Ok Here goes. I have a G-45 up front run 20 X 10 prop weight 24lbs. Balanced at rib 5 5.25 from le. On T/O need full down trim on elev and she takes off perfectly no rudder correction needed. and she flys nice too.
Problem landings!! If I keep the trim down I run out of elev and we break props and bend gear! We dont want to do that so I tried on the downwind side as soon as I drop the gear to go to full up trim and imm. drop the flaps. Plane lands fine this way. I have never had to change trim settings on the .60 bolt so whats wrong?

If the elevator is centered, and the elevator servos are centered, it sounds like a tail heavy condition... We had the same problem with a Yellow P-47.. took so much down trim, it ran out of elevator on final, and cleaned the gear from the wing...We moved the CGabout a half inch forward, added nose weight to compensate, and it flew fine...Just my suggestions

I have read this about a dozen times and I am trying hard to understand your problem. If I understand you correctly, you need full down elevator trim during your takeoff run???. During takeoffs one usually finds that they have to hold the tail down with up elevator until flying speed is reached because the power to weight ratio is so skewed in favor of power. It sounds like you have to force the tail up. If this is the case then it sounds like you are tail heavy, but you mention that the plane flys nice, so that can't be it. How does it fly hands off, straight and level??? Do you have to change elevator trim after takeoff?

In addition to the above, it does not make sense to me that you go to full up trim on the elevator and drop flaps. Usually, when flaps are deployed the plane pitches up slightly thus the need for down elevator.

After studying this, it seems to me that your wing incidents, tail incidents or both are out of sync with each other. []

yes hands off straight and level with full down trim. I run out of elev on flair unless I go to up trim. I can T/O with trim lever centered and she does fine. On balance I balanced inverted with gear up and got her slightly nose down attitude. I could add a little more lead and see it couldnt hurt to try but its not snappy at all the way it is. All incidences are correct per plans so I too believe I have a slight tail heavy condition. Cant fly tommorow anyway no prop and LHS closed so I will look at the balance again. At full power with neutral elevator it shouldnt climb out of sight but that is what is happening.
Come to think about it she act controllable but a little sluggish so sounds like a tail heavy condition. Any more input appreciated. This is a strange problem for me. My pica p-40 flys perfect and I thought the bolt would be easier well shes not so something is wrong

oh I forgot I have down elev mixed with flap about 10%

I relooked at the balance and with gear retracted it balances level not nose down. I wonder if a little morer nose weight would be in order. a tail heavy condition would explain why i need full down trim to fly level. The engine is mounted correctly so I have no thrust problems there. On a big warbird would 8 OZ lead make that much of a difference. If I could fly level at neutral elev trim I would most likley be OK.
Any input????

Thanks
Tim

I don't have the P47 but at times I was wiping the gear off my TF mustang on the flair, then I spent a coupel of afternoon on the OSH flight line watching the wabirds land, almost 90% where landing on the mains first with power, cutting power and then the tail drops.

Now I drop the flaps, grove into the descent angle and fly to the ground with power on onto the mains, just enough up to lift the nose up a touch just before the mains touch down,
no flair to a 3 point landing for me any more.

Since I adopted this approach, I must have over a 100 landings with out pooching one.
Maybe this will help.
-ken

ps. - I'm about at this angle when the mains touch, it rolls out some.
.

The problem I described on the YA-47...the indicated CG was just not correct for that plane...We moved it forward one half inch, added weight to compensate, and it flew like it should with only a Quadra 42. I, too, have a GS TF P-47, around 22+ #s, with a G-45..With a 1900ma 6 V battery over the tank, it balanced to the plan, and the throws set slightly above plan recommendations... A beautiful handling plane, even when not using the big flaps.. the trick is to keep about 1/3rd power, and FLY the plane to the numbers.., flare, and let it sink on the mains, the big cowl, prop, LG, and flaps will slow it down quickly with the nose up, as speed drops off, the TW will come down.... when three pointing, this heavy plane will still give the LG and TW a pretty sizable rap when it drops....

I have very similar combo. In reading your replies to some of the suggestions I am reminded of the way several of the TF p-51s
have had trouble landing, that is, running out of elevator on touch down. Here is my suggestion. Remove the down elevator trim mixed into the flaps, rethink your approach to the end of the runway as you set up to land. Here is what I do(after watching several of the best flyers land their P-47s) I come into my final with the 47 at about 200' to 250' altitude and about the same distance out. Here's the tough part. Throttle right back and let the plane fall naturally into what appears to be a very steep landing approach. You will find that the combination of drag and the flaps will allow the plane to come down steeply but completely under control, as a matter of fact, you will be amazed at how controlable it will be. You will see that there is an angle where the rate of descent balances the drag, As you near the runway apply up elevator to flair and cut your power completely, The plane will take a natural attitude and bleed off airspeed allowing a nice slow landing to be made. I know this sounds crazy but once you get the hang of it you will never land your 47 the other way. Those TF-P51 flyers I mentioned before all have gone over to this style of landing and have been amazed at how easy it is to land this way once you get over the thought of your plane landing out of such a steep approach. My TF-P-47 lands like a Sig Kadet with this method and I get a real kick out of other pilots who have never seen this method yelling that I'm way to high on final. Works the same with my TF-Corsair also. I first saw a pilot land this way at a warbirds event 3 years ago. He was flying a 75lb!!! Seafury with a 3w 250 engine and used this method to land from around 400' altitude on to a 400' foot runway and used about 150' of the runway. Try it, It really works. By the way, I also have a 60 size TF P-47. Doesnt fly anything like the GS so don't expect things to carry over.
Larry

thank Larry ill try it! All i have to do is turn off the mix with a switch I also turned out my clevises 3 turns each side. I can fly with down elevator it doesnt bother me but when I run out of elev. It is a helpless feeling . Im lucky in the 10 flights ivbe had no damage other than prop! I am buying three tomorrow 20X10.
Are you saying cut power to idle that fasr out or 1/3. Let me know I will try to fly this week. Im a teacher and we have meetings all week telling us how to teach.

any other opinions

Hmmmm, is it not true that when you trim down and leave it there that you lose that much upward travel ? Of course you will not have as much up throw in your elevator as you had with the trim neutral.

Now, combine this with flaps deployed which make the horizontal stab work harder (including the elevator) to keep the nose up. Yes that's right, nose up, the ballooning you get when the flaps are deployed is the initial increase in lift at a higher airspeed. As that speed bleeds off and you reduce throttle, the flap drag increases.

The change in the airfoil shape from the flaps causes the plane to take a nose down attitude. Now, since it wants to fly nose down at a lower angle of attack, you compensate with more elevator to keep it up. As you come into land you will be using more elevator and as speed bleeds further, you will come in with more elevator to flare. If you do not have enough elevator travel you will not be able to pull the nose up fully to flare. A nose heavy plane will exagerate this.

Now, the other thing is what the other guys are saying, go for wheel landings. You may also be experiencing elevator blanking. If all seems to be going fine with the landing, airspeed is right, glide slope correct, just about the time you go to flare, the elevator seems to just disappear ? That is elevator blanking and you end up with a hard nose drop. In this case you need more speed and a little less flap. The guys are right about wheel landings, forget the three pointers, leave that to the 3D and cub guys.

The nose down trim sounds more like incidence or thrust than balance, especially when you say that the plane is sluggish. I had a Hanger 9 60 size with an os120 that flew like this, I had it down to five clicks of trim change between full throttle and landing. I think H9 set the incidence to allow the plane to fly well with a poverty 60, but when you put bigger power in it the higher speeds would make it climb.

S1

I usually cut the throttle right back to idle and push some down to start the nose down. It's hard to describe the correct angle of descent but you get to a point where the thing is balanced and it doesn't feel like it's coming down like a runnaway freight train. The only caution I will give you is to not pull up the flaps if you have to go around until you have built up some airspeed. If you pull up the flaps in the dive you will pile right in. The plane is flying almost like a dive bomber with the speed brakes out. The other thing is to ignore all the bystanders telling you your too steep on the approach! Make sure you have the elevator throw set to the numbers TF recommends and everything should be fine. I have found trying to land the big 47 like the small one gives exactlly the problem you describe. They are definately not birds of a feather.Larry

Must be a TF thing as my Vailly does not have any weird vices. Very straight forward flyer.

I use the steep approach only in windy conditions with 1/2 flap setting. This allows this plane to penetrate any threshold turbulence. I do keep a bit of power on though, once over the threshold I cut back to a click above idle and let the flaps do their job till touchdown. regular non windy days it's 3/4 flap, shallow glide path and throttle it in.

I have never experienced any elevator blanking on this plane, but that's not to say the TF doesn't suffer from it.

Is the down trim at high speeds a TF P-47 characteristic ?

My Vailly hardly changes pitch at all, even when the flaps come down. My wingloading is probably higher which would explain that.

S1

TT, Kenair has it right. Come in with power and a nice steady glide slope. Thats how the real ones do it. Use the throttle to correct the glide slope not the elevator. Use elevator just at the flair and wheel it on. You can do this with all your planes and you will discover that you will quit having those brief hops back into the air caused by high angle of attack. DWR

two more flights and much better landings! put a new prop on a 20X10 . i also set the trim lever at neutral and it took of by itself as I was advancing throttle past half. Perfectly straight! landing was good i put down full flap on base turned on to final and cut power to idle it really fell out of sky but fully controlled! at the flair i added a touch of power and pulled back to a wheels landing. I tried a 3 point and had to go around im not messing around with those any more.