Has anyone used the Cline and Associates PCFS yet? By this Friday, I'll have my Venus II and OS 1.20AX. I want to put the fuel tank on the CG, but don't want to use a Perry Pump...

You should not need a pump, or a demand feed pressurized regulator with the OS 120AX unless the tank is fairly far aft of the firewall. If you do still want to do it, I recommend using the VP30 pump. It's a simpler setup than the PCFS and you don't have to worry about managing a pressurized tank system. The VP30 works better than the PCFS too.

Yep,...agree,......VP30!

PCFS did not work well for me, it was to erratic,...ran fine one minute and poor the next. You can not have any leaks or the engine will not run constantly. I finially sealed the system, the leaking was around the push on 90 degree nipples. I ended up glueing them on,....it's a very simple design and it works well, but the VP30 is "way" more consistant.

Plus,...the engine will flood real easy just sitting,you need to clamp of the line to the carb or leave the fuel system open,..until your ready to fly.

I have used Perry pumps since 1995 and have never had one fail or cause a problem. I have the first perry pump I ever bought and it still works great even today (OS-160, 2 meter ship).


Regards,
Bill Holsten

Something wrong there I think?
The diaphragm in the regulator should not allow fuel past, until there is suction from the carb,i.e. the engine should be running,or at least turning over on the starter.
I don't fly it very often nowadays, but I have a Cline regulator (very close to the carb) on an OS 120 Ax,and it has always performed well for me.
Because the model hangs about (literally) unflown for months at a time, starting up for the first time involves a fairly generous prime from a sqeezy bottle, but after that starting and running are very consistent.

Bill
With your experience, may I ask about the VP-20 Perry Pump? I bought a VP-20 for a Saito .82a to install in an Osmose 70 and I would like to install the tank over the CG. The Osmose 70 has two tank locations available. Non-pumped, behind the firewall. Pumped, CG location. The CG location would be opened to atmosphere on the vent side with a one-way valve in the vent line towards the tank.

F3A05,

Yep I agree,...the only thing I could figure out for the cause of the problem of flooding is while the plane sit's in the "heat" (cold days were not so bad) with fuel in the tank ( 90+ degrees in South Carolina and very high humidity in the summer) it would develop some internal pressure from vapor expansion, that expansion slowly pushes the fuel in the only direction it can go,...the carb.

I actually watched this happen one day over the course of 45 mins, you could watch the fuel slowly creep through the fuel line, eventually fuel would just constantly drip out of the carb at a fast drip. This was stopped by simply opening up the fill line and leaving it open or put hemistats on the carb line until I was ready to fly.

Since the fuel system is closed with the aid of a check valve (included with regulator) to be placed at the pressure tap extending off the crank case pushed up inside the fuel tubing and there is no vent. The vapor has to go some where,...YS160, if you don't purge the tank after a flight it will flood naturally on it own under pressue,..hence the magic clip came along and the everso creative use of the hemistats appeared again.

The PCFS is ok,...lots of people have used them with sucess,..for me the darn nipples would never stay on even after I glued them on. Note: IF I was torque rolling (Goldberg Obsession) the regulator could not keep up with fuel demand the engine would go lean to the point it was nearly impossible to pull out of the torque roll,...called an emergency harrier landing at 10 feet. So,...I put the old trusty VP30 back on and never had another problem!

Note: I think both products are good products and people will experience failures with any product from time to time,..it dosen't make it a bad product.

Regards,
Bill Hosten

Brickhead,

I have seen mixed results with the VP20,....I think for the most part some of the people I have been around that had issues with it didn't follow the pump mounting instructions. That's an oscillating pump and needs to "shake" to help make pressure and pump. The VP20 has less tollerence for deviating from the recommended mounting method. I would follow the instruction on mounting the pump and put the tank on the CG and give it a try. You will know if it's not going to work well when you hold the aircraft vertical,...see if the engine sags or falls off,..make sure the engine is running a nice needle setting while on the ground,...good transitions first.

Hope that helps,.....


Regards,
Bill Holsten

I'm setting up an airplane right at this minute, and can't decide if to use the Cline or the Perry VP30 sitting on the bench.
The Cline seems simple (i'm doing a 2 stroke retro fit after a YS for winter flying/fuel cost/long story) plug and play after the YS.
My problem with the Perry is I've never set on up. Cant find the instructions, don't know which way it should be orientated, how to adjust it etc etc.
I know a lot of people are VERY happy with the VP30...Any experts out there that can guild me?

Thanks Bill.
Engine is broking in and high and low needles are set. Now to install the pump. Again Thank You.

Bob...check your e-mail

David,

The VP30 is very simple to set up,...it's a no brainer! You simply have a pair of nipples on the top of the pump, fuel in and fuel out with arrows to show the fuel flow direction and the nipple on the bottom is where you connect it to the crankcase pressure tap or (nipple). There is also a pump adjustment screw,...I wouldn't touch it,...never had a reason to.


Bob,..your welcome,...my pleasure to help.

Best regards,
Bill Holsten

One thing to note about using the VP30 on many engines, is that you will likely need to lean the low end needle a fair amount. If you experience hard starting due to flooding, see fuel dripping, have problems with midrange stumbling etc, look at your low end needle first. You may be suprised at how much you need to turn it in to make the idle mixture right and to get a good midrange response.

Yes,...that is very true!

My OS-160's were both about 1/4 turn out from fully close on the low end,...course this will vary from set up to set up with variations in pipe lenghts. That was a good point to mention,...if the engines are new I would not recommend turning it in to far, work up to the sweet point on the low end.


Regards,
Bill Holsten

Cheers for that.
One question, why that god d'ed awfull red tubing for connecting to the pressure/crank?
Can I just use a normal piece of silicone tubing?
Any special way to orient the pump?
What about the adjustment screw? Leave it alone or adjust it as required... problem is, which way does the screw work: Out less pumping, in, more pumping etc.
Sorry about the Q's, just need to get gen'ed up otherwise I'll end up chasing the wrong fixes.
Cheers to all.

I never found silicon tubing small enough to work, so I ended up buying some small neoprene tubing at a pet store (air line for a fish tank filter).

Pump orientation is not critical, but it ought to be as close the carb as practical and on the same level, or close to it.

You may not ever need to adjust the pressure, although I've typically lowered it up to about a turn when used on an OS 160FX. You want enough to provide good pressure for any attitude, under a lot of G's, but not so much that it makes the low end needle adjustment critical. This is the consideration when used with a carb that isn't designed for use with a pump, such as that on the 160FX.

David Bathe,

you can download Perry pump instructions here http://www.perrypumps.com/instructions.htm.

Instead of using the pressure fitting that comes with the Perry VP30 pump I use the O.S. 140EFI pressure fitting installed in the upper left crankcase cover bolt hole of the O.S 1.60FX and find that the pressure line diameter is not critical. Maybe there is more pumping action available through that fitting. I'm running three OS 160's in that configuration.

The picture shows the pump mounted snug with the engine and oriented as suggested in the instructions.

OK Chaps, here's a bit of hands on feed back.
Replaced the YS91FZ the a brand new OS 91FX and ran 2 liters through it, wet rich.

Placed the tank back on the CG, hooked up the Cline using exactly the same plumbing/valve as with the YS.
Ran very well, seemed to be reasonable dialed in.
The problems started when I began positioning the aircraft (hand held) at different attitudes/different throttle setting.
I was getting quite different mixture responses (from rich to lean) as I moved the aircraft up and down upright and inverted.
Not much mind you but enough to be concerned about.
On closer inspection I noticed air bubble in the fuel line from the Cline to the remote then to the carb.
I'd seal and glued on the nipples but still, air was entering somewhere.

Next I flipped around the plumbing and hooked up the Perry. It took less than 30 secs.
Slobbering rich as some of you had mentioned in the above replies, so I screwed in the low seed NV about 2 turns and BANG.... it was just lock in.
Picked up the plane, moved it up and down, upright and inverted and many different throttle settings... gently and violently... NOT a burble, not a cough.
Absolutely perfect where ever I positioned the plane.
Very satisfied.
There'll be some work to do as time progress and the engine beds in some more but conclusion so far...
The Perry is quite wonderful... rock solid.

Just as a side note, I haven't used a 2 stroke for many years, stayed with the YS's... big and small.
But the FX is so lovely to use. So simple, no nonsense piece of hobby motor compared to the YS.
I mean it brand new... and a quick finger bounce against the compression and it's idling...
non of the pumping up the pressure, turning it over with the starter, heating the glow and waiting for it to fire nonsense!
And quiet with the standard muffler, least as quiet as the YS with the Hatori.
And the power? I'd guess by feeling the vertical pull... more than the YS.
No brainer engine on cheap fuel.
Exactly what I was looking for.
Thanks for your help.

PS I've post a prop q on the forum, maybe somebody can help with that?

Glad to hear you had a good experience with the VP30,...I also used the OS140RX fitting that replaces on of the crankcase screws on my OS-160's. The older OS160 had a flat back plate, so drilling and tapping was easy. The new ones have more architecture and it's difficult to get into those tight spaces with tools to drill and tap the backplate. The OS140 RX fitting works great and it looks kool!




Regards,
Bill Holsten

Team Fliton

I have used the Cline regulator system on both O.S. 160 and 1.20ax. Works absolutely flawless. Never have to re-set the needle, never goes lean, and will not let fuel to the carb at any time. You guys either have a faulty set-up, or a bad diaphram in the regulator. The perry pump is no way a better solution to delivering consistent fuel flow to the engine. I use the 120ax in a competative advanced pattern plane with over 60 plus flights on the current set-up. Over 100 flights on the 160fx. So not sure why you are all discounting the cline system.

Will

Hey Im not knocking it.
There where air bubbles in the line from the regulator to the needle.
Solve that and I'm sure it's fine. Just couldn't solve it!

Did 4 flights with the FX/Perry today.
Engine ran well through out, no dead sticks.

The situation now is as follows. Top end good, bottom end good, Mid range rich.
Adjusted the LS NV to the point that, well, half a turn more stops the engine.
So what's the next step, unscrew the pump one turn? I'm tempted.
I'm in your hands.

Engine feedback.
OK, So it's not a YS.
But jez' it's simple.

I've also used the Cline system successfully on two Moki 1.80 setups. I've also used the VP30 on 3 of my own OS 1.60 FX setups and have helped about 8 local guys do the same. The VP30 is 1/2 the price and is "fire & forget" once it's set up. When you do it right, the engine is super easy to start and there's nothing to worry about. You never have to mess around with a pressurized tank, no worries about whether your check valve is still working right (get ready for that someday), no worries about the nitro in your fuel eventually desolving the CA joint for the nipples on the regulator body. That is also going to happen to your setups, so be sure to always have alchohol, Q Tips and CA at the field with you so you can clean it up and re-attach. No maintenance on a diaphragm either.

I'm sure the VP30 doesn't last forever, but it seems to outlast the Cline. That's my experience from many hundreds of flights on both setups. Anyhow, fly what's working for you. I liked the Cline when I first used it, but I've found that there is a better solution.

Hey David,

If you use an F-plug it will help the mid-range problem,..it won't cure it! All three of my OS-160's smoked more in the mid-range but never actually loaded up the engine to the point it would sputter. You may still need to adjust the low end a tad bit more once the engine gets broken in more and it will be very reliable.

Cline is a nice product and I don't think anyone is knocking it, but as stated by several post already,...I had probably 50 flights of problematic issues constantly,...bubbles,....bla...bla,...bla. In the beginning maybe 10 flights it worked fantastic,...very inconsistant after that. Everyone will have a mixed opinion as far as results,.....good or not so good. The whole idea here is to provide information and experiences,...one "VS" the other for those people that ask questions. And in return,...they make there own decissions,..it's all good!


Regards,

Bill Holsten
Team Fliton