Thoughts and ideas regarding gyro on ailerons
05-30-2013, 11:29 AM
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Thoughts and ideas regarding gyro on ailerons
I would like to try putting a gyro on ailerons on my 60" BVM F-86, and if I like it maybe on some of my other jets also. I have very very limited experience using gyros and could use some suggestions ,hints and tips. I see on the BVM web site that they recommend the JR 370A gyro which is specifically made for airplanes and not for heli's. Unless someone can convince me otherwise I will probably buy one of these gyros in the next few days. I am certainly open to using a less expensive gyro as long as the performance and reliability are acceptable.
I guess I am a little unclear as to how a gyro on ailerons is intended to work. At first I thought that the gyros job was to level the wings any time that there is not an overriding control input from the transmitter. But then I thought that would mean every time I establish a bank angle to make a turn and relax the aileron input that the gyro would roll the wings level. So then I thought that would mean I would have to hold the aileron input until ready to roll out of the turn. But that wont work as the angle of bank would continue to increase and cause an ever steepening bank angle. So............clearly I need somebody to explain to me exactly how this is to be setup and how it will all work.
What I am looking to accomplish primarily is to make my final approach to be more wings level and less wings rocking and rolling. Additionally this airplane tends to drop the right wing pretty hard if stalled or if too much up elevator or too rapid of elevator control is applied during flare and just prior to touchdown.
I could use some guidance from those with experience. I sure don't want to screw anything up that might make is less stable and less controllable
Additionally if anyone has a JR 370A gyro new or used for sale I might be interested. Or other suitable gyros.
I guess I am a little unclear as to how a gyro on ailerons is intended to work. At first I thought that the gyros job was to level the wings any time that there is not an overriding control input from the transmitter. But then I thought that would mean every time I establish a bank angle to make a turn and relax the aileron input that the gyro would roll the wings level. So then I thought that would mean I would have to hold the aileron input until ready to roll out of the turn. But that wont work as the angle of bank would continue to increase and cause an ever steepening bank angle. So............clearly I need somebody to explain to me exactly how this is to be setup and how it will all work.
What I am looking to accomplish primarily is to make my final approach to be more wings level and less wings rocking and rolling. Additionally this airplane tends to drop the right wing pretty hard if stalled or if too much up elevator or too rapid of elevator control is applied during flare and just prior to touchdown.
I could use some guidance from those with experience. I sure don't want to screw anything up that might make is less stable and less controllable
Additionally if anyone has a JR 370A gyro new or used for sale I might be interested. Or other suitable gyros.
05-30-2013, 12:06 PM
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RE: Thoughts and ideas regarding gyro on ailerons
The 370a is a great gyro on the ailerons of a Sabre. The gyro will do exactly what you want, dampen the roll axis. This gyro will not "level" the wing. This gyro will resist uncommanded change. Notice I said resist, since it does not have hold, it will not return to the angle it was blown off by a gust or thermal. The result is you look very locked in on approach.
I have several setup tutorial video on RCJetAddiction.com, just do a search for 370a
I have several setup tutorial video on RCJetAddiction.com, just do a search for 370a
05-30-2013, 12:06 PM
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RE: Thoughts and ideas regarding gyro on ailerons
I think the best way it was described to me is that the gyro can be set to hold the angle of bank that you command. SO if you input left aileron and establish a bank and release the stick it can maintain that bank as it is was told to stop there. SO, if on approach you want wings level - YOU make the wings level and the gyro will maintain it as you neutralize stick deflection.
The trick seems to be to maks sure that the gyro is only correcting the neutral stick position. YOu want the gyros ability to counter the bank to be negligble when turning (or you will make a huge circle perhaps...) and to be sensitive once you are close to neutral stick.
This is just my two cents as other s have helped me with seeting mine up on my Weatronics rx.
(Thanks Lance!)
Dave
Sorry- to correct as Dustin and others mentioned - I am not using "hold" just that this will resist further roll etc.
The trick seems to be to maks sure that the gyro is only correcting the neutral stick position. YOu want the gyros ability to counter the bank to be negligble when turning (or you will make a huge circle perhaps...) and to be sensitive once you are close to neutral stick.
This is just my two cents as other s have helped me with seeting mine up on my Weatronics rx.
(Thanks Lance!)
Dave
Sorry- to correct as Dustin and others mentioned - I am not using "hold" just that this will resist further roll etc.
05-30-2013, 12:13 PM
#4
RE: Thoughts and ideas regarding gyro on ailerons
Thats only if you use a heading lock gyro. Most people wouldn't want to use true heading lock on fixed wing.
Like Dustin says, it will dampen unwanted movement, it won't "hold it" or "level it" but it will keep it from being jostled around.
Like Dustin says, it will dampen unwanted movement, it won't "hold it" or "level it" but it will keep it from being jostled around.
05-30-2013, 12:14 PM
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RE: Thoughts and ideas regarding gyro on ailerons
Thanks Dustin and everybody else. That sounds like exactly what I need. I have over 300 flights on my old F 86 and love it but it can get to rocking and rolling on final approach and landing sometimes. I guess that is probably true of most airplanes with that much wing sweep.
Now my question is what is different about this gyro that is for airplanes and a helicopter gyro that has the options of being use as a "heading lock" gyro or a "rate" gyro? Cant I just use one of those types in the "rate" gyro manner ?
Now my question is what is different about this gyro that is for airplanes and a helicopter gyro that has the options of being use as a "heading lock" gyro or a "rate" gyro? Cant I just use one of those types in the "rate" gyro manner ?
05-30-2013, 12:31 PM
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RE: Thoughts and ideas regarding gyro on ailerons
Swept wings encounter dutch roll. F86s are real bad because if the high sweep. Put your gyro on the rudder, it will stop the dutch roll totally and help the takeoff be dead straight. Real jets call it the yaw damper. Dutch roll appears as a wing waggle with a nose track in a small figure 8. You will be very pleased. It will also help coordinate the turns.
05-30-2013, 12:36 PM
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RE: Thoughts and ideas regarding gyro on ailerons
I watched part of Dustins video. He uses one on aileron and one on rudder. Maybe that's the way to go ???? That should just about insure a crash or two ! ! !
05-30-2013, 12:54 PM
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RE: Thoughts and ideas regarding gyro on ailerons
ORIGINAL: tp777fo
It will also help coordinate the turns.
It will also help coordinate the turns.
05-30-2013, 01:00 PM
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RE: Thoughts and ideas regarding gyro on ailerons
I guess it depends upon what the airplane is doing when banked. I think TP is correct, the nose is probably yawing some what in the opposite direction (adverse yaw) and therefore the gyro used on rudder should be in effect a yaw damper and help coordinate the turn. this is certainly true on full size swept wing transport type airplanes.
05-30-2013, 01:10 PM
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RE: Thoughts and ideas regarding gyro on ailerons
ORIGINAL: turnnburn
I guess it depends upon what the airplane is doing when banked. I think TP is correct, the nose is probably yawing some what in the opposite direction (adverse yaw) and therefore the gyro used on rudder should be in effect a yaw damper and help coordinate the turn. this is certainly true on full size swept wing transport type airplanes.
I guess it depends upon what the airplane is doing when banked. I think TP is correct, the nose is probably yawing some what in the opposite direction (adverse yaw) and therefore the gyro used on rudder should be in effect a yaw damper and help coordinate the turn. this is certainly true on full size swept wing transport type airplanes.
05-30-2013, 01:11 PM
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RE: Thoughts and ideas regarding gyro on ailerons
If you're getting any significant adverse yaw from an F-86 you've got the aileron rates set WAY too high. The BVM 60" F-86 is best served with a gyro on the rudder in rate mode, NOT heading hold mode. You really don't need one on the ailerons, but if you do, be sure to setup a mix to reduce gyro gain as a function of aileron stick movement. This way the gyro won't be fighting against your inputs, but will help dampen uncommanded roll movement.
05-30-2013, 01:39 PM
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RE: Thoughts and ideas regarding gyro on ailerons
I never said I was getting "dutch roll" or "adverse yaw" with this airplane. I woudnt be surprised if a small amount of "dutch roll" isn't present, but if it is it is largely undetectable from my vantage point on the ground. Ditto for adverse yaw. Im just looking for a way to make the airplane fly better on final approach and landing, as in, trying to reduce some of the "wing walk" if you will. Like I said I have flown it over 300 flights as it is so its not like it is unflyable or anything close to unflyable. Just looking to see if I can make it a little smoother and easier. I don't fly real often and Im not a kid with super fast reflexes and eaqle like vision so if I can make it a little easier im all for it.
05-30-2013, 02:07 PM
#13
RE: Thoughts and ideas regarding gyro on ailerons
Put one on the aileron and the rudder.
You will love it!
The 370 is very easy to plug and play and setup.
If you have ever noticed a tail waggle on the F86 it will eliminate this as well.
you will just notice that your aircraft is much smoother. no more bouncing around or wingwalking. even smooth in windy conditions.
you can set up the gain on Aux 2 with 3 positions and change according to flight conditions if you like. I just turn mine on and never touch though. The aircraft just feels better.
Good luck!
Scott
You will love it!
The 370 is very easy to plug and play and setup.
If you have ever noticed a tail waggle on the F86 it will eliminate this as well.
you will just notice that your aircraft is much smoother. no more bouncing around or wingwalking. even smooth in windy conditions.
you can set up the gain on Aux 2 with 3 positions and change according to flight conditions if you like. I just turn mine on and never touch though. The aircraft just feels better.
Good luck!
Scott
05-30-2013, 02:18 PM
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RE: Thoughts and ideas regarding gyro on ailerons
ORIGINAL: turnnburn
I would like to try putting a gyro on ailerons on my 60'' BVM F-86, and if I like it maybe on some of my other jets also. I have very very limited experience using gyros and could use some suggestions ,hints and tips. I see on the BVM web site that they recommend the JR 370A gyro which is specifically made for airplanes and not for heli's. Unless someone can convince me otherwise I will probably buy one of these gyros in the next few days. I am certainly open to using a less expensive gyro as long as the performance and reliability are acceptable.
I guess I am a little unclear as to how a gyro on ailerons is intended to work. At first I thought that the gyros job was to level the wings any time that there is not an overriding control input from the transmitter. But then I thought that would mean every time I establish a bank angle to make a turn and relax the aileron input that the gyro would roll the wings level. So then I thought that would mean I would have to hold the aileron input until ready to roll out of the turn. But that wont work as the angle of bank would continue to increase and cause an ever steepening bank angle. So............clearly I need somebody to explain to me exactly how this is to be setup and how it will all work.
What I am looking to accomplish primarily is to make my final approach to be more wings level and less wings rocking and rolling. Additionally this airplane tends to drop the right wing pretty hard if stalled or if too much up elevator or too rapid of elevator control is applied during flare and just prior to touchdown.
I could use some guidance from those with experience. I sure don't want to screw anything up that might make is less stable and less controllable
Additionally if anyone has a JR 370A gyro new or used for sale I might be interested. Or other suitable gyros.
I would like to try putting a gyro on ailerons on my 60'' BVM F-86, and if I like it maybe on some of my other jets also. I have very very limited experience using gyros and could use some suggestions ,hints and tips. I see on the BVM web site that they recommend the JR 370A gyro which is specifically made for airplanes and not for heli's. Unless someone can convince me otherwise I will probably buy one of these gyros in the next few days. I am certainly open to using a less expensive gyro as long as the performance and reliability are acceptable.
I guess I am a little unclear as to how a gyro on ailerons is intended to work. At first I thought that the gyros job was to level the wings any time that there is not an overriding control input from the transmitter. But then I thought that would mean every time I establish a bank angle to make a turn and relax the aileron input that the gyro would roll the wings level. So then I thought that would mean I would have to hold the aileron input until ready to roll out of the turn. But that wont work as the angle of bank would continue to increase and cause an ever steepening bank angle. So............clearly I need somebody to explain to me exactly how this is to be setup and how it will all work.
What I am looking to accomplish primarily is to make my final approach to be more wings level and less wings rocking and rolling. Additionally this airplane tends to drop the right wing pretty hard if stalled or if too much up elevator or too rapid of elevator control is applied during flare and just prior to touchdown.
I could use some guidance from those with experience. I sure don't want to screw anything up that might make is less stable and less controllable
Additionally if anyone has a JR 370A gyro new or used for sale I might be interested. Or other suitable gyros.
05-30-2013, 02:25 PM
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RE: Thoughts and ideas regarding gyro on ailerons
Be advised that the JR 370A Must be used with Digital servos. It will not work with analog servos, if you have any.
05-30-2013, 02:50 PM
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RE: Thoughts and ideas regarding gyro on ailerons
That's not true according to Dustins video. he said that there is a dead band setting switch with two postions. One for digital servos and one for non digital. In my case that's not a problem, I have digital servos on all my flight surfaces in all my jets with one exception.
As Scott mentioned this airplane does at times do the "Sabre Dance" during high speed flight. A rudder gyro properly set should do away with all of that also.
As Scott mentioned this airplane does at times do the "Sabre Dance" during high speed flight. A rudder gyro properly set should do away with all of that also.
05-30-2013, 03:04 PM
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RE: Thoughts and ideas regarding gyro on ailerons
Well.....................The instructions that came with my 370A said "Not for use with analog servos". My Kingcat had an analog servo on the nose wheel when I got it, and it would not move with the gyro until I replaced it with a digital servo.......Just sayin'
05-30-2013, 03:14 PM
#18
RE: Thoughts and ideas regarding gyro on ailerons
Dustin has it spot on. Rate Gyros DAMPEN the controls . I use Wetronics rate gyros on rudder and aileron in my Bandits and love it. It makes the model seem "bigger" in the air, especially in windy or turbulent conditions when it smooth out the bumps..
05-30-2013, 03:37 PM
#19
RE: Thoughts and ideas regarding gyro on ailerons
I'd bet my last $ that the wing rocking will be corrected by a rudder gyro. As the angle of attack increases in slow flight the rudder becomes more effective and will correct the problem. Adverse yaw will occur with any down aileron and start the nose trackkng outside the turn. A rate gyro will correct this. Differential ailerons will also helpprevent adverse yaw. Up aileron more than down aileron.
05-30-2013, 04:32 PM
#20
RE: Thoughts and ideas regarding gyro on ailerons
I have been using an eagle tree guardian set on 3d mode (rate) and heading hold turned off. I have rudder and ailerons hooked up only. It's $65 at tower and works fabulous. It has settings for analog or high speed servos. The software allows you to use your computer (windows only) to customize your settings.
Vin...
Vin...
05-30-2013, 04:53 PM
#22
RE: Thoughts and ideas regarding gyro on ailerons
ORIGINAL: on_your_six
If you have never been using gyros... I would suggest trying things out on a foamy or a much less expensive plane until you are confident in what you are doing.
If you have never been using gyros... I would suggest trying things out on a foamy or a much less expensive plane until you are confident in what you are doing.
Last week I had the opportunity of installing a Powerbox Igyro in my Composite Arf Tutor and I can say that I will never look back. Actually, now I have three (3) other Igyros that I want to install in my other planes. I'm also buying three (3) new Powerbox Royal Igyro.
The Tutor is already a very stable plane but with the Igyro, it is super easy to fly and it looks great in the air. Now is so stable even with wind and it really helps during landings. Does the plane needs the gyro ? Possibly not but it surely makes it look nice in the air and all acrobatic maneuvers are much more easy.
If set up correctly, flying your plane with a gyro shouldn't be a problem......
05-30-2013, 05:05 PM
#23
RE: Thoughts and ideas regarding gyro on ailerons
I have been using aileron
and rudder gyros for about 13 years on all my jets. On my bandit and P80 I have it on one aileron only. I did not want to buy 2 gyros to be able to use crow. Works great. Dan Avilla
05-30-2013, 06:50 PM
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RE: Thoughts and ideas regarding gyro on ailerons
I learned the hard way a few weeks ago that the analog 2721 and 370a don't play well together.
so if the video say analog ok, disregard. The instruction certainly say digital only.
something to consider with gyro use is the fact the servos are basically constantly changing direction. This means servo life is reduced and battery consumption is increased. How much? Who knows....
as for what surface is the best to stabilize? I say give me an aileron gyro before anything else. I've flown the little Sabre with aileron only, I did not know until the customer told me. I figured it had rudder aswell. An aileron gyro builds confidence because the plane stays where you left it, but on the other hand it can mask a stall... Beware.
so if the video say analog ok, disregard. The instruction certainly say digital only.
something to consider with gyro use is the fact the servos are basically constantly changing direction. This means servo life is reduced and battery consumption is increased. How much? Who knows....
as for what surface is the best to stabilize? I say give me an aileron gyro before anything else. I've flown the little Sabre with aileron only, I did not know until the customer told me. I figured it had rudder aswell. An aileron gyro builds confidence because the plane stays where you left it, but on the other hand it can mask a stall... Beware.
