. Mike Krizan

huh???

Part of Your question remains un-answered!!

I'm glad I'm not a moderator.






P160 owner

I never even thougt in any way shape or form that bashing was going to start. It would have been informative to know the particulars of an major engine failure in flight and how it affected the powerplant/airframe/flying.
It also might have been that the he uttered the sacred jet engine name in the same breath as the words major failure. Scott

I am sure that anyone interested in the engine failure could call Bob Wilcox after it gets to JetCat and he will tell you about what happened after he looks at it. My P-160 came from the same group of engines and now has 110 flights on it with no problems.

Originally posted by DavidR:
"I am sure that anyone interested in the engine failure could call Bob Wilcox after it gets to JetCat and he will tell you about what happened after he looks at it. My P-160 came from the same group of engines and now has 110 flights on it with no problems."

David,
I am sure it is more entertaining for some to speculate in a public forum than call (or email) the only person who can actually answer the question. I commend Ben for his wisdom as a seasoned moderator for seeing where these threads tend to go, and forcing everone to get factual infomation by closing the thread. I too am sure that Bob Wilcox will be glad to answer any questions concerning the engine after he gets a chance to look at it. Anything else is pure speculation.

Dennis Lott

Disclaimer: David and Dennis are JetCat Reps.

Aero65,Ehab, grbaker, GSR ...etc...

I closed the thread because I did not want to give AMA more things to talk about. We are currently working on some major turbine rule changes and believe you me, posting about turbine fire on the web will not help with our efforts to relax the rules.

Closing the thread does not have anything to do with BVM or JetCat as I do not have any affiliations with either company.

There was another turbine fire that same day with the same type of problem from another turbine manufacturer and a different airframe. If I had left the thread, it would not be too long before somebody would mention it. If "we sensationalize the incidents, we are going to attract unwarranted AMA attention by blowing the incidents out of proportion". Remember Wolfgangs night flight at Superman few years ago? We are still paying for that stunt and it is mentioned every time AMA wants to claim how irresponsible turbine pilots are.

I will keep my eyes on this thread and would not hesitate to close it if we fail to use good judgement on what we post.

Thanks in advance for your cooperation and understanding. Should you have any questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to send a PM to me.


Regards

Ben

Ben,

Good judgement call on your part. Maybe it would shed a little light on how quickly and uneventfull the fire was by adding that the Kingcat was out in front of us at show center and at about 150' of altitude, the engine seized and caught fire. I ran back to my trailer, unlocked it grabbed my fire extinguisher, ran back out to the flightline as the airplane was landing, BV hit the brakes and turned it in toward me. I shot the extinguisher directly into the inlet of the engine and the fire was out, all this took place over the course of about 30 seconds. Fact is there was fire fighting equipment close at hand, as well as people experienced enough to deal with it and react quickly. That in my opinion is worth publishing over the internet.

David Reid

Well, to be perfectly honest, when I first saw the original thead being closed off, I was a bit concerned - because the obvious conclusion to draw was "it looks like a cover up for BV or Jetcat".

So I PM'd Ben and asked him why he had closed the thread. I got an explanation that completely satisfied me that his reasoning was in fact nothing to do with protecting any manufacturer's reputation, but instead was done with the best intentions of trying to protect our ability to fly turbines here in the US.

The thread was left up for a while with an invitation from Ben for anyone who wanted to know why it was closed could PM him for an explanation. Leaving the closed thread up could still cause some problems, and there were no perfect solutions at this point, so after some discussion it was decided to remove the thread and advise the thread starter of the reason for doing so. As I understand it, that explanation was sent to him before he re-started this thread, but unfortunately he didn't choose to read his PMs.

If anyone wants to hear the reason why the thread was closed, you are more than welcome to drop me a PM and I will discuss it with you. I have already done so with a number of people who were originally upset/concerned about the removal, who then responded with understanding that Ben is in fact not covering anything up but instead is just trying to help. A lot of the decisions that mod's have to make are fairly easy; some are less easy; sometimes there is no perfect solution and no matter what you do it will not please everyone. This is one of the latter, and it was a tough call for Ben to make. Still, that's why he gets paid the big bucks.

Last but not least - to assuage any lingering concerns about cover-ups.... I have asked Matt (from Jetcat) to post any information he wants about the failure of this one P160, at his convenience. Think back one week and you will remember Jetcat making a public announcement of a problem with a couple of wiring looms - this is a company that goes out of its way to let you know when they know of a problem, not one that needs us to cover problems up.

Regards,
Gordon

Re-Let's not talk about it because the AMA will hear about it. I bet the AMA already knows about the incident from someone who witnessed it or monitors this forum for the no turbine population of the AMA. What was the big deal, engine problem, land, replace the engine and fly the next day. Just find out the problem, fix it and fly on. Mike Krizan

Dang it Ben .... I've gotta learn to type faster, since you snuck your post in between when I started typing mine and when I hit submit. Now I typed all that stuff in unnecessarily !!

Oh well,can't win 'em all.

Gordon

Ben and Gordon,

Thanks for doing a thankless job, even though it pays such big bucks!!

Dennis Lott

Thanks for the post. I am glad you posted it without knowing that I was posting at the same time. Your post helped to prove that there was no left or right wing conspiracy going on.

FWIW, I have a broad shoulder and should anyone decide to bash my action, or me, it is perfectly ok with me.

Regards

Ben

Mike

To ordinary people like you and I, it is no big deal. Unfortunately, the two words "turbine / fire" are not acceptable in AMA's dictionary and I do not blame them for being overcautious.

My major concern was not about reporting or posting about the fire. I was worried about reporting it in such a way that would "attract unwarranted AMA attention by blowing the incidents out of proportion".

Regards

Ben

I ASSumed the same thing Gordon did. Thanks Ben, for looking out for our best interest. You too, Gordon.

I never saw the original thread...I was just wondering if it was a software problem the thread was lost!

Now that Ben and Gordon explained why, It is in my/our interest as jet heads to work with the moderators to protect this site and our hobby.

>>I closed the thread because I did not want to give AMA more things to talk about. We are currently working on some major turbine rule changes and believe you me, posting about turbine fire on the web will not help with our efforts to relax the rules. <<

The rational to not wave the red cape in front of the AMA bull holds enough water with me to counter any other speculations. Good thing some are more foresighted than I. Scott

Hi guys,

We are not in the "covering up" anything...frankly we are not that smart :-)

As I mentioned to Gordon, we need to get the motor in, and we need some information from Germany. Both are in work. I suspect 24 to 48 hours to digest this.

No worries, just stayed tuned here for all of the details!

BTW did anyone get any video of David Reid moving that fast? Video of these rare events (remember that Sasquatch?) can be valuable!

More to follow, I (and Bob and Manfred and Markus and Horst and Andy and Didi and Tina and.....) assure you,

Even if that were caught on video Matt, I am certain that the Defense Department would have destroyed the footage in the interests of national security and all that, just as is the case in UFO sightings. Some things are best left to the imagination!

Geez Loueez,

One day, let's just ELECT a jet guy to the AMA.......

Amen brother!