Hey Matt:

I'm not sure why you keep misquoting me, but I'll correct you once again.

What I said was (paraphrasing):

That if the bolt he was buying (other than a bvm bolt) was hardened but not the same as the bvm bolt then it was probably ok as I don't know of any other alloy steel that's harder than hardned. (again this is a stated opinion). That got me thinking about hard steel, and stainless came to mind, so I went on to say that a stainless bolt would probably hold up better and cost about .80 a bolt. That’s speculation. The speculative part was the cost of the bolt, and whether or not it would hold up better. However:

It's very unlikely that a hardned steel Starter Wand tip will grind out the inside of a stainless steel bolt in the viojett application you speak of.

Tough Crowd.

Sean

So you think a stainless bolt is particularly harder than any other bolt?

What are you basing this on?

Have you ever even started a Viojett?

Actually, I decided to look it up. Turns out that Hardned or Tempered steel can be just as strong as Stainless Steel. The only difference would be the ability to deter corrosives.

Turns out you can get Tempered Stainless as well. But when I looked up Sheer Strength, they were virtually identical.

Now there were many mild steels that were not the same sheer strength.

So the answer is, in order to compare the two bolts, the only way to know for sure is to find out if the sheer strength of your starter wand tip is better than the sheer strength of your bolt. If that's the case, you got a problem. I guess this would also matter in comparison to the tool you use to install/remove the bolt.

Now you've got a ton more questions, none of which I can answer without know more information such as whose wand whose tool etc. Good Luck on that and let me know what you find out if you decide to pursue it.

Sean

Oh, by the way I bought Mike Kolczyk (sp?) Yak 15 a few months back and it had the Viojett system in it. Since then I have started the engine, but I'm going to put a 12 lb turbine in the airplane over the winter.

If my memory is correct....That Rotor Bolt from BVM is a grade 8 bolt which is VERY hard!!! (Costs more too) The bag of cheap bolts you bought is gonna get you in trouble if they are not hardened properly. Ya see, Mr. BV is no dummy....He sets out with a goal and designs a particular system to work in harmony with each other. The Starting Wand Hex Dog and Rotor Bolt are part of a system---The hex drive on the Starting Wand was DELIBERATELY designed to be SOFTER than the Rotor Bolt. The goal is that the Hex Drive will wear out instead of the Rotor Bolt. BV knows what a ***** it is to try to remove a rounded off Rotor Bolt! It much easier to change out the Hex Drive Dog than having to remove all the crap associated with the removal of the fan unit, etc...So, the next time you think that you've out-smarted "The Old Man"---go back and rethink why something was designed the way it is.

BV sells his wares and offers one stop shopping as a CONVENIENCE. If you have the will to strike out on you own to chase down a less expensive part, (As we all have done at one time or another) more power to ya. Claiming to be "cheated" is erroneous. What has really been demonstrated here is ignorance that has been blown out of proportion

Kevin

Don't waste your breathe, Kevin, these guys have got internet access! They know everything!!

I rounded out one of those bolts....ONCE! I then got in the habit of changing them, as I liked to actually FLY :-)

Maybe BV will charge $18 for the new STAINLESS bolt!!

Matt: I'd think someone who represents/responds to questions related to the most "elite" engine manfacturer would be more helpful rather than rude. I've read a lot of your posts over time and have found you by reputation to be a very respsectable presense in this hobby. Either you're having a bad day, or your true colors are showing, but I find you comments on this thread worthless.

Good Luck with the bolts and I'll get with the others guys on putting a list together of less expensive means common use items. I'm not sure I'll be checking back here, so PM me for my excel file in the next couple of days.

Sean

Okay guys ... let's back off when it comes to having a go at each other and or manufacturers.

If you have a good source of a bolt that is as good as or better than BV's one, then feel free to share that info as I'm sure there are plenty of people that would be happy to save lots of money ... but share that info in a civil manner, since having a go at each other here just isn't called for.

If we can get the thread on topic of suitable bolts etc, without having to take shots at each other then great - have at it. Otherwise you should expect that you're just going to get the thread closed.

Gordon

Hey Gordon, you deleted that guys post, and part of it was important and on topic. They do sell Grade 8 Hardned bolts at Lowes.

While on the topic of JetCat, Bob Wilcox is THE most honest and reputable man in this sector of the hobby !! I have NEVER had a single concern, question, etc where Bob had not gone beyond what could have been expected of him or his company. Would be nice if all manufacturers/distributors/resellers had the same business and customer service ethics as Mr Wilcox !



Wojtek

Wojtek,

WOW!!! For starters....I'm no BVM "freak" as you put it. I fly what I want to fly---period. What BV charges is his business. If you don't like it then go somewhere else. (You do have that option, ya know)

I have known BV for several years and with age I believe his demeanor has softened. If you don't like his demeanor then don't associate with him!!! He is a very intense person with a PASSION for this hobby. It's obvious that you don't KNOW Bob.

Lastly, I have NEVER known Bob to turn his back on anyone that truly needed it, including helping modelers with other brands of jets. Frankly, I'm going to call you on this one and ask you to prove yourself. If you can't (or won't) it just shows your integrity. This is a blatant attack---Put up or shut up.

By-the-way....The last time I checked, you CAN'T buy the rotor bolt at these hardware stores as the rotor bolt is of a fine thread.

Kevin

I'm not sure what the deal is on the BV thing. It's been discussed several different places. But in the Jet forum, it seems that if you have a complaint, the pawns jump up and defend. In the case where someone posted that he Saw BV crash a plane...same crew jumps up to defend. Turned out the crash was not accurate according to an inside BV source (which I believe).

But if you blast the manufacturer, it's either deleted or you are told that this is not the forum to blast the manufacturer.

It blew me away that Eddie Weeks predicted the closing of the King Cat thread. He outright said something to the effect of the moderators, or higher ups would cover up the deal.

Like 1/2 an hour later it was closed.

It's almost as if there is an agreement that we're not aware of.

In case this post gets deleted, I'm saving it to my website and I'll just link to it.

Sean

fact is that even though his prices are high, I have bought his products, my problem is beyond his demeanor, it a lack of responsibility and acountability which is my biggest issue. There are regulations and guidelines in conducting business, be it RC or whatever. When someone steps outside the bounds of the law and good old honest business ethics in dealing with a customer, then I have MAJOR some issues ....

Im asuming this post will also be removed, so i dont know why im bothering writing .... Fact is, i will not in a public forum discuss SPECIFIC issues, problems etc that I have had in regards to "the old man" . I would be more than willing however to share my experiences with anyone who inquires in a more private, non public fashion (unless the moderator does not object otherwise)


I have lost over $20,000 in this hobby in the past 3 or so years, between rip off deals, lack of acountability, etc, i am just about fed up and ready to quit.


Wojtek

C'mon Sean---If you have a legitimate problem with a manufacturer, these posts do not get deleted from what I've seen. The post that was deleted was a personal attack and lacked credibility.

All this conspiracy stuff makes me laugh...The King Cat thread was full of hearsay, erroneous information, and rumors.

As far as why people back BV----If you were in this hobby for any length of time it would be obvious. Plain and simple---BV (and a few others) have come together to make this hobby what it is today. Those of us that have been doing this "jet thing" for a long time realize this. I'm not going to waste any more of my time on this. It is not my intention to try to change anyones mind concerning BV.

Kevin

...and if he wants to re-post that part without the invective then he may do so.

Gordon

hey Kevin,

you want me to get specific ? I can get very specific ! specific and factual ! no, opinions, or personal atacks just straight FACT !

BV make the hobby what it is >> I guess Ferrarri made the acr market what it is now to ? right ?? but when i do go out and buy a ferarri, I expect it to be in perfect running condition !!

should I start getting specific ? and believe me, if anything i write is not factual or truthful, then i can be held legally liable .

just let me know, and i will get specific !! (if moderators prefer, i will open a dedicated topic for this, I don't want to intrude on the bolt discussion any further


Wojtek

There are no forums on RCU where "blasting a manufacturer" (or anyone else for that matter) is permitted.

If you have a complaint with someone and can elucidate it factually and calmly, then go for it... but if you choose to blast someone (regardless of who it is) then expect that your post will be removed, and that repeated infractions will carry a further penalty.

Gordon

blasting someone is when you present false information. That is not the case here. I guess none of us should read consumer reports, or any other product/service reviews, oh no, we might hear somehting bad about a manufacturer.

If information is to be censored, then this forum should openly state it operates in a Communist fashion ! This forum is far from being open and honest, just like most of this hobby ....


Wojtek

Sean, a better measure of the bolt's strength for the purposes of this discussion would be bearing strength, not shear strength. Any idea what grade the $.19 bolts that the guy bought were?

I have never owned any JetCat products (except two filters) but I can vouch for Mr. Wilcox too. He is definitely an honest dude.

OK, I'll bite....You expect your Ferarri to be in perfect running condition----Now here is the REAL world....Ferarri's do break, as well as other expensive cars. I think that you have unachievable expectations from things that have a high price tag. The very high performance nature of this facet of the hobby subjects itself to the limits of design(s). (By-the-way, Ferarri did not make cars what they are today---Henry Ford did. Henry's inovations, engineering, and marketing get the credit. Same with BV)

As far as prices go, let me put it to you this way....You are at a high priced department store and you need a pair of Levi's. The price on the Levi's is $49.99/pair. You know that another place has them for $29.99/pair. You have a choice---get the Levi's there (convenience) or get in your car and drive across town to the other store. (inconvenient but saves money) The choice is yours. No need to ***** about it.

Kevin

[quote]
OK, I'll bite....You expect your Ferarri to be in perfect running condition----Now here is the REAL world....Ferarri's do break, as well as other expensive cars. I think that you have unachievable expectations from things that have a high price tag. The very high performance nature of this facet of the hobby subjects itself to the limits of design(s). (By-the-way, Ferarri did not make cars what they are today---Henry Ford did. Henry's inovations, engineering, and marketing get the credit. Same with BV)

As far as prices go, let me put it to you this way....You are at a high priced department store and you need a pair of Levi's. The price on the Levi's is $49.99/pair. You know that another place has them for $29.99/pair. You have a choice---get the Levi's there (convenience) or get in your car and drive across town to the other store. (inconvenient but saves money) The choice is yours. No need to ***** about it.

Kevin
[quote]


Kevin,

if my ferari gets delivered with a siezed engine and a nasty scratch on the hood, i will raise hell and will want a new ferari or my $ back, im sure you agree ..

As goes for henry ford, in this case its OS and great planes that made the hobby what it is, not BVM.

Fact is i spend ridiculous sums of $ on this hobby, I have spent enough on RC to be driving a Ferarri instead of a TT, if it had not gone towards RC. Fact is I am out for the high priced items.

On a positive note, here is how a honest reputable person does business: Bob Wilcox !! I own 6 Jetcat turbines (3 are helis), and will NEVER buy no one elses turbines, no matter how cheap ! why ? because Wilcox delivers good customer service, and accepts acountability where its his, here is one of my experiences with Jetcat:

I had purchased one of the first PH3t (HP5) helicopter turbine mechanics through one of Jetcat's dealers (Vario USA) 2 nd flight in, the helicopter falls out of the sky, and gets smashed to bits. Turns up a $7 belt had ripped. Bob Wilcox at his cost replaced the $6000 helicopter !!!! and the belt issue was resolved by using a diferent belt, and diverent bearing blocks.

as goes for the jeans comparison. I had a pair of $150 Hugo Boss jeans, and while out and about, i leaned over and the seam ripped down my a** (quite embarasing). Macys gave me a new pair of jeans when i took the bad ones back ..... so there ...

As for me *****ing about hte high prices, well, i was one to defend them a while back myself, hey, i bought the guys stuff myself. But when customer respect and supprt does not back the $$, then i bit*&


Wojtek

im leaving this topic alone, i made my points, no reason in arguing further ... (unless BVM personally wants to join the conversation )

Hey guys....I got Nuts if anyone needs them, they might be stained a bit though

And this is a hobby...... !

Unbelieveable!

This is rather rapidly getting out of hand, gentlemen. I'd like to suggest that you all focus on something constructive. There's plenty of information left to be shared in this thread. It's unfortunate that this has become a debate about personal feelings towards various manufacturers and business practices.

For one thing, I'd like to learn how to read the hardness coding on bolt heads. If I recall it has something to do with small lines, but I'm really quite ignorant about that. Perhaps someone would be willing to help me out with that?

As for the idea of manufacturer bias... I'm not a jet guy. I don't use the products, I don't patronize the companies, and I don't have an particular opinions on any of the companies. In other words, I'm neutral and unbiased. I see no bias here. What I do see is an individual who's mixing his information with bashing, which is why his posts were removed. Please keep your posts civil, respectful of one another, and focused on the topic.

Todd,


Amen......

ok, I lied, im still on this thread , back to the original topic though .....


anyone know where to buy AN standard hardware such as bolts nuts, as well as other aircraft grade materials ?? like sheet aluminum, rivets , etc ?


Wojtek