OK,, guys I have the Extra Special with a ZDZ60 on it,, running a 23X8 prop,, trying to finish breakin,,, anyway,, The plane weighs in at 19 1/2 pounds,, I have about 47% degrees of throw on the Elevator and 45% on rudder,, (plenty on both) my 2 questions is that when I go up into a torque roll, the plane starts to torque roll so fast that I have to be so quick on the rudder and elev, it is sort of scary,, is there anyway to cure this other than feeding right aileron in,,, 2nd question,, the tail is ultra sensitive in a torque roll I have the CG set at about 3 1/2 inch back from wing tip,, I am running 60% expo on elevator and 35% expo on rudder, is this close or do I just need to dial more expo in to take the sensitivity out,, and I can't fly on high rate elevators either with 60% expo it trys to high speed stall (scary),, I have heard some guys say they just fly around on high rates, I wish I could so I wouldn't have to switch back and forth, It gets to be nerve racking when I fall out of a torque roll and have to switch to low rate elevator as it is falling,,, anyway guys any info whatsoever will help, about expo,weight, setup, anything,, thanks,, PS I have a carbon fiber wingtube and landing gear ordered just haven't received them yet, should drop the weight to 18 pounds something, that might help alittle,,

The torque roll problem is a function of using enough aileron opposite the roll to counter the amount you want countered. You did not mention the aileron deflections that you have availble, but I presume it is at least 35 degrees or more. Just be ready for it.

The "high speed stall" condition is simply using too much elevato for the amount of speed used. Too much speed and a whole bunch of elevator equates to "hang on baby!" in a heart beat. Full travels at high deflections should be reserved for lower speeds at high power settings and high angles of attack. Remember to use the rudder to offset "P" factor. Your expo amounts are well with standards. Using high rates full time takes a lot of getting used to, and has been the demise of many a plane.

Overall, I'd say just give the whole thing a lot of time and practice and it will all fall into place with the effort.

Pat

Don't be afraid to run your expo on the elevator up to -75% on high elevator. There's a fine line there where you need a quick response, but also deaden the center so you can fly out on high rate and be comfortable. One thing I just got doing on both my Edge and Extra was to remove the 1 1/4" servo arms on the elevators, and put on 1 1/8". In doing so I was able to go from 100% ATV to 120% on the 5945's /8UAFS transmitter. I find 45% on the elevators are plenty for TR's, harriers, walls, etc. The shorter arms also allowed me to raise the low rate from 30% to 35% for better resolution for IMAC flying.

Both these planes do wind up fast some times don't they?? I still get nervous when that happens, but getting better with the rudder all the time. Best thing to do is just keep the nose off line a bit and it won't wind up so fast.

I might have to try 75% on the elevator,, I wonder how many people fly around with high rates on all the time,,

I read where some of them are staying on high rates. I don't. Can't fly IMAC worth a hoot on them. I've shorted my aileron throws also. Once you get the hang of all these maneuvers, you can start using less throw. I like high rates on everything for TR'ing, harriers, elevators, flat spins, walls. Slow in close stuff, I'll use high rates on rudder/ailerons. Rolling circles, low on everything. Just learned rolling harrier circle and use high on everything. I've been dialing down the expo the last month or so. Rudder is down to 0% on low, and -30% on high. Radio setup can make a huge difference in being able to do these maneuvers. What I like, may not work for you. It really is a "feel" thing. I also use a transmitter tray. IMO it lets you use less expo by steadying your hands...... I was having trouble keeping the nose up in the rolling harriers. A guy at a fly-in suggested taking out some of the expo, and it really did help. We run 6 volts, buy the fastest servos we can, then dial in all that expo..........makes a lot of sense. The less you can run the better, but don't risk your model over it....

FYI, I use about 70% expo on elevator high rate, 55% for aileron high rate, and 35% for rudder high rate. You still have to be careful not to "overspeed" the surfaces in high rates, but you can get used to it. I don't think I would even consider remaining if high rate full time if I was to fly IMAC stuff.

thanks guys, anyone else have any input or suggestions or comments,,,

Depends on what kind of radio you fly with. When I build a new plane, I set the plane up on high rates to be all it can be. Then I set up the low rates for whatever the manufacturer recommends. I usually use about 30-50% expo on everything to start. After I fly the plane several times and get a good feel for what it needs to do the 3D stuff, I re-program the high rates to that amount. I usually find that "all it will do" is more then it can do, making it too touchy, kinda like you are experiencing. I do this by adjusting the linkages so that the radio gear still gives me maximum resolution. After I get that pretty well dialed in, then I start adjusting the low rates so that the plane will fly the IMAC sportsman sequence on low rates. Then you can fly everything on low rates except full on 3D. In my case I fly with a Futaba 9Z so after I get several (30-50) flights on the plane, I set up "conditions" for everything. I can switch from one condition to another with only one 3 position switch with the 3rd condition having any mixing I need for special situations, (flaperons, spoilerons & stuff).

I don't know if your radio will allow you to do that much but any decent computer radio will allow you to do a lot. Most people set up their linkages for all they can get and then try to compensate for too much throw with the radio instead of the linkages. Then they try to adapt to the plane and use expo to deaden the response around the middle of the sticks. That works fine until you get excited and start moving the sticks to much. When that happens you get into the area of control not affected by the expo and your plane jerks around and becomes hard to control. Try it. You may find your plane will do everything you want and be tamer too.

My Extra 260 will hover & harrier with only about 1/3 of the throw that the plane is actually capable of providing.

Well, here's my two cents:

I normally fly on high rates all the time, my expo values vary from plane to plane and I don't recall what they are for my 28% Extra. probably somewhere around 55% for elev and ail, and 35% for rud.

I will use low rate on ail to practice those 1 roll rolling circles. Ans sometimes I go to low rates on elev too if I want to fly some sequences (once in a while, have to try and fly straight)

And if the plane is Torque rolling fast, don't sweat it. It usually means that the plane is right in the sweet spot so it won't do anything bad unless you go and mess things up by giving the wrong input. Try using a throttle curve or a throttle to throttle mix to give a smoother throttle response at the power setting you need for a hover. That'll help some.

I am flying a 8103 JR and it will do abou everything,, I will try I guess about 70% expo on the elev, and see what happens,,

Like everyone says...it depends on what kind of flying you intend to do...some people only fly 3D so they don't even need "low" rates.

Tom has the throws a bit too aggressive in the manual for the 28% planes. Start with HALF of his recommended deflections and most people will be VERY HAPPY with the results.

For sequences: 1 roll every two seconds at full aileron deflection, full elevator at any speed should not have any snapping tendencies, enough rudder to slightly climb in knife edge at your "normal flying speed."

You'll find that soon this will become your "normal flying mode." I even have a lower rate setting on elevator and ailerons for making those rolling maneuvers as smooth as glass.

If you find yourself only moving the sticks 1/8" or less during the whole flight, like I did with the recommended throws, then any little twitch will show up as a bump in your flight. Try flying so you have some room for error, it will smooth out your flying a whole lot, guaranteed.

Then crank it up to whatever deflections you can get for 3D, just remember not to overspeed your surfaces! I've seen people using up to 90% expo on the rudder and 75% on the elevator and ailerons to make the plane flyable in the 3D flight mode. The nice thing about these computer radios is that it is very easy to just copy the model over to another memory slot and mess with the settings, then, through trial and error, come up with something that you really like and are comfortable flying.

Good luck, experiment, and have fun!

I use 20% expo on low rates (about 1/2" of elevator throw) and 80% on high (all the travel I can get). In a perfect world I think your set up should feel the same on high and low rates around the middle of the sticks so it flys similarly when just tooling around.

For IMAC style flying I use low rates to be steady and crank up the rates for 3D. If I am going to compete I think I'd be better off with a new program that utilizes 100%ATV on what are now my low rates and mechanically alter the set up so I could have maximum resolution . Since I alternate styles within the same flights I'll leave well enough alone for now.

John,
I find that the plane will torque roll MUCH faster as it is coming down (I think a universal phenomenon) and maybe if you add more throttle you might slow the roll. Other than that just burn fuel and it'll get easier, I'm getting an average of 4 or 5 rolls now compared to 1 or 2 at the begining of the summer.

A question for you guys...Is it just me or is there a lot of wing rock in harriers? Do I need to get into a higher alpha, add spoileron or just practice more? I can TR the plane pretty well but can't harrier it worth a damn but am able to do it with several other models.

Yep..I spent most of the summer trying to get rid of the rocking..finally one day I started messing with the ailerons and whamo no more rocking..On my Edge I have to be really fast with the corrections..almost to the point of putting the corrections in BEFORE the wing starts dipping..basically Im putting the control in ahead of time..if you wait too long then you will never stop it..I also use 85% spoilerons..cg is at 5 1/2"..

Get the nose up higher. I find that my Extra likes to be up at least 45%. The higher then nose, the more stable it is........ My Extra actually locks into the harriers better than my Edge.