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Doug,

You didn't happen to see my canopy at Mac's on Sunday after the contest, did you? I looked all over for it while I was packing up and we finally left without it. . . . ;-)
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I'm sure they'll be fine. With all the flying we did, they have a really good idea of what it looks like. I know a couple pilots sat "in the chair" and watched up close and had some questions we answered. It was really informative for all involved. We really would like the Masters guys to feel comfortable judging FAI. I propose that Masters does the peer judging for just a round and see how it turns out. Maybe at the next contest after Nats.

Actually, I asked the FAI competitors what they would prefer to do with judging before the contest started. It was their choice to do peer judging, not an issue of finding Masters, or other pilots to judge.

Emory.

I edited my other post after reading an email from a friend this morning. I personally would prefer for peer-judging to not be used again. You can still hold a clinic and study/critique each others flying while maintaining the normal contest structure. I just don't see peer-judging as the right solution to achieving more accurate maneuver scores.
Jim

Keith,
I sure did not see it.....however, if I had known you were just going to
leave it lying around I would have gotten it for you and kept it in a safe
place til next time....I have some depron, but it is too thick to make the
side sections..Gotta find another piece....Doug

Hey Keith,

I didn't see a canopy when I was cleaning up. If you haven't already, give Mac a call and see if he has found it.

Thanks,
Emory

Hey Jim and Jason,

I think it may be interesting next time our district does a judging seminar, it would be fun/informative to add some flights to that. Maybe spend a whole day doing this and have a mini-contest of Sunday?? My thoughts were that possibly we could all judge a flight in each class and compare notes afterwards. Also, we could talk about the patterns and discuss things to look for, etc...

This sounds to me like what Jim described that IMAC does (correct me if I'm wrong, Jim). I have never done this before, so I don't know how valuable it may be. But, it sounds good to me.

Comments?
Emory

I'm welcome to a seminar that gets us all on the same page. I hate being the only judge that hands out 2's and 3's and then gets harassed about it afterwards for scoring correctly .

We were asked and we did choose peer judging. Of the 7 Masters pilots there, 1 had never seen the sequences, 1 doesn't judge FAI and 1 other would have judged but wouldn't have been very comfortable in the chair. I think that everyone wants to be comfortable in the chair so that the judging load is lessened and the fun is heightened for all. The seminar idea sounds great. When and where....

Emory, All,

This whole deal in the District hits on many levels, has developed over the last 2.5 seasons, and the essence of which is impossible to capture in an email or internet post.

And because of all that, we need an "Easy-Button" solution that draws people together rather than divide people into clicks.

A good way to hit the "reset" button is to have a weekend dedicated to education and judging excellence. The singlar goal of every judge should be to accurately record the score per each manuever by applying the maneuver downgrades. That is all a judge is being asked to do. No more bias(s), halos, contest fixing, or whatever other name to apply to it - because it gets real ugly and it will never be corrected.

Getting the "competitive" factors correct in something we call a "competition" is the most important underlying thing we can do. However, how do get people to help solve a problem or become invested in a solution if they don't feel one exists in the first place? Hopefully enough people now recognize that somehting needs to be figured out and solved, as the trickle-down effect has become all too apparent. We can even use the judging seminar as a round-table face-to-face kind of event where people can discuss the direction we want to go from here.

The 2008 judging seminar that IMAC conducted in JAX this year was a heck of an event. This was one of the most unifying things I've participated in regarding model aerobatics. This was conducted in a hotel conference room enviornment all day on Saturday. Sunday was a field-flying /training day with flying and judging demonstrations. While we can taylor an event for our needs, this is the type of investement in time and some $$$ it takes to bring people together. This is the level of seriousness our members need to place on it. I'd say given our district size, we need at least 40 people at this event.
Thanks,
Jim

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Emory & Doug,

Sorry, I should have highlighted the "winky" on my post. . . Me and Doug were joking back and forth about stealing my canopy all weekend. . . .
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Now back to more serious discussions. . .
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Oh, OK... I didn't pay attention to the winky

Emory

Jim,

I agree that having a serious judging seminar with demo flights would be great. However, before I drive 400+ miles to the seminar I would like some reasonable guarantee that it won't devolve into an "FAI snap vs. AMA snap" beeatch-fest like the last judging seminar I attended. You need to have a published format and syllabus for the weekend so when the inevitable happens and a couple self-appointed experts begin to hijack the seminar we can all point to the syllabus and tell them to sit down and shut up. You also have to appoint an instructor with enough Street-Cred that can keep everyone on task and maintain the crowd's attention.
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We already have a very powerful resource that can be leveraged to begin standardizing judging - the nsrca.us web site. There is already a judging exam in the judging section. This exam could be expanded to include videos of maneuvers that you score, and make the test an online version. Your score would be recorded for the NSRCA judging committee to review. Before a contest the CD would receive a list of pilots via e-mail who are not up to speed with their judging exams and their highest score over the weekend would be Zeroed. If people are going to be driving long distances to come to a contest, they expect fair and standardized judging - and that means US.
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Also, we need to standardize what classes you are expected to know for judging at contests and then have an additional exam that each member is responsible for. For example - each competitor needs to pass the test for one class above and below their current class. Obviously, guys showing up for their first couple contests in Sportsman would be exempt, but they know when they're ready to take the Intermediate judging exam. If everyone is qualified one class up and down, then the CD doesn't have to waste time beating the bushes looking for judges, he just assigns them while he's making up the flying order. If someone refuses their judging assignment, then Zero their top score of the weekend (for some guys that may be a fair trade!!). If someone doesn't "feel comfortable", then they should be assigned an experienced judge to sit with them and score along with them for a round. After each flight, they are allowed to discuss the scores and make changes if necessary. . .
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All right. . . didn't mean to get that long-winded. .
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. . . . "And that's all I got to say about that". . . .

Keith,

If we reach out for it, there is a template in place to emulate that would ensure a cool and successful event. However I'm not sure we would have committment. Gaining committment to such and event and committment to a new ethos and beginning-point is something that needs a bit of time to develop or to spread the word if nothing else. We need a whole bunch of people willing to drive somehwere and get together for the purposes of judging excellence. We need folks to take judging as serious as they do flying. A few people definately take judging seriously, but many do not. Mostly, there are two judging efforts for a single flight, so there is twice the judging work on display as piloting. Juding & contest scoring is a huge work effort - far more thant the piloting going on. We need a lot of things to happen, as well as some "tools" or rules to help the situation.

For the most part, we have unhurried and non-complex sequences (even FAI). I do not think the sequences overload the judge who is ready for task. We only fly "known" sequences. As a comparison, IMAC changes all class sequences yearly, and each local contest has unknowns. Thus, judges need to be flexible. To aid judging unknowns, we have someone calling aresti elements for the judges. There is no excuse for the judges - judges are expected to get it "right" each time, Sportsman through Unlimited regardless of the unknown factor. A lot of these pilots can go through an unknown sequence at 70-90% the same efficiency they do the knowns. So as a judge, you must "super-concentrate" to catch stuff (... and we still mis somethings).

I only say this to show that being flexible as a judge, and applying downgrades even to "new" sequences, is something that is being done quite a bit. Thus, we should as precision aerobatic pilots/judges, be even more skilled and adept at judging our patterns, which do not change so often, and have no unknowns.

Thanks,
Jim

I'm not sure how a post about the Andersonville contest turned into a state of judging thread....but what the heck

This is seen as sort of a no-win situation for some. Does a problem exist? Of course, from the top all the way to sportsman. We as a group have been working on solutions for years, the trick is agreeing on anything. No matter what you do, someone will find a flaw in it...and it will always be that way because we're human. No matter how hard we try, even if we study it like we were taking the bar exam, we're going to make mistakes. Sometimes critical ones that change outcomes. We've hashed and re-hashed the reasons and possible solutions to death, and in the end it comes down to individual choice. Do you WANT to spend the time and effort to become an exceptional judge? Even though my life and my own choices allow me to go to great lengths in this area, many others just.....won't.

If we do manage to get enough people interested in something like this, we'll have the best judges in all of pattern. But some would argue we already do. And if I have one issue with any of this, it's that we don't hear enough about the ones who get it right. All we hear about are the ones who supposedly don't. And if someone who didn't fly in this district read this, well you'd likely draw the conclusion that we as a group are a bunch of incompetent slackers. You and I know that's not the case, but that does bother me. You have your issues, that one is mine. And no I don't take this personally I'm just looking at the big picture. I'm always learning and trying to improve. I'm not the best or the worst, I'm the best I can be at this time and seeking improvement.

I'm game for whatever, as always, like I said from day one. I've studied the patterns, downgrades etc ad nauseum, and judged and flown it in competition (sort of). I'm ready to judge it whenever. But at Andersonville, I wasn't asked. It was decided to let the contestants judge it themselves before I ever got word of it. And that's fine with me if that's what you want to do. but I think you may find contestant judging isn't the solution, because there are some fatal flaws with the way it was done at the 2 contests where it was tried. I doubt that the outcome would shift too much, but the point spread is pretty interesting. Different to be sure, whether it's more correct or not who knows, I wasn't scoring the flights.

I think you'll find more than a few people willing to attend such a seminar. But timing and location will be everything, due to gas prices, personal lives and priorities among other things. Just let me know when and where and I'll be there.

And yes Jason, you're brutal in the chair....

Remember to have fun!
-Mike

Mike, you too can be honest... I mean brutal in the chair...

Of course everyone can and should be honest when they judge, right? What's the point of getting... say a 7 for a flopped stall turn if it's really a 3 or 4? Does that 7 make you a better pilot cause the judge ignored the flop? When I have a horrible flight, I have a friend that will tell me that I had a perfect flight when another friend will tell me that I wouldn't make the finals with the same flight. I'm glad they were both watching, but the one I listen to is the one that tells me it was horrible. At least when he tells me I had a good, I know it was good.

I really hope that we can get a seminar planned and figured out. Like everyone says though, you have to want to be a better judge.

Oh yes, I'm brut.....err honest. No doubt. Or try to be, ask the advanced guys who are probably calling me "spin nazi" since last weekend

-Mike

spin nazi!!!!!!!lol

gary

Actually fellas, I find the most difficult class to judge is Sportsman. The manuevers are short and quickly paced. That is way harder to keep up with than FAI where most everything is stretched out with clear breaks between more complex shapes.

Frankly, I'm very troubled that anyone would feel they can't or won't judge FAI, especially at the master's level. When the move was made to shift away from USPJA judges to contestant judges, it was understood that it was your responsibility as a pilot to learn the rules and sit in the chair and fairly judge folks in other classes either above or below the class you fly. It's all just loops, rolls and lines guys. Nothing complicated about that!

I'm definitely for a district wide clinic. Judging isn't a secret, but we all have opiions that influence our numbers. The best thing we can all do is talk about it and get several points of view on how to downgrade after everyone has sat and watched the same flight. Not sitting around talking theory, but actually comparing what each person saw. It really works wonders, which is why there is a warm up flight at the nats before the finals and the judges have a debriefing before the competion continues.

Maybe the next time Jas deals out a 2, you should go talk to him and try to understand why you received a downgrade... I know I've had my share from him and others and asking about it makes me better because I sure don't want another one in the next round!

Perhaps we should suggest that the judging seminar at the nats be expanded into a clinic? Boy that would be fun, no?

joe

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If that is what is expected, then it needs to be put in writing and communicated to the masses on a regular basis because some of us weren't around in the Grand Old Glory Days of pattern. You also need to have a means to ensure that the masses actually "got the message". Honestly, how many guys would tell the CD "Sorry, I was too lazy to study the Advanced schedule so I can't judge it." No, most will silently nod their head, sit in the chair and give out a string of 7's, 8's, 9's, and an occasional 10 for takeoff or landing. Most of what people know about judging is hand-me-down information that they managed to accumulate over the years. No wonder we have "regional biases" in flying styles.
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Someone has to set up a comprehensive judges training program and have a way to track who has completed it if you want the dudes in the chairs to have any credibility. If you get credibility and fairness in the system, people will want to come back and play.
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I'm still very new to pattern or I feel that I am. To have judging clinics for D3 would be good especially people like me and a few others in my area that want to learn too. With the gas crunch going on maybe have several small clinics in the D3 region would be the best way to get this done. Some in Florida, Georgia, Alabama ... and I'm sure there should be an authority in the different areas that could head each clinic. I know I would attend a clinic as long as it was some what close to where I live. And if there is anything I can do to help organize this I would be glad to jump in. Just my 2 cents for what it's worth

Lawrence

For what it's worth, I concur with Mike. I'm sure I can judge FAI. If they have full stall entry spinning maneuvers, Mike & I are ready. I wasn't asked to judge FAI at Andersonville. Joe's right, judging Sportsman can get chaotic. I'm fortunate I can observe two FAI guys practice their sequences on a regular basis at RCACF. It helps to be able to sit back, relax, admire the performance, then discuss it with your peers.

Steve

Hrmmm...well, I can't say I've ever gotten a 2 from Jason yet. 4 yes, 0 yes, not a 2 or 3. Yet.....there is still plenty of time though LOL

When I get those scores, I know what I did. You can argue the exact number all day long, but if it's a 2 or 3, you know you did something wrong, and you know what it was. Solution? Don't do that again! Simple.

And, I probably nail him harder in the chair than most. And he noticed.... like immediately....

What matters is that you apply the same hardness (or brutality or honesty) to all pilots, because in the end the winner gets 1000 anyway. It's second down's relationship to that number that has any bearing.

Other than that, know the sequence you're judging. because if someone rolls the wrong way, if they're good they'll do it so smooth it looks intentional...and then you score it if you don't know it was wrong. But all of that guy's competitors will know!

Guys there are solutions to these problems, so we just need to get together and work on it. That is going to require patience and respect with a healthy dose of dedication. Some will, and some won't. And that's the part that can't be changed. So we need to work hard with the "wills".

Now I gotta run, I have some zeroes waiting for me in Alabama

-Mike

Guys - A lot of good ideas are being presented here. One thing the peer judging effort from the Tangerine showed is that different people use different standards to downgrade the same observed flaw. We should strive to remove both the "Nazi" & "Santa Clause" judging tendancies, as they are both a disservice. Hopefully the judges can stay within 2 points of each other per maneuver.

The better pilot or judge you become, the easier it is to see airplane attitudes and predict flaws. However, I hope no one is actually doing that. I might "see-everything" the pilot is doing and know it all too well, but as a judge, I need to simply examine the "result" and determine which criteria was violated and makes for a downgrades and the score.

We need to ensure we are focusing on the actual result and any downgrade. There is all kinds of examples, but we need to focus on the result and not down grade on "how" it happened. Also, I hope no one is just "going with first impression" or some other unquantifiable means of arriving at a score.

Jim

Keith,
Excellent point. My reference to USPJA was just to remind everyone of the history. Glory days or not, one the reason USPJA fell apart was because of perceived flaws in the system (Halo, etc...). Judging was a problem then as it is now.

So, being solution oriented, where do people want to see a clinic happen? Atlanta area? My vote would be Ocala, but I'm only slightly biased on that one...

OR

Should we dedicate some time at the beginning of each contest to have a mini seminar? Eats up part of Saturday, but if we get this thing right, everyone has more fun.

Thoughts?

Joe

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My vote would be either Friday or Saturday after flying. Almost everyone meets for dinner anyway. . . . However, you still have to standardize the guys giving the seminars. It would also be very helpful to get 80% of the work out of the way via web-based training, that way you can concentrate on answering questions instead of reading the Judges Guide to attendees. Almost everyone has access to the internet, right?? (If you don't, please raise your hand)
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