Hey Frank,

Like you said, the builders are a dieing breed and the average is 55 but hey, 29 here and holding up the youngsters!

For my 2 cents in this matter. I competed last year in Pro-Am Pro with a Meister-Scale P-47. I built the plane from plans, however used the first pre-production fiberglass fuse. I competed with Dino and his AW F-190 of which he won our class with. You get 25 points for showing a picture of the plane your competing with. The rest is flying. As far as pro-am, wouldn't that put us all on the same playing field? What I mean is, I spent a ton of hours riveting, painting, putting scale stuff on, scale cockpit, to be beat by Dino who didn't even build the his plane! Why, because Dino flew his plane better than me (well, I called for him once, so that helped) As far as the rules go for competition, in Pro-Am Am and Pro, I think the rules were put into place to let people compete on the flying side.

I had many people come up to me and asked why in the world did I put so much detail in a plane that I'm flying in Pro-Am. My answer was two fold. One, I don't plan on flying in Pro-Am my entire competitive life and I want to build the best I can now and learn from the best while I am there. I thought my plane was pretty hot stuff until I got there and learned, I'm just scratching the surface. My second reason was, hey, if Frank and the boys gave me an invitation, I want to support Top Gun with the absolute best I can be and best I can produce. I don't down anyone for bringing something they did not build, but my personal opinion is I want to constantly learn and build better things and fly better each year. I love the fact that Pro-Am allows guys who want to grow,.......simply do that. They can come in and see what it is about and expand from there.

I'm not a huge ARF fan but yes I do have several of my own. But guys, the industry is changing. We have gotten ourselves so busy now days that many do not have the time to scratch build like others do. I am afraid that if we stick to ideas that worked in the past, we will loose even more people in this hobby. I commend Frank for allowing re-made versions of ARFs in even though I spent a great deal more time and energy in my project. I want to see this hobby grow and I want to see more people compete. Loosening the grip on who can or who can't compete will allow growth in this venue (in my opinion). I would love to say places like Top Gun should only be for the builders who scratch built their planes, but I think we would see less and less participation as the 55 yr olds get older. I don't think there are enough of us "young *****s" at this point to keep it growing.

My last point is my brother. He has a thread on here where he took a CMP Giant Zero, totally stripped it down and re-built it. This plane now has rivet detail, weathering, etc. I'm very proud of his work and at a recent airshow in FL it was constantly getting mistaken for a Yellow Aircraft Zero. My brother's dream so to compete with me at Top Gun. However, at this point in his life, he is a full time student and works full time. Keeping a high GPA, keeping his job, and building big planes are his life. He has told me on numerous occasions that he wants to scratch build, but he currently lives in a small condo while at school and doesn't have the time. He will someday. On one hand, we complain about loosing builders and scale guys in this hobby and I agree. Let's be careful not to crush opportunity, yet allow avenues for those like my brother to grow and compete. One day he, like I will be at the Expert and Masters class, just not today.

I agree that at those high levels, there is no place for ARFs, but I am happy and think it was a good decision by Frank and others to allow avenues like Pro-Am to open opportunities for people to compete, learn, and grow there skills.

I know, that was a heck of a lot for two cents

PJ

So if I hire someone to build me a real nice plane from scratch, or take an ARF and detail the heck out of it only the plane built from a scratch could compete? Just playing devils advocate, but it's still and ARF if my buddy makes it from scratch or someone makes it puts it in a box and sells it in a hobby shop. If the plane can compete, then let it compete. There really aren't that many nice ARF, so I don't know what all the noise is about. A glass fuze sure makes things a lot easier too, but that's not an ARF, maybe it's a ARTC...can they compete?

The more people we have in the hobby the better it will be for our future. If you are worried about people loosing building skills, then find a young person and mentor them and help then learn to appreciate the joy of building from scratch. That's whay my uncle did with me

Thanks for clarifying that. It speaks volumes.

Hey Ed!

I understand your comments... However, I wouldnt fly in Pro Am then!

Guys,
You really need to start reading the thread and not just the last few comments.
All the answers about ARFs at Top Gun have been gone over to death. NO ARFs are allowed PERIOD. You may bring an ARC, glass it, paint it and detail it. However, it MUST be checked out by a TG official first. Pro Am has NOTHING to do with building a model. Its a flying event. Top Gun is a flying event.... Thats what we do. If you want to take high pride in your model as a builder then stick to the other classes. If you want to take pride in your skills as a pilot then enter Pro Am. Its that simple. Top Gun is NOT a static model event. If you want to build a static model stick to plastics... Top Gun bring the best of both worlds to your hands. Choose what you want to be... a builder, a pilot or both.

WHEN CARROLL SHELBY WAS ASKED WHAT HE THOUGHT OF THE "FAST LITTLE IMPORTS OF TODAY" HE SAID HE THOUGHT IT WAS GREAT THAT A HIGH SCHOOL KID COULD BUY A CHEAP CAR AND HOP UP, BECAUSE IT HASN'T BEEN POSSIBLE IN YEARS. I FEEL THE SAME ABOUT ARF'S, IF YOU CAN TAKE IT OUT A BOX DO SOME BETTER DETAILING AND HAVE A CLASS TO GO COMPETE IN THEN IT'S FOR THE BETTER. I USED TO BE A GREAT OPPONENT OF THE ARF THING BUT FACE IT THE WORLD IS A RAT RACE AND PEOPLE DON'T HAVE TIME FOR BUILDING ANYMORE. I HAVE OTHER THINGS I ENJIOY DOING ALONG WITH FLYING SO I CAN'T DEDICATE THE TIME TO IT. BUT WHEN I GET FINISHED WITH AN ARF NO ONE WILL BELIVE IT EVER WAS AN ARF! AND IF THEY GET MAD THAT IT BEATS THEM THEN THEY NEED TO DO WHAT WE SAY AT THE BOAT RACES "GO HOME AND DO YOUR HOMEWORK!" JEFF

Well Said Jeff!!
Dino

Statements like : "I don't have time" or "People don't have time to build anymore" are a slap in my face and it is a slap in the faces of your mothers, fathers, grand fathers and grand mothers! How absolutly conceited and myopic a position to take!

The statement physically makes me want to PUKE!

You guys need to find a better excuss! FACT: We make time for the things we want to do! You don't want to build, that's fine, but quit with the Bull S--- excusses!

The way I see it, ARF's simply don't have the scale qualities that a well-built kit has. I have never built a Kit, much less a scale one...but I know I don't have the finishing skills to finish an entire airplane well. If a person is going to seriously compete with an ARF, let them...but it's going to take a lot of modifications to get the plane even near the level of a good kit. Also, the plane isn't going to look as good unless a GREAT job is done at fixing it. I mean, modifying an ARF is a matter of patching flaws. A well-built kit has scale characteristics designed into it.
Does that make any sense? Oh well, that's my opinion. Oh, just to let y'all know...I love kits. I've been dying to build one for the whole year and a half I've been in this hobby, but as a 17-year-old High School Senior I'm tied up in school and school-related things about 14 hours a day. Also, my parents are against the idea of me building a kit (the mess and all). My point is, I can see where all of you have a perfectly valid point...especially the kit-only advocates' points. I'm just saying, at least I have a valid point (I hope). I mean, what stock ARF looks like those biplanes from the first page?

"GO HOME AND DO YOUR HOMEWORK!" [sm=lol.gif][sm=lol.gif][sm=lol.gif]

Good One.

Ok so if you want to use an ARF in "Top Gun" you can't. If you want to buy a plane built by someone else or an ARC and fly it in Top Gun you can, but only in Pro Am class? So if I buy a glass fuze from someone, build the wings and other flying surfaces and finish it to scale, I am fine?

What if it's a foam core wing and all I do is sheet it, glass it and paint it? I just don't see the difference with a Ziroli kit with a glass fuse and pre-cut wings and an ARF? So one needs the wing assembled and covered and the other dosen't. Big deal. Sure the Ziroli kit will take longer because you have to build the wing and cover it, but it's not that hard to build a wing. I have built both types of kits and if you can take an ARF and compete you should be able to. Otherwise how can you allow kits built by others and entered in the competition? I hire someone to build a kit or buy and ARF what's the difference? Can I buy a Top Gun winning plane from last year and then compete with it this year, maybe repaint it and change a few things??


Jeff

Jeff,

Some answers to your questions....

Q What if it's a foam core wing and all I do is sheet it, glass it and paint it? I just don't see the difference with a Ziroli kit with a glass fuse and pre-cut wings and an ARF?
A (YOU DONT SEE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AN ARF AND A FG FUSE WHICH HAS BUILT UP WINGS?) [sm=confused.gif]

Q So one needs the wing assembled and covered and the other dosen't. Big deal. Sure the Ziroli kit will take longer because you have to build the wing and cover it, but it's not that hard to build a wing.
A (EXACTLY, THEN BUILD THE PLANE) [sm=thumbup.gif]

Q I have built both types of kits and if you can take an ARF and compete you should be able to.
A (ONCE AGAIN, NO ARFS ALLOWED AT TOP GUN) [sm=drowning.gif][:@]

Q Otherwise how can you allow kits built by others and entered in the competition?
A (ITS CALLED TEAM SCALE...HAS ANYONE READ THE TOP GUN RULE BOOK YET??)

Q I hire someone to build a kit or buy and ARF what's the difference?
A (YOU DONT HAVE TO HIRE ANYONE TO BUILD THE MODEL.. ENTER IN TEAM AND FLY IT)

Q Can I buy a Top Gun winning plane from last year and then compete with it this year, maybe repaint it and change a few things??
A (YOU SURE CAN... IN FACT, YOU DONT EVEN HAVE TO REPAINT IT!... ALTHOUGH YOU CAN ONLY ENTER IT IN PRO AM SINCE YOU DIDNT BUILD IT.... HOWEVER, IF YOU BOUGHT IT FROM THE BUILDER... TAKE IT TO TEAM... SEE HOW EASY THIS IS GUYS??) [sm=thumbup.gif]

Any other questions?

I hope to have my RV-4 at TopGun along with our Russian Tu-95 Bear (3 years in the making) flying Teamscale

Icemanjr92, They won't get that they need to be invited to compete at Top Gun, either!

This thread is not just about Top Gun! Although in my mind, Top Gun is certainly the epitome. It is about competition with Scale R/C Airplanes. Also, I don't understand how people who obviously know nothing about this activity can come here and say, well I think this is how it should be done. There are rules for Top Gun, Scale Masters and AMA Scale already in place. If your interest is in competing in R/C Scale, why not first read the rules pertaining to all the venues and make a decision based on the set of rules which best fit your idea about how a contest should be run. Stop whinning about the presumption that ARFs can't compete, or, wondering if you can buy an airplane from someone who can still build them and cheat the system by saying you built it and competing with it!

Yes, there is a bit of "On your honor" involved. If your winning a trophy with someone elses hard work and effort wouldn't feel pretty shallow to you, then more then the loss of people who know how to build model airplanes is at stake here!

Oh, before I forget, an important point: I think you have to be invited to compete at Top Gun!

I would read the rules, but I don't have the time. Tried to build some arfs, but I don't have the time for that either...

Ummmmm, Jeff,

Last time I checked, Carroll Shelby didn't compete in Scale Model Airplane contests. And you can't enter a cheap car in a Scale Model Airplane contest either. If people don't have time to build, that's fine. They won't enter a Scale Model Airplane contest either. If there is something that you enjoy doing more, then still fine. You still won't be entering a Scale Model Airplane contest. If you show me a bashed ARF, I will not only believe it was an ARF, I will know it was an ARF. You can't put a pair of pink silk drawers on a Spotted Poland-china Sow and pass her off as a pole dancer either. It's all about choices. You make yours, and I'll make mine. So, to turn a phrase against you, If you want to enter a top level Scale Model Airplane contest then (here it comes) (are you ready?) (It's gonna sting....) Go home and do your homework. You should really read the rules for the various contests. They are really the rules, and they ain't gonna change them to suit you. I really hate to sound like a Horses rear, but that is the honest truth. I know that you are probably a member of the, "ME", generation, but this one is not about what you want. It's about what the facts are, and if it doesn't suit your purpose, sorry about your luck.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

I'll look forward to seeing it. I really do enjoy looking at a multi=year project. I'm in the middle of one myself. Every time I think that I can see daylight, something else pop's up to change things. It's either chickens or ducks, roaches or spiders. I just decided to make the edges of the tail surfaces out of real tubing, so that it more closely follows the scale outline, and planform. You just can't get that shape from sanded Balsa. Nothing major, just a couple of weeks work down the crapper. When folks see the Horizontal Stabilizer change incidence for trim under servo power, there should be a little wow factor there. There is a bunch more, such as a scale shock absorbing tail wheel, and a bunch of other stuff. Here's a sneak peek.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

Mode One,
You can call me Dino.. Thats my name... I understand that Top Gun is not the only competition. However, photos of my model were used in this thread regarding an ARF that I flew at Top Gun and won with. Therefore, I am only speaking about Top Gun rules in this thread as I have been competing at TG since 1992 as a pilot. Yes, TG is by invitation only. If you want to compete at TG, send Frank Tiano an email or give him a call. Theres no secret to finding him. WWW.FRANKTIANO.com

Maybe I misunderstood your comment about feeling shallow about taking someone elses plane and winning a trophy with it... but I have won Top Gun 4 times as a pilot. Do I feel shallow about it? Not a chance. You know why? Because I worked hard for those positions and everyone that gets invited has the same rules and guidelines. You either accept them or not. In fact, Frank has made it easier for guys to go to Top Gun. Back in 1991, I had to compete at 3 different events and place in the top 5 before I could even think of getting an invitation. I worked hard for my trophies. Some years were good and many were bad....

Dino,

My take on his post was that he was referring to those who would buy a plane and take it to a contest and try to pass it of as one that they had built themselves. I might be wrong, but that was my read on it. Will the Bearcat be back this year?

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

Hey Bill,

I understand as the post fluctuates highly. I too was lost a few times. I only commented about my photos and my aircraft that were brought up. I only wanted to try and let the guys see what transpires at TG only. Maybe it will help and inspire some guys to compete at some point. Those with the passion for Scale modeling or personal flight scores should try it out sometime. When I started there was only Team Scale in my mind since I was a pilot. Now there are many options for those who would like to try it out. In my opinion, Pro Am is all about flight scores since every plane is equal at a 25 point static. Thats just the way it is.... So, you are looking for the Bearcat? I believe that was Dave's. (please dont mention that it was a composite kit or we will be doing this all over again!

This has been great fun! I poured a pint and cooked up some popcorn. This thread seems to surface every so often. Really makes for some entertaining reading. Just for the record, I have been to Top Gun, and a few scale qualifiers in the past. I've never competed but would love to some day. I've built many kits (11), arfs (too numerous to count), composite kits (3). I want to start another thread to ask your considered opinions about where all these scale meets are at?! I think this is by far the larger issue at stake for scale competition. I will start the thread and hopefully you more practiced modellers will add your thoughts.

I think the point about ARF's has been made, no?

Dino, In no way was I refurring to you. I am a little more up to speed now about what is being refurred to as Composite and understand there is a lot of work in getting one into the air. My responses are directed towards the people who feel the rules need to be changed to accomodate ARFs being allowed.

Sorry for the confusion!

I guess my point has been made. The ARF has been defined by both Top Gun and the AMA .Read the rules .I still think we are making noise and not trying to help in anyway. ARF guys want what the true builders are getting...you know, slaps on the back, pics taken , interviews, internet accolades and such. Face it guys, its just a product of todays society where everyone is treated equally. Now there is a difference in equally and fairly but back to making noise. I say give the arf guys what they want....oh they have that already its called "Funscale." So whats the real issue here? I forget. Here is what needs to happen, we need to have an arf bashing session and line them up and see if the arf can be spotted Hows that for another .02 worth? I am almost up to a nickles worth of making noise

Damn,Bill.You mean we spent a year and a half and all we have is a "Spotte Poland-China Sow in Pink Silk(Super Coverite)Drawers"!!!!!And I thought we had the Bulldog II!!!!!!!

getting some pretty good commentary here now.
funny, as dino pointed out, I dont think anybody has
looked at the rules yet? well, some have, but it seems
that they have missed I posted a link to them

anyways, Terry (TLH101) pointed out last page about
some of these composite "kits" out there (SisT, Airworld, etc)
do take time to finish. as has Dino pointed out with the AW 190
he has.

heck, I have been a year on my SisT D9!

might need a pilot next year Dino, or the year there after [8D]