DR1, I respectfully disagree. Unless you are competing in FAI, scale competition is about producing a model which matches your documentation. I do those little things you describe for ME, not the judges. As to all of this, WHERE ARE ALL YOU SCRATCH /KIT BUILDERS and why are you not attending contests??? Again, as someone who DOES compete regularily, the more the merrier. The fellowship is the best part and you know what? You just may make some converts in the process. I know I have. I will be bringing at least two new competitors whio have never built an R/C model from kit or scratch to compete in expert at the Mint Juleop next year. If it weren't for ARF's, I never would have met them and been able to help them understand the pride that can come from building. You have to want to do this for you. If it starts with covering, when they get to a show they will get the bug and want to do better.Again, no disrespect but just my perspective

If memory serves correctly TG does not allow arf's of any sort in ProAm. But that is just a TG rule. For what ever it may be worth TG is just one contest and for myself which I have competed in don't really care much about it. But that is another story altogether for some other post. Most other scale contests allow for arf's in the Fun Scale class as mentioned earlier.

Obviously the ARF is allowed a role at some Scale R/C Airplane contests at present. It is separate from builders scale, as it should be, in my opinion. I agree with cocobear that the actual building, is a smaller portion then the detailing and finishing. However, it is the basic portion of the process that I feel must be part and partial to the "builder of the plane" requirment.

As far as competing goes, I simply don't have the money; or, the inclination to do so. I go to Mall Shows and that's about the extent of the competing I do. Many might say now; I don't have the right to an opinion on this topic, because I don't compete! That's fine you have your opinion and I have mine! Mine is still that I think there should be a venue which should never change and that Scale R/C Airplane competions should be for builders of model airplanes! My definition of a builder is someone who starts with a kit, plans or designs his own. My definition of a kit is a box containing parts which do not look like componant parts of an airplane.

This is not a condemnation of ARFs! It's only my opinion on this topic!

If you want to get serious a Kit built plane should not be a TG plane. You did not shape the ribs, bulkhead, formers & so on. you assembled parts that someone else built. then you detailed it. So where does that differ from a severly bashed ARF. I have the utmost respect for Scratch Builders & knew one of the best years ago & think only a Truly Scratch built plane should have a shot @ TG. Just my opinion.

We can split hairs until everyone is blue in the face! If you have ten people you will get ten opinions and nothing will ever gets done! If you think a kit shouldn't be allowed in competition becasuse of your above statements, good luck with that!

Excuse me for clipping part of the original post, but I felt that only the part where you asked me a question needed to be included. Have you ever taken a composite kit out of the box? For the most part, they are very rough. While it's true that most of the surface detail is there, the internals are not. Did you read what I said about the composite models having to take a point penalty for a composite fuselage? Did you see where I told about a model with composite wings having to take additional penalty points? I suppose not. In order for a composite model to win at Top Gun, it must have scored high in static (remember, it has lost points to overcome) and then it must be flown better than virtually anything else there. How would you like to compete against guys like Frank Noll, Wayne Seifert, Nick Ziroli Sr., Dennis Crooks, or Bob Violett, even if you were all flying ARF Thunderturds? Exactly where do you think you would finish? Does Dead Last ring any bells? You are talking about the best of the best here. Add to that that they are among the best builders, is kind of like you challenging the Redskins to a sand lot football game with you and 10 of your busd. You are still going to get your clock cleaned. You can download the Top Gun rule book on line and check and see what is allowed and what is not. You should still attend at least once in your life. It is truly a humbling experience. I don't care if you have won every scale contest at Podunk R/C Flying club, you ain't gonna believe what you will see at the Top Gun. It is somthing that you will remember for the rest of your life. Oh, by the way, the competitors are as nice as they can be. Not a snob in the bunch.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

ps....The difference between first and third place at this year's Top Gun was measured in thousands of a point. Not even a full point. That should tell you of the caliber of plane and pilot in attendance.

Hornplayer99, do you have an actual name?

There are NO ARF planes allowed at Top Gun. However you may take an ARC or strip a model and refinish it in scale Military markings. The ARC aircraft MUST be cleared by Frank Tiano or an official to compete In Pro-Am since there is a no builder rule.

Since it seems like my Airworld FW 190A has been the focus plane regarding ARF's at Top Gun, I would like to clarify some facts about the FW that I have campaigned over the last two years. My entry over the last two years have been in PRO AM ONLY. The FW was built by Airworld entirely. I did not even paint it! My involvement was adding some weathering while I was at Top Gun when the plane arrived from California. I guess that info is really going to knock you off your chair. Lucky for me Top Gun rules allow builders and pilots to compete at the same event. Your comment that the Airworld kits are ARF's are totally wrong. Have you ever built a composite kit? Did you know that most AW kits do not come with instructions? The Airworld kits arrive as a shell only, hardly an ARF. The ARF of todays standards arrive painted, retracts installed, control horns and pushrods installed and not to mention the servo slots precut for your servos. I would love for you or anyone to open the box to an Airworld kit while holding a bottle of ZAP glue with high hopes that within 45 minutes you will have a flying model let alone a competition airplane. Top Gun IS the best Scale event in the world and has many entry categories to fill everones desires. I have won Team Scale three times since 1992 without even building the aircraft. You see I have entered every competition since 1992 as a pilot. If you do not want to see a (modified) ARF competing in Pro Am then you might want to view the Expert, Designer or Team Scale category only. It sounds like you have a passion for Scale aircraft which is awesome to hear! I look forward meeting you in person one day perhaps at Top Gun.

Dino,

I'll be seeing you in Lakeland the last of April. I look forward to seeing all the guys (even if with most of them, it's for only 15 minutes or so)

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

a question i have been wanting to ask pertaining to the arf for competition rule is, can you go too far and it no longer be able to compete in a.r.f.? i'm building a skyshark p-40 because i needed an "N" to use. but i have done a total rebuild of the plane to fix alot of the off scale things and to scale it as i would if i built it. heres a list so far

the rudder re-built to scale, including the trim tab, fairing, and rivets under the fabric.
both elevators re-shaped, trim tabs, rivet detail and re-covered in fabric.
sheeted horizontal stab
sheeted wing
wheel well detail
ailerons rebuilt to scale
trashed the flaps and built scale split flaps
sliding canopy and cockpit
re-shaped tailwheel opening and doors
hidden all the linkages
filled the panel lines and rivets and re-primed the fuse, panel lines too wide and not good looking at all from factory
adding all the lights and bomb drops (dino the lens set looks great and easy to work with) thank's for the help and christmas card!

since i don't know the arf rule, will this still qualify?
i race boats (the real thing) so i only have a few months a year to build an airplane so arf's work out good for me because of my time issues. i do plan to go to some event this year but i have no idea how to enter this plane. so someone who is involved in this tell me have i gone too far? thank's guy's jeff.

Hey Jeff!

I really cannot answer this question as it sounds like an answer for those who compete at the Scale Masters or wherever ARF's are allowed. I have not competed at such events. I would also be out of place if I said the work that you are doing would qualify for Top Gun for Pro-am however, a Top Gun official could.

I dont know how I MISSED THIS THREAD. All I can say is thatthis is a question that would not be well received over on the jet threads.We all need to agree what is the definition of an ARF. Once the level of prefabrication has been determined either by the CD or the AMA rule book then what is left will be is how they will or wont be penalized. Top Gun has expanded the ranks of competitors to include arfs and past planes to keep interest in the event growing...face it new blood is needed and this is probably the only way to do it. To think also that Top Gun would heavily penalize hi dollar prefabs would be cutting the throat of some of his major competitors and sponsors(BVM). I am sure that some past winners of Top Gun havent always been the builder of their kits but what proof does anybody have or is willing to bring forth.When does this stop being a hobby and start becoming a pain in the ARSE? Top Gun is the"Special Olympics" of the scale hobby. They have their own rules , tricks and foibles that you wont see down at the local level but it has served a purpose in the hobby....it has injected some needed enthusiasm into the hobby. I have asked this same question in the past . Here on RCU and in some of the magazines. Only in RCReport were they brave enuff to respond in print but they took the safe way out. So what do we hope to accomplish with this thread? make change or noise? AS far as I can see, right now its noise........ Just enjoy the beautiful planes and keep it a hobby and it will always be a world we will continue to escape to and not from. Just my .02 worth

Scale contests? Define 'scale contests'. In our local derby held by the state scale association we static judge models built by the competitors once at the start of the year & then fly 4 flying rounds so the static score = 20% of the years score. ARF's are welcome to fly in every round & can win the flying round but are not eligable for the one that really counts, the total score at the end of the year.

At our recent state championships we flew F4C scale & stand off scale, both of these you had to qualify as builder of the model. We also have introduced 'team scale'. No static judging but a flying only contest. What's a team? The pilot flys the model & it can be built by anyone else, even a 'little old lady in China for the equivalent of .15 cents per hour'.

Isn't Top Gun a privately run contest? If so it's up to the organiser to make up whatever rules he feels like. - John.

Top Gun is, in fact a privately run event. On top of that, it is an invitational event, which simply stated means you must be invited to bring your plane and compete. It is run under the rules and the blessing of the AMA, as a special classification event. The rules are in place, and there have been some significant changes for the 2008 event. The rule book is available for downloading from the Top Gun site. The rule book was published this year (I think in July).

Yes, the composite airplanes do draw a points penalty in static judging. If the wings are composite as well, the points penalty is increased. But, that still has not stopped some of the composite jets from winning the event. It just levels the playing field.

Here are some Composite planes that were at Top Gun this year. Call them what you wish, they still are not an ARF. There are no pre built sub assemblies, and that is what defines an ARF.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

that would be a great definition of an arf...any prebuilt sub assemblies or skins that include panel lines, rivets, hatches etc would be considered an ARF........if they are considered in the judging scores. Boy that would probably include canopies and cowls.....wow or should we exclude those

I think that you are taking the ARF thing too far. To me, and ARF is a mostly pre-built model, where the owner only has to assemble these pre-built sub assemblies. The fuselage is framed, and covered, the wings are built and covered, the tail group is built and covered, requiring only the assembly of these parts. Composite models, on the other hand, only have the surface detail moulded in. There normally is no assembly performed on the fuselage (the formers are not installed, nor is there any engine mounting sub assemblies installed. There is a vast difference between a glass fuselage and an ARF. The models that I used for illustration from Top Gun 2007 are as far removed from an ARF as you can imagine, and you can't rationalize the statement that these should be considered ARF's.

I previously stated that these composite models do suffer a points deduction at Top Gun. This is a factual statement. They must overcome these deductions by superb flying in order to win. What is so difficult to understand about that statement? These planes are the absolute best models that you will ever find. Comparing them to what you see at some Podunk meet is like comparing the Mona Lisa to the offerings from an Elementary School art class. This is a different level of modelling. They are the best in the world, and as such they are in a world of their own.

You guys should really try your best to attend at least one Top Gun event. You will come away with your head spinning, A word of warning is appropriate here. Caution, Top Gun is addictive. You will want to return.

Here are a few more pics.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

Per RAM-bro:
"So what do we hope to accomplish with this thread? make change or noise? AS far as I can see, right now its noise........ Just enjoy the beautiful planes and keep it a hobby and it will always be a world we will continue to escape to and not from. Just my .02 worth"

Had I really wanted to cause a "Ruckus", I would have posted this thread in the ARF topic. I posted it here, as here it makes sense to do so, as the people here are mostly builders of model airplanes. Previous to this thread I had literally no knowledge of the "composite" type of kit. I have limited funds to devote to the hobby and focuse my interest on building the traditional methods I've been using since I started building model airplanes a long time ago. Whether, the "Composite" type of R/C aircraft is an ARF or kit, is beyond my knowledge and it appears the answer to this question is well descibed elsewhere.

I'm saddened by the fact that "building" R/C airplanes has taken such a back seat to ARFs! I am hoping this will change. I would like to see one venue where building is a must to participate, even though I don't compete. So, yes what I'm doing, is to an extent "NOISE"!

The "noise" is interesting to read different individuals opinions as to where we are and where we could be going in to the future. I still love to build but I have some arf's too. I think they can all co-exist. My biggest fear is that there are not enough young modelers that are really builders coming in behind us older fella's.

Hey all,
Can I kick in here? I thought that perhaps getting some info from the "Horse's Mouth" so to speak might shed a little light on this thread. Let's see, in no particular order, here are some facts. Scale Model "Builders" are a dieing breed. Fact is, the average age of a "builder" has risen to a mighty 55 years old, results gained from years of data from Top Gun and Florida Jets. As the older guys retire and move to a condo, they haveno more buildoing space, so they assemble ARFs.Or, as they get older their eyesight and dexterity wanes, so they stop using an Xacto and switch over to ARFs where they don't have to use many tools. Worst of all is that as the older modelers fade away, we have very fewyoung "builders" to take their place.
As far as Top Gun, we DO NOT allow ARFs in any class except Pro-Am, which is another word for FUN SCALE, and then, ONLY if the entire airframe has been painted, finished etc. by the modeler. NO Stock ARFs are allowed. Now, let's define an ARF by Top Gun standards. An ARF is a model that is fully constructed, but not assembled. Is is completely Painted as well. The only duties for the builder is that he must install radio, engine, linkages and fly. A competition worthy BVM F-100, by example, takes a minimum of 300 hours to build, an AirWorld FW-190 takes about 200 hours to complete to the degree of the one that Dino flew at TG in the past. These might be called Almost Ready to Fly, but believe me they are certainly NOT!! The builder still must cut parts to fit, do considerable sanding and filling, apply rivets in areas that were not in the preformed skins , prime and paint. Give 10 different guys a BVM F-100 and 6 months to build it, and you'll fine out something. One, they will all have differeent degrees of Perfection, and 2, some of them won't be done in time!
Next, some misconceptions that should be cleared up. First, there is NO Document that must be signed that states the modeler built the model himself. At any AMA event, only a safety declaration is signed. The Builder of the Model rule is implied, but not signed.
One last thought. TIME is NOT something that is judged, or rewarded for. Whether the modeler took 4 hours to do something or 4 minutes is no concern to any judge. The "Effect" of what he has done is all that counts. Models with Composite parts do have great skin texture but that's where it stops. The builder still has to massage the seams, fill the voids, add the bulkheads, landing gear mounts, scale details beyond the stock kit and a host of other chores. But that particular modeler chooses how far to take the project. He is NOT rewarded for it or penalized for lack of it. BUT, the final score may reflect some relationship to the amount of detail he has performed. At TG, we also award a maximum of 10 points for "Realism" in the Static Score, meaning, does the model resemble the full scale counterpart, or does it look like a plastic model airplane?
Anyway, that's the details. I'm happy to answer any legitimate questions, but keep in mind that when somebody said that TG is a "private" venture, they were correct. It has its own Rule Book and standards. If someone gets an invitation but disapproves of the rules, he simply declines to participate. Just like ANY other sport! Rules are Rules. Don't like them, start another event that uses different rules. That's what I did!
As always, thanks for the opportunity to speak.
FT

Thanks Frank,

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

Start a 51% rule like there is in full scale home built aircraft. What else can you do without making this more complex then the space shuttle? The plane gets judged on its appearence and scale outline and details. The contestant must show photo proof that 51% of the work necessary to get the plane in its finished state was done by him/her. Now, what constitutes 51% ? That would depend on how much of the plane was "built" when it came out of the box, and what details were added that were not part of the original manufacture. I love to build, and it's a dying art, but there are just too many arf's out there to ignore them, there has to be a way to let them compete without taking anything away from what scale competition was meant to be. Many young guys today can't build, and that's a real shame, but the young guys are the future of the hobby and competition.

Ken

Hi Guys,

I have read the thread and want to post my 2 cents worth. It won't be popular.

In NO WAY should ARF's be allowed to compete at any major contest in any form. I define an ARF as any plane taken out of a box that is covered with monokote or film of some sort. I do not want to travel half way across the country to see an ARF fly. I can do that at my local field any day of the week. Just imagine you are looking at a 24 hour drive home on a Sunday afternoon....and having to wait on 4 or 5 ARF's to fly before it's your turn, quite frankly its enough to make you want to stay home next time.

Hope my opinion is clear.
Ed Newman

There are some here who seem think the composite planes, (Comp ARF, Airworld, SisT) just fall out of the box & fly. These threads may give you a little more insight into just what is involved in the building of these models:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_6531187/tm.htm
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_2009965/tm.htm

All,
I find this thread very sad, but interesting

From the posting, I find the contest rules bizarre at best. I am currently building a scale aircraft & if I was to entered the finished product in a competition & I was penalized for building it out of composite I would be very saddened.

If one purchased aircraft parts from someone else who made the moulds, yes I can see the point of being penalized, but to penalize the scratch builder for his own work Hmmm…

I enjoy building with my hands and that is enough gratification, If I was to enter my work in a contest & I lost to an ARF then my craftsmanship is not the same level as the ARF

Contests are subjective events, so easily corrupted by the fancy of the person judging.

If the contest is a privately owned/sponsored event then the corruption can further manifest itself into cancer Oops… am I taking part in a corrupted event or an event that does not share my same values?

If the event rules are the issue, what are the rules/processes governing changing of the rules of the event, do you have a voice?

I would hope your events are structured in such a way that corruption would be mitigated/not manifest itself.

Again, the question I have is WHICH 51%? Most ARFs have non-scale lines and no detail or scale finish and may take a lot of work to address these issues to make a competitive scale model. Traditional Kits (Short from plans or full) may have good outlines, but again, all detail and finish must be done by the builder, in addition to the construction. Composite kits, in some ways are the exact opposite of of an ARF in that with many, virtually all the scale and detail is done out of the box, except for finish, but none of the construction is done. The amount of work needed to complete one may be as much, or even more than framing up a kit. But being a scale competition where the static score is judges the outline and detail against the provided documentation, is it fair to equate the time spent on general construction to time spent on researching, designing and implementing modifications to kits or even ARFs to be true to scale and to add all the detail, panel lines, hatches, rivets, surface textures and so forth?
As for someone who builds a model from scratch using composites (creates their own plugs, molds and pulls their own parts), to me, that's a different story. It's not the material the model is made from, but who has done what work. In this case, all the work has been done by the builder and I don't think any points should be deducted.

Now all of this has to be put into the context of which category we are speaking of. I think many, as even I did when I started reading this thread, are assuming we are talking about expert. I do think the introduction of new classes to encourage more participation is important to the continuation and growth of interest in scale.

This is getting a little off track for this thread but IMHO, the AMA rules should be the guide for all scale contests in the U.S. Everyone has them or can get them easily from the AMA. If you don't like a rule or want to add/change one you have the opportunity as an AMA member to submit a rule change proposal. I know this will never happen because of obvious reasons but wouldn't it be great if all contests were ran with the same rules? Judging will always be subjective and in some cases political. In the past when I feel the judging is not consistent or too political I simply do not attend any longer.