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Newbie here, how does it all work?

Old 03-06-2005, 05:33 PM
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Default Newbie here, how does it all work?

Hello everybody,

I've been modelling for quite a while now, and I'm currently making a WWII German U-boat with a working deckgun. The question I ask is how could I make the gun fire BBs? Should you design a spring loaded system or use compressed air? Also, how could I get involved in participating in an event like warship battle? Are there any special clubs in North America?

Thanks for any help!
Old 03-07-2005, 10:16 PM
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Default RE: Newbie here, how does it all work?

The simple solution for a BB caliber gun is one form [link=http://www.swampworks.com]swampworks[/link] or [link=http://www.battlersconnection.com]Battlers Connection)[/link] .

If you want a little nicer gun, and want rotation, you might consider going 3/16" and getting a gun from the [link=http://www.users.qwest.net/~rcwarship/weapons.html]Model Armory[/link].

All of these use co2, and require a regulator. Several nice ones are available form Palmer Pursuit (paintball hardware). For wiring these there are lots of sources of information. You might want to start with [link=http://www.ntxbg.org]The North Texas Battle Group[/link], as we have some tips you might want to see, and links to other groups for further information.

Good luck, and welcome to the obsession. Remember, though, that the guns are dangerous and can and do create damage. Always wear safety glasses, and have anyone in the area don them as well.

Wreno
NTXBG
Old 03-08-2005, 01:04 PM
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Default RE: Newbie here, how does it all work?

Welcome to the boards,

Wren thanks for perking up this section. It is very difficult to get combat modelers to post on the bulletin boards. We have been trying for a couple of years to keep another board active
http://www.microrccenter.com/forum/i...p?showforum=26
A few of us check in here occasionally, and will certainly post a bit more once the season gets started.

Captain Nemo12,
The closest active club we have located for Monteal is next door.

http://groups.msn.com/OAF/home.htm

Let us know if you find a group closer to you.

We had a couple of M1 submarines in our club, and there was not a centimeter to spare inside the boats. Getting all the necessary equipment in your project will be a challenge.
Good luck with your submarine project. Post some pictures as you build.
Old 03-08-2005, 02:17 PM
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Default RE: Newbie here, how does it all work?

Umi,

Thanks for the heads' up on the other forum. Mostly, we monitor the [link=http://IRWCC <[email protected]>]IRWCC <[email protected]>[/link] or the [link=http://[email protected]][email protected][/link] lists. Since I happen to be of the 1/144 Big Gun ilk, I usually monitor the latter. Just thought I'd see what was going on over here and see if I could help anyone.

As for space in a sub for a fire control system - you are right. I only know of one who did it in 1/144, and he claims it was not effective/worth the effort. Subs sound like a good idea in battle, until you realize that, if the enemy can't see your boat, neither can you.

Cheers,

Wreno
Old 03-08-2005, 06:24 PM
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Default RE: Newbie here, how does it all work?

Thanks guys, I will check the sites you've suggested. Yes I agree, with all the room taken inside the sub, fitting a deck gun mechanism will be a challenge (but hey! I like challenges!)
You can see your sub underwater, but you have to surface in order to fire your weapons (deck gun in this case) unless you can come up with a torpedo exploding mechanism (not sure if this is allowed in the rules), kinda unfair when you think of it... oh well, welcome to the world of submarine warfare!
Old 03-08-2005, 09:35 PM
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Default RE: Newbie here, how does it all work?

Wreno,

I try to keep links to all the active clubs at the other forum. If you see any missing let me know, and I will add them, or feel free to sign up, and add the links yourself. We have to temper the conversation at the Micro forum, because there are a lot of young people running cars. But the site owner has been very gracious with the bandwidth and storage space, so we have "kept on" there.

I suddenly remembered that we have another small type VII I believe. It has been tested, but not seen any actual combat. And you can view a typical air gun schematic here Cpt Nemo12
http://www.nwlink.com/~pfleming/Images/BasicGun.JPG

Here are a couple photos of the sub.
And i managed to find a small image of a torpedo test. Torpedos are just 2" long x 1/4" aluminum rods.
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Old 03-09-2005, 12:54 PM
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Default RE: Newbie here, how does it all work?

Nice, I am trying to fit torpedoes into my sub as well, you can check the thread I've started in the submarine forum (Pen Tube Torpedoes? Possible!). I doubt you'll be able to sink a ship with a model torpedo, you can develop a detonating system that will allow it to explode under the ship's hull, it might cause damage to thinner hulled ships. You can always try ramming, the u-boat has a nice net cutter in the bow, or you can try Captain Nemo's method, the Nautilus!
Old 03-09-2005, 01:44 PM
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Default RE: Newbie here, how does it all work?


ORIGINAL: Captain Nemo12

Nice, I am trying to fit torpedoes into my sub as well, you can check the thread I've started in the submarine forum (Pen Tube Torpedoes? Possible!). I doubt you'll be able to sink a ship with a model torpedo, you can develop a detonating system that will allow it to explode under the ship's hull, it might cause damage to thinner hulled ships. You can always try ramming, the u-boat has a nice net cutter in the bow, or you can try Captain Nemo's method, the Nautilus!
We have a whole discussion about just this(and it is old) on the other forum.
Essentially, and as Wreno said, explosive pyrotechnics are forbidden.
http://www.microrccenter.com/forum/i...80&hl=torpedos
http://www.microrccenter.com/forum/i...59&hl=torpedos
http://www.microrccenter.com/forum/i...71&hl=torpedos

We also tried ramming rules. Essentially, if you chase anything long enough, someone will run out of pond, and you can ram the ship/submarine. No one would actually need skill or air guns. The hedge hog anti submarine weapons pretty much devastated our submarine campagns. The DD skipper with a hedge hog launcher could lob about 10 rounds straight up over the pond, and drop them inside a "hula hoop". Close enough to referee a sink. The submarines would be "Called" sunk three or four times in a 20 minute sortie. No fun for the sub captains.

Another reason we stopped using the submarines, was that as one of the M-1s surfaced, it took a shot at a DD, and the round went up to the top of the hill and took out a windshield. Not really safe in our view. Still it was one of the best engineered projects in our club. And very unique to this day.

(oh, and Wreno,... http://www.microrccenter.com/forum/i...howtopic=30099
...............check it out, free till at least August...)
Old 03-09-2005, 04:10 PM
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Default RE: Newbie here, how does it all work?

Hm... no fun for the sub caps indeed but what caused the subs to sink? I read on the OAF website that their ships are made with thin balsa wood so that the BBs have a chance of going through the hull, a fair chance of sinking for everybody. What are the subs' hulls made of? Regular material like fiberglass, vacuum formed plastic, wood, or else? With underwater pressure, a small hole blasted by a weapon will probably cause a disturbance in the pressure equilibrium inside the hull. Assuming that a sub is dryhull, this would probably cause it to sink. But if it was a wet hull, with electronics stored inside the WTC (Water Tight Cylinder) a BB or something like that would have to have the energy to go through solid plastic.
Old 03-10-2005, 04:01 PM
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Default RE: Newbie here, how does it all work?

All combat ships have a fiberglass hull 1/2" below the waterline. Above that, builders are restricted to Balsa with thicknesses dictated by the rules. Submarines would not be much different.

All the submarine "sinkings" at that time were referee sinks. A judge made a declaration based on round proximity.
Both of the M-1s were piston bouyed, and there was no room for penetrable areas.

With a dynamic submarine, dry hull, it is possible to actually create the conditions for sinking, but we have yet to recruit the talent to produce such a boat. And the speed and dynamics of the game are not conducive enough to promote anyones interest. It is so easy to outfit a DD, that everyone takes the quick route.
Old 03-10-2005, 07:27 PM
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Default RE: Newbie here, how does it all work?

Umi,

You only have 1/2" below penetrable? We give a full 1" below the waterline as penetrable in the NTXBG (unless the hull curves more than 45 degrees inward, then you can stop being penetrable). With only 1/2", my little 22" tramp steamer would be virtually untoucheable - since the waterline is the bottom of the caprail.

Wreno
Old 03-10-2005, 11:43 PM
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Default RE: Newbie here, how does it all work?

Let's see,...

Yup only a half inch below light ship water line.

And it hasn't stopped any one from sinking yet.
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Old 03-11-2005, 01:23 AM
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Default RE: Newbie here, how does it all work?

The lower you go the more the aboves become belows[sm=drowning.gif]. I guess the 1/2" wouldn't make that much difference[sm=lol.gif]. However, you indicated light ships. BBs the same? Or are you one of those 1/72ers?

If my Lake Shore had only 1/2" below, her total penetrable area to a side would be a little strip about 18"x1/2". Not a huge target. Currently about 18"x1" is pretty tough. But my son finds the soft spots[:@].

Wreno
Old 03-11-2005, 12:57 PM
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Default RE: Newbie here, how does it all work?

Yeah I am one of those 1/72nders....
It was the only game in town, and even then I had to Drive up to Gig Harbor, Washington every month.
Battle for two or three hours and then drive back to Portland, Oregon.

The light ship waterline is the bottom of the black, or boot line, painted around the side of the ship.
The boot lines are typically 3/8"-1" wide. So we could easily get balsa 1 1/2 inch below the water line for the larger ships. We have only launched one battleship, the club is proposing launching up to 4 this year for testing.
It almost sounds like your ship floats at the main level of the main deck. Are you talking about the weather or main deck. If that is the case, the balsa runs down from the main deck 2 1/2 inches or more down to the fiberglass bottom.

My LST went down RC tank and all with one penetration below the waterline
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Old 03-11-2005, 02:38 PM
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Default RE: Newbie here, how does it all work?

Umi,

Cool. Gotcha - light vs heavy load waterline. Makes sense now. We use a standard 1/4" boot in our club for all ships. Some guys out west have built a working LST with working ramp and all in 1:144.

We allow a 3/8" deck and caprail thickness. Being a tramp steamer, she has basically well decks. The main deck and weather deck are the same thing (except Foc'sle, Poop, and center Island) Foc'sle and Poop are non-penetrable , center Island goes form main deck. Since the top of the deck is about 3/8" above the waterline..... the only area above the waterline that is penetrable is a wedge about 1/4" or less high near the bow, tapering back 3-4 inches, due to the sweep of the deck I found out that scuppers are a really good idea. As is sealing the main decks well. My second sink was an unseaworthy sink due to water accumulating on the stern deck and seeping in very gradually, then again, then again, etc. with a pump failure.

BBs get a tad large in your scale, but I am glad you are doing some. That would be fun to see.

Wreno

Old 03-11-2005, 05:03 PM
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Default RE: Newbie here, how does it all work?

ORIGINAL: Wreno

Umi,

Cool. Gotcha - light vs heavy load waterline. Makes sense now. We use a standard 1/4" boot in our club for all ships. Some guys out west have built a working LST with working ramp and all in 1:144.

snip snip...

Wreno

Now where do you suppose those guys out west got the Idea for working LSTs...

http://www.microrccenter.com/forum/i...howtopic=28603
Old 03-11-2005, 06:56 PM
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Umi,

All due respect, since he is from the West Coast, he may have been familiar with yours, maybe not. None of us here in TX had seen yours, that I am aware of, but one of our members has been threatening one for years. Just not many 1:144 r/c tanks available to make them worthwhile (until now). He was planning on starting with the LST hull from Swampy. Does make for an interesting scenario play. Yours looks really nice, though.

Wreno
Old 03-11-2005, 10:59 PM
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Default RE: Newbie here, how does it all work?

Wreno,
Yeah, I threatened for years also. Our guru constantly scoffed at how difficult it would be. Even when I said I would finally launch one he scoffed. So, I widely publicised the successful build of my LST back in 2003. We were really proud of what we were able to acomplish. Ron ran across it and I did my best to help him with the tank search.
You can see that in the thread I linked in my last post.

Difficulties.
Tank rc range. For 2004 I refitted one of the tanks with a two channel micro reciever and (2)servo mod speed controls. For all our testing and verifying we did prior to the 2003 nationals the tank failed to be controlable out on the pond during combat. In 2004, our nationals was severly under attended, so we just played with it rather than use it in full scale combat.

Game play.
Since no one else in our club showed interest there is no competing LST. (They are, kind of, all about BB right now.)
Some of my game scenarios were;
1. A target that only a landed tank could approach and destroy.
2. A target that only a landed tank could approach and destroy, only after crossing a small bridge Naval vessels could destroy.(Tanks are spendy we didn't want them shot at.)
3. Recovery. Recover a target that only a landed tank could push back to the LST, load it on board, and bring it back to home port.
4. Island capture. Claim islands in a manner that only a landed tank can achieve. Most islands captured wins. Captured Islands may have shore batteries for current or next game. Like a micro switch to activate the guns when a tank parks against it.

Only the first game got played, and despite the claims of some club members that, "We have done it all, there is nothing new." They found our proposals only mildly entertaining.

I think it could add an entirely new dimension to the games, however I think I am the minority.

[edit]
Ron never got back to us on how succesful they were at launching this campaign last year.
So I have no Idea how any of their efforts came out.
Old 03-12-2005, 12:03 AM
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Default RE: Newbie here, how does it all work?

Umi.

Word has it, it was successful in practice runs, less so in combat. If I am recalling the scuttlebutt correctly, still working out the bugs. A couple of messages from the thread:

Rob Wood is busily modifying one of our club LSTs to have a clamshell door and a drop down ramp. For our upcoming game, we'll have an invasion scenario. The LST will have one of these tanks onboard, combat-loaded. The LST has to be escorted throughout a course while the opposition attempt to sink it. Ultimately it will end up at "Normandie" where the LST must run ashore (under concentrated fire from shore batteries -- we've got two of them -- and beach itself. The clamshell door will open and the ramp will drop, and the tank driver will have to drive off and up the beach. Cool, eh? We tried out a proof-of-concept at the last battle. At the time, the clamshell door wasn't ready yet, but the ramp dropped successfully and Rob drove the tank onto the beach. Awesome!

Ben

Just thought you guys might be interested to know that I have managed to build the operating clamshell doors and ramp for my LST for Sunday's WWCC invasion campaign game. On the bench, anyway, the doors open and close with a 4 second cycle to add a little realism, and the ramp raises to seal the tank deck against water intrusion, and lowers on chains. I can control the speed for that operation as well, having hacked a servo into a winch, using the PC board as an ESC. The RC tank rolls down the tank deck incline, onto the ramp and out of the ship as designed. The tank runs for 5 minutes and holds a charge over 30 minutes, which is more than I need for this mission.

However, I'm running out of time. I still have to install the pump, devise the ballast-shifting machinery and engineer the dual rudder system. (I may have to forego this and just go with the single rudder that it came with.)

At any rate, one way or another, the LST will be on the pond on Sunday, for good or ill. Wish me luck. (:

Rob
WWCC

Old 03-12-2005, 08:18 PM
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Default RE: Newbie here, how does it all work?

Wreno,
Are they sailing tomorrow, or is that an old message?
I couldn't follow your links to the yahoo groups for some reason. So I couldn't see the rest of the context.
Thinking about it, I recall that someone in our club is storing the "cargo ships" and both have opening bow doors. but they were never designed to land tanks. so they are missing the ramp. I may have to check around and find out their status for this season.

I am curious as to why Ron is shifting ballast. I wonder if it isn't to get the bow of the ships up on shore.

Umi
Old 03-12-2005, 11:03 PM
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Umi,

Old message (I am thinking Nov. battle). Yep, the ballast shifting was to get the bow further up the beach.

As for the links, there are two groups that I am following on the Yahoo site. Both have to be signed up for to post, perhaps to read, don't know. The one for Big Guns is called BigGunsModelWarship and is at [link=http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BigGunsModelWarship/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BigGunsModelWarship/[/link]

The other group is the Small-Gun or Fast Gun group, IRCWCC at [link=http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IRCWCC/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IRCWCC/[/link].

You can view them on the web by going to Yahoo.com, then choosing Groups, then going to the groups I listed above. The groups have pictures, files, links, etc. Lively discussions as well. We would be happy to see you there.

Wreno


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