Extreme Speed Prop Planes Discuss the need for speed with fast prop planes (Screamin Demon, Diamond Dust, Shrikes or any REAL sound breakin'''' plane)

Few Sig wonder ??

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Old 11-29-2003, 05:55 PM
  #1
jsn
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Default Few Sig wonder ??

I just picked up the Sig Wonder kit and I have a few? For those that have built/flown them. I really don't like the idea of the brass tube ail tork rods that came with the kit, is this something I should be concerned with or is the metal to metal contact no big deal? I also am thinking about using HS-81's for throttle and elevator, is this enough power for the elevator? Also should I go with MG's for elevator or are the nylon strong enough. I have to admit I have never used micro servos so I really have no idea what they are capable of. The CG per plans is very narrow, 2 5/16 to 2 7/16 is there really only 1/8 of an inch from nose heavy to tail heavy?? Past experience tells me I can go WAY beyond recommended CG but with such a narrow envelope on the plans I have to wonder. The control throws listed in the book seem ok for test flying but they don't give a range just 1/4 up/down for ele and 5/16 up/down for ail, is this about right for low rates? I normally set up high/low rates; with no range I’m thinking 3/8 for ele and 1/2 for ail sound about right? since I’m running a piped 25 I’m doing some mods to the air frame to help beef it up a bit with out gaining to much weight, mostly around the fuse doublers and wing dowel rods and hold down. Any suggestions for building/beefing up the frame would be welcome.

Thanks
John
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Old 11-29-2003, 06:15 PM
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Default RE: Few Sig wonder ??

Hi,

Don't be too concerned about the metal metal on the ailerons control rod.
As soon you don't install more than a .15 engine you are ok with hs81 on all controls
one of my wonder on .15 size is 4 years old with those servo (more than 400 flights)

as you can see on the following pics, wonder speed up your imagination.
I suggest you to fly your first flights with cg at forward limit and recomanded throws (hig rate), because the wonder is a bit diferent than what u fly usualy

you may want to add tri stock to glue the stab on the fuse, that's the weak point of the plane.

make your first one as per plan to feel confident with the plane and then switch to a other one with operational rudders and .25 engine

you will LOVE it

here are two of my wonders
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Old 11-29-2003, 06:24 PM
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Default RE: Few Sig wonder ??

Oh I just saw u are planing a .25 instalation
here are my tips

hs85bb on ailerons and elevetor
move the firewall backward a half hinch
reinforce the vicinity of the wing dowels
seal your ailerons and elevator hinge line
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Old 11-29-2003, 06:40 PM
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Default RE: Few Sig wonder ??

I also inform you that you are not in the good forum
the wonder isn't really an extreme speed design, too thick profile
it's fast but not extremely
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Old 11-29-2003, 07:04 PM
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Default RE: Few Sig wonder ??

Thanks for the tips and nice wonders there!

the wing dowels and hold down will be beefed up and the tri stock sounds good on the tail. I just looked at the plans and book, seems a bit weak in that area. can you tell me why 85's over 81's? by spec they look to be about the same, do the 85's have a beefier gear train/motor? I was planing on using a 425 on ail, is the 85 really enough? after looking at the plans moving back the firewall to help with CG will be easy but dam there's already very little room for the tank, will a 4oz still fit? since I'm using a long pipe the muffler weight will be spread out along the fuse and not all right at the nose maybe i can get away with leaving the fire wall per plan. I already had the .25, it was a toss up between the Shrike and wonder to put it in. I really don't want another little motor laying around so i'll stick with the 25, it may be a hand full at first but what the hell.Ill set the CG and throws by the book, and i always seal my hinge lines.

thanks salmonbug
john
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Old 11-29-2003, 07:07 PM
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Default RE: Few Sig wonder ??

yeah i though about weather this was the right forum or not, when i searched RCU most of the posts were in here. I'm reall not looking for EXTREME speed just a little bit
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Old 11-29-2003, 07:15 PM
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Default RE: Few Sig wonder ??

dubro 4OZ will fit nicely either with the firewall backward, just tilt it a bit to clear the wing
if you don't move the firewall backward, watch out to not make the nose too long due to the .25 engine, the short tail moment of the plane could reserve you some surprise during the flair.

the 85BB is ball bearing and a little bit more torque than the 81

of course other servo will fly this plane, but I can only tell you what work for me.
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Old 11-29-2003, 07:34 PM
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Default RE: Few Sig wonder ??

Thanks again for the help,

I was thinking moving back the fire wall was only to help with CG, i didn't even think about the nose moment, makes sense. I also made the mistake of think the HS-81 was BB, the 85's will be what I'll use. since the 85 worked for you on Ail I'll give it a try, might as well save the oz of weight. I really don't know much about micro servos, seemed to me the ail's would be to much for the tiny servo that's why i was thinking of using the 425.

John
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Old 11-29-2003, 07:44 PM
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Default RE: Few Sig wonder ??

one more building tip

this may look stupid, but my experience building a dozen of wonder showed me that it's not very easy to perfectly align the wing perpendicular to the fuse. the fuse is so short that usual references doesn't work well, be careful when you drill the holes, thrust me
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Old 11-30-2003, 02:34 AM
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Default RE: Few Sig wonder ??

SIG WONDER MODIFICATIONS

1) Replace ¼ x ¼ balsa L.E. stock with 3/16 x 3/16 spruce. AND Do not trim 3" L.E. Sheeting to 2-3/4 per instructions the sheeting will go from the main spars over the top of the spruce L.E. in #1. Easier to do than the butt joint the plans call for

2A) Optional front wing bolt, add balsa block between center two ribs for 10-32 nylon screw to go through and a crossbrace in fuse to tap for front wing hold down.

2B) add tri stock to re-enforce F2 if wing dowels are to be used per plans.

3) Notch the 2 center ribs to accept ¼ x ¼ spruce stock for servo mounting rails these will be underneath the center section wing sheeting , giving the screws more wood to go through. I used HS-425BB servo for the ailerons

4) Add ½ triangle stock under wing mounting blocks. (when using a .25 engine)

5) Notch the trailing edge balsa stock where the torque rods will be before gluing into place, this saves carving time later at installation.

6) Omit servo access hatch on bottom of fuse, strengthen fuse aft of F4 with ¼ triangle
stock. Read #7 for servo access.

7) Do not glue the Stab to the fuselage! Bolt the stab to the wing mounting blocks, 6-32 nylon screws, yes there is plenty of space. Add rear mount screw block to fuse for the stab 3/8 x ¼ hard wood will do and use a 6-32 nylon screw here too.

8) Before gluing doublers and formers to the fuselage sides, layout and cut ¼" x ¼" holes through fuse sides under stab for elevator & throttle servo mounting rails (spruce). I used HS-80 or HS -85 mirco servos by Hitec. .

9) Add ¼ triangle stock in fin/stab corner, fins tend to get knocked off.

10) Install fuel tank just in front of F3 to minimize pitch change as fuel is consumed. Print shows it up by the firewall.
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Old 11-30-2003, 05:59 AM
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Default RE: Few Sig wonder ??

did you already encountered any structural failure that you made those mods?
me with .25 engines, never. so I build in order to keep it light.
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Old 11-30-2003, 03:23 PM
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Default RE: Few Sig wonder ??

Quote:
ORIGINAL: SALMONBUG

did you already encountered any structural failure that you made those mods?
me with .25 engines, never. so I build in order to keep it light.
with a .15 or .25fp the kit is fine, but i like the bolt on stab to access throttle and elevator servos, delete the hatch and fuse is stronger the spruce LE just make the wing sheeting process fast and easy F2 is the only weak point add a littl tri stock to keep it in just like I mentioned for the wing blocks.

I built one with two OS.15 FPs on the wing next up a OS.25FX and a PIPE

the Wonder is a great kit! more value than the shrike which has no hardware in the kit.

picture from a trip to Fla for top gun and flying with the NERDS from Modelnet on compuserve I left the stabs for both pplanes behind and mad new ones in JJ's garage!
the red one OS.25fp with .40FP carb the green one 2-OS.15FP
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Old 11-30-2003, 03:43 PM
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Default RE: Few Sig wonder ??

happy to see that other than me experimented the wonder twin, we have diferent opinions about how should be build a wonder but we have the same fun !

I also made one like your pic, with longer fuse, makes it fly smoother in pitch
but I definitly prefer it with standard stab and rudders like the "patriot" you can see on my pic above
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Old 11-30-2003, 06:59 PM
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Default RE: Few Sig wonder ??

SAL

I was going to do the nose like a B-25, but never got to it. the Twin came in at 46 oz almost 3 pounds! I am working on a redesing to use 2 Conquest .15 on Carbonfibre plate for a "profile" style nacelles/motormounts, one fuel tank, and one HS81 throttle servo (had to HS-81 before) and go to mini servo from standard all to reduce wieght. I may increass wingspan from 36" to 42".

the twin did not have enough out-thrust angle making one-engine flight darn near impossible

next two pictures are why the twin wonders upgarades have been on hold
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Old 11-30-2003, 07:16 PM
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Default RE: Few Sig wonder ??

my twin came out 55 Oz, but has a wingspan of 48 inches. three degrees right thrust on the right engine
was flying great with good engine out perfos, but I crashed it due to finger troubles... after two dozens of flight.
I will rebuild one same dimensions but with two .25

the following pics are why the twin wonder upgrade is on hold (note that on the whip pic you cans see the wing of one more wonder I really love that plane lol)

as soon I am rich enough I dream to jump in the turbine world
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Old 11-30-2003, 07:27 PM
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Default RE: Few Sig wonder ??

Thanks again for all the tips fellas

between honey do's, work and this GREAT flying weather were having here in vegas it will be a few weeks before i get the wonder finished and in the air.
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Old 11-30-2003, 07:29 PM
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Default RE: Few Sig wonder ??

let us know how it turn !
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Old 12-01-2003, 06:57 PM
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Default RE: Few Sig wonder ??

Quote:
ORIGINAL: SALMONBUG
the following pics are why the twin wonder upgrade is on hold (note that on the whip pic you cans see the wing of one more wonder I really love that plane lol)
as soon I am rich enough I dream to jump in the turbine world
I have two wonder kits NIB and the wood needed to make the twins new 42" wing

sold most of my prop planes & 10+kits and a helo to help fund the turbines
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Old 12-01-2003, 07:04 PM
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Default RE: Few Sig wonder ??

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Crazy4Flight

sold most of my prop planes & 10+kits and a helo to help fund the turbines
My problem is that I can't sold anything I love them too much
I have aproximatly 25 kits waiting in box also but I always tell in myself "one day when i'll get time.."
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Old 12-01-2003, 07:21 PM
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Default RE: Few Sig wonder ??

Quote:
ORIGINAL: SALMONBUG
I have aproximatly 25 kits waiting in box also but I always tell in myself "one day when i'll get time.."
Time for me is a finite quantity. Set you priorities keep a few of the best kits. Find a quality used turbine, I paid 2000 for a P-80 with one flight on it. Then get a Roo or Rookie, in your part of the world a Harpoon. They sell for less than $500 US. You mayt find a deal on laning gear too.
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Old 12-01-2003, 07:33 PM
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Default RE: Few Sig wonder ??

I already have the roo, need all the rest, LOL
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Old 12-02-2003, 12:20 AM
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Default RE: Few Sig wonder ??

Quote:
ORIGINAL: SALMONBUG

I already have the roo, need all the rest, LOL
I saw an add for Simjett 3000 $2299.00 [8D]
just sell some off that inventory
Some of the small local hobby shops here do not have 25 kits in stock !
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Old 12-02-2003, 12:25 AM
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Default RE: Few Sig wonder ??

Quote:
ORIGINAL: jsn

between honey do's, work and this GREAT flying weather were having here in vegas it will be a few weeks before i get the wonder finished and in the air.
1st: change the "honey do's" into honey do-it-yourself
2nd: 3 hours a night should have your Wonder built in a week
3rd: keep flying
4th: keep divorvce lawyers on retainer you may need them
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Old 12-02-2003, 01:00 AM
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Default RE: Few Sig wonder ??

I have had two wonders..the first was built by the book and I used an LA.15 in it. It flew great, used 3004 servos for ele/ail and a hitec micro for the throttle. It had about 30 flights on it when a launching mishap broke of the rear deck. A hasty glue job at the field led to catostrophic failure after a high speed split s. All the electricals were OK so they went in my new kit, powered by a .25fp I have found the plane is not that much faster but climbs and launches much better. I have 6 planes including a GP Shoestring, 1/3 Pitts, Sig Wonder and a 1/5 scale clipped wing cub powered by a saito .60 twin. The wonder is by far the most fun I have flying. I did use angle stock to reinforce the rear deck but no adjustment to the firewall was needed with the bigger engine.
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Old 12-02-2003, 01:15 PM
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Default RE: Few Sig wonder ??

I am an expert on Wonder's.

I have built now about 18 of them.

If you are planning to modify as I alway do with a 25 to 36 engine, the following is necessary for lasting results.

I have just finished my 17th and 18th heavily modified wonder. I replaced the fuselage with 3/16" balsa sides instead of the 3/32" with a doubler. I made the height and width of fuselage 1/2 " narrower. Instead of bulding up the front cowling area with a seperate side piece, I lengthened the fuselage sides.

the opening in the back of fuselage has been cut down just enough to allow the control horn to fit.

Replaced the 1/16" ribs with 3/32" using 0012 airfoil instead of the 0015.

The 1/4"X1/8" spruce spars are replace with 1/4"x/14" spruce.

I used 1/16" shear webbing for the first 3 ribs on each side and 1/16 balsa the rest of the way.

I replaced the motor mount firewall with a 1/4" ply.

The horizontal stab is 1/4" trangular stock inside of fuselage for strength.

The elevator, throttle and switch is at back of fuselage where the taper starts.

Use on elevator Hitech 225 for high speed plans work best and they are slightly less than 1oz each.

The replaced the first 2 inner ribs with 1/16" ribs with tabs and equally spaced them to the width of the inner fuselage and then was epoxied to the inside of the fuselage.

The wing is non removable.

I kept the hatch in the back stock, and replaced the bottom of fuselage with 1/8 lite ply as a hatch for access.

I installed vortex wing tips.

I shortened the vert stabs height and reduced the under hang to a max of 1/2". The first thing that breaks of even during a good landing is the vert stabs.

I replaced the 1/8 stabs with 3/16 inch and slotted the center and installed 1/64 ply for a razor sharp leading and trailing edge.

I did the same for all trailing edges on elevator and ailerons.

I used 1/4 inch tri stock and beefed up the joint top and bottom on vert stab full length.

The existing brass tubing for ailerons work fine. They are the same as for a Q500.

I installed a Ross.21 rear exhaust with 2.2 hp on # 17 and a Sx32 on #18.

I just had my 1st flight and plan has been clock at level flighton #17 at 205 MPH and 215PMH in a dive.

I also has 1st flight on #18 and clocked 168 MPH level and 187MPH in a dive with a certified radar gun .

I shorten the ailerons to the last 2 ribs at the end to prevent flutter.

Hope this helps, pictures will follow.

Mark
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