ZNLine Supreme building questions
03-09-2004 | 02:01 AM
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ZNLine Supreme building questions
I received a ZNLine Supreme kit last week. I would be grateful if anybody could answer some of these questions:
1. Where should the CG be located?
2. I would like to mount one servo in each stab half. Set up this way, will the plane balance near the CG with a YS DZ140 and hyde mount, or will it be tail heavy?
3. The stab has a balsa block insert in each stab half, with a hole that is cut to fit a gator rc phenolic tube socket. I want to use a PBG carbon fiber tube and socket, but the socket is about 1.5 mm less diameter than the hole in the stab halves. Any ideas how to build up the PBG carbon socket to fit the hole, without adding much weight? I was thinking about a wrap of light fiberglass cloth, and epoxying that in place.
4. What are the two round balsa plugs to be used for? They are about 3/8 inch thick by 3/4 inch diameter.
5. There is a short piece of carbon fiber socket that fits the wing tube, that must be intended to support the wing tube in the fuselage. But the fuselage already has the tube socket supports molded into the fuse. I don't understand how or whether this short piece of carbon fiber tube socket is to be used. Anybody know?
BTW, the kit is beautiful. The fuselage is the best I have seen. It's hard to imagine how to improve the quality of these kits, but they keep getting better. The seam is absolutely level and perfect on the top and bottom. There is about 1/10th of a millimeter of flashing along the seam to sand down. There are absolutely no chips or bubbles along any of the sharp edges. There are no voids between the cloth and primer gel coat. It's almost ready to paint as is.
1. Where should the CG be located?
2. I would like to mount one servo in each stab half. Set up this way, will the plane balance near the CG with a YS DZ140 and hyde mount, or will it be tail heavy?
3. The stab has a balsa block insert in each stab half, with a hole that is cut to fit a gator rc phenolic tube socket. I want to use a PBG carbon fiber tube and socket, but the socket is about 1.5 mm less diameter than the hole in the stab halves. Any ideas how to build up the PBG carbon socket to fit the hole, without adding much weight? I was thinking about a wrap of light fiberglass cloth, and epoxying that in place.
4. What are the two round balsa plugs to be used for? They are about 3/8 inch thick by 3/4 inch diameter.
5. There is a short piece of carbon fiber socket that fits the wing tube, that must be intended to support the wing tube in the fuselage. But the fuselage already has the tube socket supports molded into the fuse. I don't understand how or whether this short piece of carbon fiber tube socket is to be used. Anybody know?
BTW, the kit is beautiful. The fuselage is the best I have seen. It's hard to imagine how to improve the quality of these kits, but they keep getting better. The seam is absolutely level and perfect on the top and bottom. There is about 1/10th of a millimeter of flashing along the seam to sand down. There are absolutely no chips or bubbles along any of the sharp edges. There are no voids between the cloth and primer gel coat. It's almost ready to paint as is.
03-09-2004 | 02:32 AM
#2
Senior Member
RE: ZNLine Supreme building questions
David,
#1 Have an email into Marco but its going to end up on the tube....I'm not exactly sure where he has his....but I'll pass it along when I get it.
#2 Not sure...I'm going with one servo up front.
#3 I'm using the gator phenolic sockets with PBG tubes
#4 Plugs are for the end of the wing tube sockets...So that glue doesn't get down inside the socket when you glue it in place. There is a sub rib installed in the wing...make sure your sockets go through the rib...I used a section of small music wire to locate the depth of the rib.
#6 The center socket section gets installed in the fuse. As the kit comes the socket is located in the fuse...but it doesn't go all the way across. This short span of socket acts as a former in this location. Installed it and use a couple small strips of glass cloth to attache it to the 1" stubs that are inside the fuse.....Be careful not to glue the wing tube in the fuse....I haven't done it yet but that is the idea.
This is a very new kit for the ZN guys....I'm going to doing a write up on my model to aid others in building it.
Right now I'm in the process of a possible move so it might be a couple of weeks before the model gets started...but when I start I hope to have it flying within a few weeks.
I'll pass along the details as I get them from Marco. To my knowledge there are not many of these models out there. I know my kits are #14 and #18
Troy Newman
Team JR, ZN Line
#1 Have an email into Marco but its going to end up on the tube....I'm not exactly sure where he has his....but I'll pass it along when I get it.
#2 Not sure...I'm going with one servo up front.
#3 I'm using the gator phenolic sockets with PBG tubes
#4 Plugs are for the end of the wing tube sockets...So that glue doesn't get down inside the socket when you glue it in place. There is a sub rib installed in the wing...make sure your sockets go through the rib...I used a section of small music wire to locate the depth of the rib.
#6 The center socket section gets installed in the fuse. As the kit comes the socket is located in the fuse...but it doesn't go all the way across. This short span of socket acts as a former in this location. Installed it and use a couple small strips of glass cloth to attache it to the 1" stubs that are inside the fuse.....Be careful not to glue the wing tube in the fuse....I haven't done it yet but that is the idea.
This is a very new kit for the ZN guys....I'm going to doing a write up on my model to aid others in building it.
Right now I'm in the process of a possible move so it might be a couple of weeks before the model gets started...but when I start I hope to have it flying within a few weeks.
I'll pass along the details as I get them from Marco. To my knowledge there are not many of these models out there. I know my kits are #14 and #18
Troy Newman
Team JR, ZN Line
03-09-2004 | 09:11 AM
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RE: ZNLine Supreme building questions
ORIGINAL: dflynt
I received a ZNLine Supreme kit last week. I would be grateful if anybody could answer some of these questions:
1. Where should the CG be located?
I'll have the best answer soon. Marco will probably give Troy the best answer though.
2. I would like to mount one servo in each stab half. Set up this way, will the plane balance near the CG with a YS DZ140 and hyde mount, or will it be tail heavy?
Current experience says that this will be tail heavy. Tray mounted servo(s) are the way to go. Keep the tail light.
3. The stab has a balsa block insert in each stab half, with a hole that is cut to fit a gator rc phenolic tube socket. I want to use a PBG carbon fiber tube and socket, but the socket is about 1.5 mm less diameter than the hole in the stab halves. Any ideas how to build up the PBG carbon socket to fit the hole, without adding much weight? I was thinking about a wrap of light fiberglass cloth, and epoxying that in place.
Jig your tube set-up so that the tube will be horizontal to the table at the proper height so that when the stabs are in their saddles flat on the table the tube centers in the holes. Using a thick epoxy/microballoon mixture, fill your holes and slide the stabs onto the tube. Use a ruler along the elevator cut-out to ensure the stabs are straight in line. Let it dry and remove from the jig. ENSURE TO WAX THE TUBE. Please look for the thread in this forum entitled ZNLine Factory; Enigma Building for photos and further descriptions on the stab socket installation. I think the photos of the jig and descriptions will give good information there. I prefer the sockets to have a little play and use a jig to mount them for really nicely aligned pieces after all is glued up.
4. What are the two round balsa plugs to be used for? They are about 3/8 inch thick by 3/4 inch diameter.
Those are end caps for the wing tube sockets.
5. There is a short piece of carbon fiber socket that fits the wing tube, that must be intended to support the wing tube in the fuselage. But the fuselage already has the tube socket supports molded into the fuse. I don't understand how or whether this short piece of carbon fiber tube socket is to be used. Anybody know?
Cut that piece so it fits nicely between the molded in sockets. Slide the wing tube through (wax the wing tube). When your wings are properly set against the fuselage and you are happy with the wing-root/fuselage mating, wrap a piece of light-weight glass (about 1" wide by 4" long) a couple of wraps around each socket/socket joint and impregnate with epoxy. You shoud have your incidence set and wing attachments done so that when you glue in the socket all stays perfectly in place.
BTW, the kit is beautiful. The fuselage is the best I have seen. It's hard to imagine how to improve the quality of these kits, but they keep getting better. The seam is absolutely level and perfect on the top and bottom. There is about 1/10th of a millimeter of flashing along the seam to sand down. There are absolutely no chips or bubbles along any of the sharp edges. There are no voids between the cloth and primer gel coat. It's almost ready to paint as is.
I received a ZNLine Supreme kit last week. I would be grateful if anybody could answer some of these questions:
1. Where should the CG be located?
I'll have the best answer soon. Marco will probably give Troy the best answer though.
2. I would like to mount one servo in each stab half. Set up this way, will the plane balance near the CG with a YS DZ140 and hyde mount, or will it be tail heavy?
Current experience says that this will be tail heavy. Tray mounted servo(s) are the way to go. Keep the tail light.
3. The stab has a balsa block insert in each stab half, with a hole that is cut to fit a gator rc phenolic tube socket. I want to use a PBG carbon fiber tube and socket, but the socket is about 1.5 mm less diameter than the hole in the stab halves. Any ideas how to build up the PBG carbon socket to fit the hole, without adding much weight? I was thinking about a wrap of light fiberglass cloth, and epoxying that in place.
Jig your tube set-up so that the tube will be horizontal to the table at the proper height so that when the stabs are in their saddles flat on the table the tube centers in the holes. Using a thick epoxy/microballoon mixture, fill your holes and slide the stabs onto the tube. Use a ruler along the elevator cut-out to ensure the stabs are straight in line. Let it dry and remove from the jig. ENSURE TO WAX THE TUBE. Please look for the thread in this forum entitled ZNLine Factory; Enigma Building for photos and further descriptions on the stab socket installation. I think the photos of the jig and descriptions will give good information there. I prefer the sockets to have a little play and use a jig to mount them for really nicely aligned pieces after all is glued up.
4. What are the two round balsa plugs to be used for? They are about 3/8 inch thick by 3/4 inch diameter.
Those are end caps for the wing tube sockets.
5. There is a short piece of carbon fiber socket that fits the wing tube, that must be intended to support the wing tube in the fuselage. But the fuselage already has the tube socket supports molded into the fuse. I don't understand how or whether this short piece of carbon fiber tube socket is to be used. Anybody know?
Cut that piece so it fits nicely between the molded in sockets. Slide the wing tube through (wax the wing tube). When your wings are properly set against the fuselage and you are happy with the wing-root/fuselage mating, wrap a piece of light-weight glass (about 1" wide by 4" long) a couple of wraps around each socket/socket joint and impregnate with epoxy. You shoud have your incidence set and wing attachments done so that when you glue in the socket all stays perfectly in place.
BTW, the kit is beautiful. The fuselage is the best I have seen. It's hard to imagine how to improve the quality of these kits, but they keep getting better. The seam is absolutely level and perfect on the top and bottom. There is about 1/10th of a millimeter of flashing along the seam to sand down. There are absolutely no chips or bubbles along any of the sharp edges. There are no voids between the cloth and primer gel coat. It's almost ready to paint as is.
I hope this helps. Feel free to write if you need more detail.
Regards,
Mark
03-09-2004 | 09:17 AM
#4
Senior Member
My Feedback: (3)
RE: ZNLine Supreme building questions
Other than the plug in wings which we have not yet written about in detail, referencing the Enigma building thread can give you many many good details for all other areas of building the Supreme. Control surfaces, stab mounting, most fuselage work, all use the same techniques.
The link is:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_53.../tm.htm#534573
It is long but lots of photos and detailed descriptions. I finally edited the entire article removing as much chat and banter as I could and made a 75 page manual on CD with photos available through ZNLine.
Regards again,
Mark
The link is:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_53.../tm.htm#534573
It is long but lots of photos and detailed descriptions. I finally edited the entire article removing as much chat and banter as I could and made a 75 page manual on CD with photos available through ZNLine.
Regards again,
Mark
03-09-2004 | 01:14 PM
#8
Senior Member
RE: ZNLine Supreme building questions
Opinions will vary.....
I don't feel the 368 is the best choice in this application. Not coreless, small footprint, smaller gears.
I have used the 368's with great success in other applications but I feel that dual elevators on a pattern model is not that best application.
I'm not a fan of dual servos back there...but the 3421SA or the 9411SA are the best choices for this application in my opinion. I would stay with the 9411SA if I could the difference in weight is only 0.25oz per servo for the 9411SA to the 3421SA. The larger footprint of the 9411SA and the larger gear train in my opinion are going to have benefits in the wear and tear category.
I also can say that the 9411SA is the absolute best pattern servo I have ever run in terms of wear, performance, precision, and speed. I would think these features would make good elevator servos as well.
I just don't like having dual servos....I guess I'm just to critical of my equipment these days. I find it tougher to maintain the dual servos in a matched environment. I can do it....and have done it. I just feel airplane maintenance goes up, and the plane doesn't stay as dialed in as long...Pot wear causes changes in the end points of all servos...We always associate centering issues with pot life. But the end points will float too. This is not a good thing when your are trying to pull or push straight corners. A single servo while its pot can wear too will not give differential throws to the elevators...So the centering is really the main issue with pot wear and not the other things induced.
On Ailerons when you have dual servo issues on the end points changing the result is not as critical as the resulting in a change is the aileron differential settings....So the rolls are not going to be as Axial....but our planes today are very forgiving in this area.....And since the changes are small you rarely see them. Centering of the aileron servos is much more critical and this is where pots show their wear.
On elevators the changes are more pronounced as both surfaces are trying to move in sync and same direction....
In the last year or so I have become much more critical of loop tracking. I feel in my flying this is one of the most critical things to helping me fly better. Worn pots on aileron servos is bad enough on the loop tracking but now inducing another variant.....Not the best solution for me.
Again my opinion and others may vary.
Troy Newman
I don't feel the 368 is the best choice in this application. Not coreless, small footprint, smaller gears.
I have used the 368's with great success in other applications but I feel that dual elevators on a pattern model is not that best application.
I'm not a fan of dual servos back there...but the 3421SA or the 9411SA are the best choices for this application in my opinion. I would stay with the 9411SA if I could the difference in weight is only 0.25oz per servo for the 9411SA to the 3421SA. The larger footprint of the 9411SA and the larger gear train in my opinion are going to have benefits in the wear and tear category.
I also can say that the 9411SA is the absolute best pattern servo I have ever run in terms of wear, performance, precision, and speed. I would think these features would make good elevator servos as well.
I just don't like having dual servos....I guess I'm just to critical of my equipment these days. I find it tougher to maintain the dual servos in a matched environment. I can do it....and have done it. I just feel airplane maintenance goes up, and the plane doesn't stay as dialed in as long...Pot wear causes changes in the end points of all servos...We always associate centering issues with pot life. But the end points will float too. This is not a good thing when your are trying to pull or push straight corners. A single servo while its pot can wear too will not give differential throws to the elevators...So the centering is really the main issue with pot wear and not the other things induced.
On Ailerons when you have dual servo issues on the end points changing the result is not as critical as the resulting in a change is the aileron differential settings....So the rolls are not going to be as Axial....but our planes today are very forgiving in this area.....And since the changes are small you rarely see them. Centering of the aileron servos is much more critical and this is where pots show their wear.
On elevators the changes are more pronounced as both surfaces are trying to move in sync and same direction....
In the last year or so I have become much more critical of loop tracking. I feel in my flying this is one of the most critical things to helping me fly better. Worn pots on aileron servos is bad enough on the loop tracking but now inducing another variant.....Not the best solution for me.
Again my opinion and others may vary.
Troy Newman
03-09-2004 | 02:09 PM
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From: Rosamond, CA
RE: ZNLine Supreme building questions
Or, you could go electric, get rid of the vibration, and use dual elevator servos. That is how my Partner is rigged.
I used dual servos for years in the Typhoons and 202, but with glow they were a pain. I do have to agree that a 368 may not be as good a choice as a 3421 or 9411. The Partner has 9411's and it is great. The 368's may work, but Doug has yet to finish and fly the Supreme.
From a total weight comparison the duals and a single with pushrods are about the same. Duals do however put the weight in the rear.
I used dual servos for years in the Typhoons and 202, but with glow they were a pain. I do have to agree that a 368 may not be as good a choice as a 3421 or 9411. The Partner has 9411's and it is great. The 368's may work, but Doug has yet to finish and fly the Supreme.
From a total weight comparison the duals and a single with pushrods are about the same. Duals do however put the weight in the rear.
03-09-2004 | 06:50 PM
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From: littleplaceintheboonies,
ON, CANADA
RE: ZNLine Supreme building questions
I'm looking at getting the Supreme kit. How did you get it to the states from france?.What was the overall cost with shipping in US$. There are alot of different opinions on this in Canada and the US - I was wondering what the actual story is? Could use your help.
Anyone else with experience in getting these kits to North America????? (without too much trouble)
Anyone else with experience in getting these kits to North America????? (without too much trouble)
03-09-2004 | 07:35 PM
#11
Senior Member
RE: ZNLine Supreme building questions
Central Hobbies imports them.
They are complete with the CF nomex parts and all the CF former components.
Price is $1198 USD from Central
By the way the ZN price on the website is 965 Euro and this is $1198 USD...SO Central is getting a good deal on the models and passing it along to us.....The shipping I have looked into approaches $300-400 USD from France to the USA.
Shipping to me was $88 per kit from Montana to Phx, AZ. Airborne Express.
I know Central has some kits available from this latest shipment. I think they have a Supreme, Hydeaway, and a Synergy and a Synergy 90 3D.
These are the best kits on the market. Just a rough idea for all you guys than want to know the difference. The fuse, long belly pan (41" to use the right 2 stroke pipe), Canopy frame all combined on this very large model is only 26ozs. This is lighter than other kits on the market even those that are the TAVS or CF construction on smaller models from domestic US sources.
The servo tray included was an option on earlier kits and still an option direct from ZN...they are around $85 option but come with the Central Kits standard. I just weighed the tray....25g It holds the tank, elev, rudder servos, battery pack and RX...
Oh another thing on the Supreme the wing tube is already installed in the fuse. As stated about alignment is already done on this important part of the model. Not sure on the Hydeaway. All the wood is included and the other wood-CF parts are supplied. CF wing tube with FG sockets. By the way all the balsa is super light stuff and perfect for use. Nothing needs to be replaced in the kit.
I have built many ZN kits in the past (My Supremes will be 6 and 7). I even flew my Hydeaway to 3rd place at the 2003 US NATS in F3A right behind Chip Hyde and Don Sczur.
In the past year I have built several models, Temptation, CA models Eclipse, PL Prod Flashdance, and a Phenom.
These kits all had good qualities but the ZN kits stand head and shoulders above them in both engineering and quality of the kit.
The comment has been made you get what you pay for...and the ZN models are all the absolute best in quality and flight performance I have found. They make building the model so much easier and more fun. And I have yet to find one of the ZN kits that had poor flight qualities.
Troy Newman
Team JR
They are complete with the CF nomex parts and all the CF former components.
Price is $1198 USD from Central
By the way the ZN price on the website is 965 Euro and this is $1198 USD...SO Central is getting a good deal on the models and passing it along to us.....The shipping I have looked into approaches $300-400 USD from France to the USA.
Shipping to me was $88 per kit from Montana to Phx, AZ. Airborne Express.
I know Central has some kits available from this latest shipment. I think they have a Supreme, Hydeaway, and a Synergy and a Synergy 90 3D.
These are the best kits on the market. Just a rough idea for all you guys than want to know the difference. The fuse, long belly pan (41" to use the right 2 stroke pipe), Canopy frame all combined on this very large model is only 26ozs. This is lighter than other kits on the market even those that are the TAVS or CF construction on smaller models from domestic US sources.
The servo tray included was an option on earlier kits and still an option direct from ZN...they are around $85 option but come with the Central Kits standard. I just weighed the tray....25g It holds the tank, elev, rudder servos, battery pack and RX...
Oh another thing on the Supreme the wing tube is already installed in the fuse. As stated about alignment is already done on this important part of the model. Not sure on the Hydeaway. All the wood is included and the other wood-CF parts are supplied. CF wing tube with FG sockets. By the way all the balsa is super light stuff and perfect for use. Nothing needs to be replaced in the kit.
I have built many ZN kits in the past (My Supremes will be 6 and 7). I even flew my Hydeaway to 3rd place at the 2003 US NATS in F3A right behind Chip Hyde and Don Sczur.
In the past year I have built several models, Temptation, CA models Eclipse, PL Prod Flashdance, and a Phenom.
These kits all had good qualities but the ZN kits stand head and shoulders above them in both engineering and quality of the kit.
The comment has been made you get what you pay for...and the ZN models are all the absolute best in quality and flight performance I have found. They make building the model so much easier and more fun. And I have yet to find one of the ZN kits that had poor flight qualities.
Troy Newman
Team JR
03-09-2004 | 08:42 PM
#12
My Feedback: (1)
RE: ZNLine Supreme building questions
ORIGINAL: nothing
I'm looking at getting the Supreme kit. How did you get it to the states from france?.What was the overall cost with shipping in US$. There are alot of different opinions on this in Canada and the US - I was wondering what the actual story is? Could use your help.
Anyone else with experience in getting these kits to North America????? (without too much trouble)
I'm looking at getting the Supreme kit. How did you get it to the states from france?.What was the overall cost with shipping in US$. There are alot of different opinions on this in Canada and the US - I was wondering what the actual story is? Could use your help.
Anyone else with experience in getting these kits to North America????? (without too much trouble)
Nothing
We have brought over 20 kits into Canada direct from ZN in France with not one kit damaged or hassles importing (in fact they get here faster and with less problems than getting anything from the US). We have brought in Evolis, Enigma's, Synergies, and Supreme's in fact there is a new set of wings for myself and a Supreme for a friend on their way now
They will turn around a single kit order in about 3 weeks.Contact me offline and I will give you more details.
[email protected]
03-09-2004 | 11:13 PM
#13
My Feedback: (34)
RE: ZNLine Supreme building questions
ORIGINAL: TonyF
Or, you could go electric, get rid of the vibration, and use dual elevator servos. That is how my Partner is rigged.
I used dual servos for years in the Typhoons and 202, but with glow they were a pain. I do have to agree that a 368 may not be as good a choice as a 3421 or 9411. The Partner has 9411's and it is great. The 368's may work, but Doug has yet to finish and fly the Supreme.
From a total weight comparison the duals and a single with pushrods are about the same. Duals do however put the weight in the rear.
Or, you could go electric, get rid of the vibration, and use dual elevator servos. That is how my Partner is rigged.
I used dual servos for years in the Typhoons and 202, but with glow they were a pain. I do have to agree that a 368 may not be as good a choice as a 3421 or 9411. The Partner has 9411's and it is great. The 368's may work, but Doug has yet to finish and fly the Supreme.
From a total weight comparison the duals and a single with pushrods are about the same. Duals do however put the weight in the rear.
03-09-2004 | 11:20 PM
#14
Senior Member
RE: ZNLine Supreme building questions
I think the electric can help the CG situation a bit....The huge 3.5lbs goes so close to CG that you can just move it a bit forward or back to get the perfect CG.
I think this is a cool setup. On Tony's Partner there was a bunch of room to manuever the batts around if you wanted to.
I have been re-considering the 3421's or 9411's in the stabs..and I still think the 0.070" CF rods are the best setup for me.
I use an 8417 on the elevator. its fast speed and power are great for the snaps...Helps the breaks as the elevator moves quickly to get the wing to stall.
TN
I think this is a cool setup. On Tony's Partner there was a bunch of room to manuever the batts around if you wanted to.
I have been re-considering the 3421's or 9411's in the stabs..and I still think the 0.070" CF rods are the best setup for me.
I use an 8417 on the elevator. its fast speed and power are great for the snaps...Helps the breaks as the elevator moves quickly to get the wing to stall.
TN
