Free lunch no, but the rules force everyone to eat caviar (glow fuel). Pattern doesn't have to equate to IMAC, the difference would still be scale aerobats for IMAC, and anyone's design for pattern. ZDZ now makes a 40cc gas engine (with pumped carb) and reed valves for $340. About 4+ HP. We wouldn't need a $500-700 motor that burns $20/gallon heli fuel. Gas/petrol costs about $1.40/gallon on this side of the pond. The current weight limit and size limit results in nearly everyone using glow fueled YS or OS 1.40 motors. Raise the weight limit to 13 lbs, allow about 83x83", and pattern would be MUCH more affordable.

I can fit my pattern model into my Neon just as it is, raise the size limits and I need to buy a new vehicle, that makes pattern much less affordable.

Every time the weight and size limits get bumped up to try to make it cheaper (which it wont) and more accesible (which it wont) its only a short hop to bump it up to the next level. In a short period of time we will fly 100" 25 lbs limit GS models.

Like I said if you want larger planes join IMAC.

Want to make pattern more affordable and accesible, reduce size and weight limits not increase them. A 60 size model is a hell of a lot cheaper than a 40 CC gasser, or a 2 meter pattern plane.

Agreed!

Chad, I almost agree with *most* of your position, except the part about size standards.

Without a MAJOR revamp of judging criteria, and rules about sequences, smaller WON'T *EVER* compare on par with the 2M pattern jobs.

If they COULD, we'd see LOTS more "smaller airplanes" in Pattern, for a host of reasons.

The game expanded due to F3A rules, period. F3A expanded it, who knows when and why?, but EVERYONE just followed along playing FAI wanna-bee....

It's only SLIGHTLY acceptable that the MAJORITY of Pattern rules right now in the USA have their roots in F3A architecture, since it represents competitively about 1.5% of Pattern fliers.

Anything wrong with that picture, guys??

(This is STILL a GREAT thread.....lots of really diverse perspective and opinion....thanks to RCU for letting this run!!)

Wouldn't that be a neat thing. Pattern planes brought back to a .60 limit.... Ah, the good old days...

Nah, too many folks with deep pockets willing to pay big bucks for high-end equipment. Try to force sizes and costs back down would upset the cottage industries making bucks on it....

Without those $100 digital servos, $800 kits, $800 injected glow motors, $1000 radios, and all that, they'd actually have to fly a straight vertical line with nothing more than their own eyes and thumbs...

That would never do....


Phil in Austin

(Yes, I do have one of those $1000 radios, but none of the other items mentioned...)

I'm just moving from 60 pattern up to "The 2 meter club," and am finding first hand what the differences are. I enjoyed the simplicity of the 60 size ships, with my trusty YS 61 and Kaos, then Escape, then 2 Boxers. These airplanes tended to be relatively inexpensive and easy to build, operate, repair and transport. Weight, even though important, wasn't nearly as crucial as it seems to be with the larger planes.

What I'm finding with the new 2 meter ships is that they are a little heavier, but a lot larger, with a hunger for brute power. With the larger engines on a very light airframe, I'm wondering how they will stand up to the rigors of practice with the ocassional missed landings. Also, only the lightest and strongest (and most costly) materials (composites and laminates) can be used to keep things so light. I think that mishaps will result in complex repairs, which will likely add weight quickly. I believe that it's the pattern schedules themselves which demand the additional power and size, but in upscaling everything to accomodate them, cost and complexity have increased also.

I noticed the two primary reasons for not participating are cost and local support, the former negativley affecting the latter. I wonder if new members, the life's blood of any activity, are being discouraged by the recent changes in equipment needs.

From my own perspective, I'm entering the 2 meter arena with some uncertainty as to whether I want to deal with the larger airplanes - building, transporting, and flying. I didn't get into 1/4 scale when it became popular back in the 80s because of the larger "everything" about them. I still wouldn't chose to go larger if I didn't have to to be competitive.

IMHO

I guess it's time for a new SIG. The Econo-Pattern group.

.60 size max engines, a max wing area (say 800 sq. in.), no weight penalties. No composites besides foam, fiberglass and balsa. Fixed gear or retracts, your choice.

I do agree about a noise limit. We all have to watch that, lest we lose more fields....

Would that do it? Or, would it grow to be the 2-meter monster that the present Pattern has become?

Competition is a wonderul thing most of the time, as it brings creativity and innovation, not to mention building of skills, social interaction, etc. But... Perhaps at times we "over-rule" ourselves right out of the reason(s) we got into it...

I don't know... Just speculating here...

Phil in Austin

I posted the link to a thread that proposed something like that on page 2.

Guys, if you want to fly pattern with .60 sized "economy" planes, that's what the SPA was made for. If there's no local SPA activity, then start it up. It's big here in the Southeast.

To poorbs, I have a 2 meter, wide body typhoon that I scratch built. It's wood. It's also the easiest to maintain of any plane I've had in over 20 years, and it has about 500 flights on it, and quite a few trips into the weeds from when I started out.

And it's 2 meters, it's plenty light, it's made of wood, and is the most reliable plane in my stable. It's also a winner.

Seems like a lot of misconceptions out there.

-Mike

I agree Bob, you cant compare the flying of a 2 meter to a 60 size.

What I am thinking of is if the lower classes were restricted, say to 60s in Sportsman and up to 120s in Intermediate then open it up for Advanced. This way the entry level guy could compete on a pretty good level with the others using probably a plane he already owns. As he progresses through the ranks and gets hooked (and learns more about it) he can move up into the larger models. By the time he reaches Masters he is setup with the latest and greatest, and has probably learned a lot about properly flying and trimming his models.

I can only base my thoughts on what I see at our local events, larger is not the issue, we never have Sportsman guys asking if they can fly their big Cap, just doesnt happen. Most of the time they are out there with their 4*40. I think the thought of "needing" a big model to compete in the next class up is what causes them not to return. If they know they when they move up to Intermediate they will not be competing against a 2 meter model, they are more likely to give it a go.

Unfortunately I am one of the causes of the problems, sitting out at the field with a pair of ZN Line Evolis's and 140 DZ's......and the Sportsman guy asks "what are those worth?".......if I tell him the right answer he is not going to be interested in competing

What to do ??? I dont know, but the local support thing I think has some big merit points. When I moved to Calgary there was essentially no one flying pattern, a year and half later I have 3 or 4 guys in our club that are going to give it a shot next year. The trick? Host a contest locally so they dont have to travel to try it out

I spent the day flying my 2x2 pattern model -equipped with ZDZ40 re-
It is cheaper to operate than any 140 setup-and costs less -
also italso has far more power - no needle valve fussing - a wooden 19x12 prop - it is quiet -
For those who really want a 2x2 mm plane that is easy to do and inexpensive and reliable - try this approach--If you have no idea as to what airframe to use - just copy the new Predator by JR Models - or any similar airframe .
Mine is std foam wings -and a light wooden fuselage - the only carbon fibre is the wing tube.
I have followed this thread from th start - almost all inputs have been on going back to smaller models to reduce costs and quite honestly - it is not necessary - and more to the point - not very attractive to many.
You don't have to believe it - but the quiet planes around here , are the gasoline models - with very few exceptions.

Chad, I realize you have a large investment in the status quo. But, consider my proposal of an 83x83" plane with a 40cc gas motor. Explain to me exactly why you think this plane is more expensive (initial purchase, fuel costs, servos, exhaust etc.) than what you are now flying with a DZ 1.40.

Some day you may even have to buy another car. Perhaps it'll be large enough for a slightly bigger plane. If not, you can still compete with what you are flying now.

It certainly is not any less expensive, I have seen some pretty good setups on a low budget.

In this area bigger is not the answer, the guys we get coming are all flying your average sport 40 size model, opening up the rules wont attract them it will only further the impression that pattern is big high dollar airplanes that they cannot afford.

Personally I fly FAI, which is very unlikely to see a size increase in the near future, as to the car I already bought a new one a 2003 Toyota Matrix XRS - just big enough to fit my 2 meter model in the back, too bad I have to wait 3 more months to get it

As far as the ZDZ 40, you can get both the OS 140 and Webra just as cheap, and your plane will be about a pound lighter with just as much power, or an OS 160 for much cheaper. Plus you wont have to carry two types of fuel (gas and glow) so that you can fly your 40 sport model.

For the rest of the airframe you still have the same costs either way, servos, batteries etc. it is essentially the same plane with a different motor. If we both had the same airframe to work from, I would bet I could do it cheaper using current "pattern" equipment.

If the rules change then they change, I will adjust to accomodate them, but I think in the long run going big will only serve to decrease participation.

Well -having been thru all the biggest and best of th flow engines - there simply is no way the power levels are the same as a big gas engine in the 2x2 mmairframe -
My real "end of the line on glow hit with my ST2300 setups on ignition and 30% nitro -which turned 9300 on 18x8 props -That wa the most power and smoothest running glow setup of any I have seen or tried -but it slurped up 20 oz of fuel per sequence - then there is the rusty bearings -a real problem in some parts of the world - so I went -reluctantlly at first to a slow turning bigger gasoline setup .
A new learning curve -and if you try to adapt a rehashed chainsaw setup into a pattern plane - it can get awkward.
My engine for this has rear intake and exhaust - -is very compact and tuned right - very smooth - all flying is done under 6000 rpm -which drops prop noise - a bunch!
I hardly ever touch the needle valve and tank placement is pretty unlimited.
Frankly -I see this approach as the most viable alternative to current pattern setups.
Having to spring for a engine listed at a grand - then needing expensive fuel and pipe and still not having as much power ?? No thanks.
I am not the only one who feel this way - locacally, you have a hard time selling used expensive pattern engines -

I managed to pick up a used Dr Jeckyll at a swap meet this morning for a reallly good price. It came with all linkage, retracts/retract servo, a new pair of wingpanels, new adjusters, and is in pretty good shape. The wing panels were prototypes for a new composite plane being designed/built by a couple of local guys. It appears to be a bit smaller than a true 2x2, prob closer to 75 in long x 72 in. wingspan. It does have visible evidence of repair (adding 2-3 oz estimated), but it is still a very sharp airplane. It should make one heck of a sport flier/pattern training model, not to mention a really good example of if used pattern is cheap, not cheap, or somewhere in between.

So, with that in mind, I am looking for engine recommendations, trying to stay away from the high $$$ YS. I have to epoxy in the firewall anyway, so I have a pretty clear slate. The os 160 is an option, but I am also open to gas. I know I will be pretty close if not over the 11lb limit, but talking to a CD today at the swap meet, he said that unless you go to a reallllllly large contest (ie, nats, or worlds) they really dont care if youre a lil over on the weight, especially if its a "known" pattern design.

I will try to post a couple pics, but have to install some software on this pc.



Steve

PS: I got this for less than a GP Venus

Here are a couple pics of the latest addition. It needs to have the old pilots name and ama # taken off, but other than that, its sweeeet

All in all, not bad for 2/3 the price of a GP Venus

This is going to be my winter project, hopefully airworthy in Jan/Feb. I have to get my UCD finished and up first, and will be tempted to rush it now

Steve

GOOD FOR YOU STEVE!!!

I am glad to see that you got that. I hope that you enjoy it!!

As for an engine, I would reccomend a 2-stroke or something like a Saito or OS 1.20. You might look into a Webra 1.45, but that might pull that airplane a little fast. You might could try a ST 2300. I am with you about staying away from the YS'. They are quite expensive to feed ($25 per gallon!!) Good luck with it and I look forewrd to seeing that fly!!! I wish I had a digital camera so I could show you my new plane that I picked up last night, a 35% Carden Cap.

Also,

That's kinda funny that you have to glue your firewall in, because mine cracked out in flight about a month ago. :cry:

I recently completed a new design which mirrors the size and moments of my Mirage design that I flew in the Nat's this year, both are all wood. I built the new one to save wear and tear on my Mirage which currently has over 700 flights on it one of which ended in a snap and cartwheel one wing over the other with little damage.
The new design is constructed similar to the Balsanova except with two piece foam and balsa wings. It flyes almost exactly the same as the Mirage except better.
It is about a pound lighter. Cost to scratch build it was less than $200.oo It is 2m x 2m weighs 9lb 7oz ready to fly less fuel and took me three weeks to complete.
I used what I had for equipment. "IT" ain't pretty but who cares
The cost of pattern is what you are willing to spend, you don't need the latest and supposedly the best to compete. What you need is to burn fuel and have fun .
If you fly pattern and plan to be competative then let's see? 700 flights 20oz per flight 6 or 7 flights per gal. Huuum! The fuel cost's as much as the airplane.
Hey Dick What kind of gas engine is that?

Cool Ryan,

Where did ya get the Cap? Is it complete or needing to finish? Are you gonna test fly it at Air Harbor>>>>> I didnt see you at the swap meet this morning, but then again, I spent most of my time lookin at that plane and mulling it over. Talk about an agonizing decision. LOLOL. If I hadnt gotten the UCD last month, I wouldnt have even bothered agonizing LOLOL. Now I have to figure out where to hang two planes, and try to keep at least one of them outta the wife's view

Do you know any of the history of this plane? Youre more into the pattern scene than I am right now. Dean looked at it, and said it wouldnt be a bad plane for the price. And I guess I could value the opinion of a 2 time Nats winner LOL.

I read the post about your firewall, have you repaired it yet? Do you know what caused it to loosen up? I will have to look into the Webra 1.45 as well as the OS 160, but I dont know if I want to go thru a gallon a day at the field. I guess I also need to measure how much prop clearance I have before I go too large on the motor. The previous owner had a ys 120 in it, and sold it only because he moved up to a true 2m composite plane. I also wouldnt mind modifying it for fixed gear, but I'll wait and see how well the retracts work. I'm going to take my time on this one, and get as much feedback as possible before cutting or glueing anything.

I can try to get away tomorrow and take some pics of your cap, if youre going to be around. I'm not sure if I'm going flying in the morning, have a bunch of sick people in the house right now. I think standing out in 40 degree temps at 9am would be safer than sittin in the house...........

I just thought of something...

I don't know much about minImac, but from what I have seen it doesn't seem to be very popular. Which brings me to my earth-shattering thought ( :devious: ): Why doesn't the guy that flys Sportsman in IMAC with a 1/4 scale Sig Extra complain about having to fly against a 40% Extra 330S? I just thought that was kinda odd, I don't think pattern should be any different.

Steve,

I got the Cap from a friend of Warren's who was wanting to get rid of it. It is finished in the Matt Chapman color scheme, but the blue is red on this plane, but no radio or motor. A guy at Air Harbor has a full scale Cap 10B and he got a real kick out of seeing it, I had it over there today.

I think Chip Hyde designed the plane back in the late 80's or early 90's, and that's about all I know about it. If it flys anything like a Hydeout, I think you will be more than pleased with it. That's neat that Dean sold you on that plane, because he did the same with me (only I was planning on buying it regardless of what he said about it LOL).

I have no idea what made it loosen up. My nose ring mount had broken before during flight (due to the stupidity of the owner/operator) so that might have had something to do with it. Also, during the post mordem inspection of the old firewall, it looked like the firewall was glued in with wood glue, (which is highly unlikely that Joey did that, I think it maaaay have been microballoons that yellowed it a little. The plane is almost done, because I was fooling with my $100 some odd dollar Hyde mount an broke one of the beams, which turned out to be relatively cheap Sig beams, thank goodness, that Kirby had to order.

Call me tomorrow on my cell phone (270-1950), and maybe we can work out a little photo shoot with the Cap.

Cool, I think I have seen that guy fly the cap, and I swear he did a perfect roll while cruisin east over Pisgah Church Road one afternoon. I guess he dropped his pen and was too lazy to reach for it, so he rolled over and put it on the canopy . I'll try to give you a call. Try and swing by county line tomorow and see Tom's new disc planes/pbf/xball things. They are an absolute riot to watch, vertical takeoffs/landings, etc. His poor dioblotin xl is collecting dust in his garage while he flies these 5 dollar planes lOLOL I dont think hes taken it out in about 2 months. I'll have to start guilting him on that.

Hope to see ya tomorrow,

Steve

Hey Steve, that Dr Jeckyll looks familiar. I was the original owner/builder of that plane. I built it in 95 right after RC City started selling them. I bet I put at least 500 flights on it before I sold it to my brother. He flew it for 2 years in Sportsman and Intermediate with many wins. It was in bad need of some work when the previous owner acquired it. I can't believe how good it looks now! That plane will fly great with a plain old YS 120 FS or even an AC, which can be picked up pretty cheap nowadays, probably $200 or less. As far as fuel, these motors run fine on 20% fuel, and burn less than an OS 160. No matter what engine you go with, that plane is definately a great beginner for pattern flying.