Should we ban Diesel fuel
#26
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Pete,
You are absolutely right, we are only guests at the airports and you & everyone on here are a member with a PRIVILEDGE to fly at our local clubs. As most on here already stated, why in the hell would anyone fuel a plane with out an overflow tank plugged in? Shouldn't we do a better job of following common sense rules and police the guys without common sense at the time they are caught, instead of starting a lets ban some more of our hobby or better yet maybe we can sue someone rally? Considering Jet A, Kero and Diesel all come from the same fuel family, maybe we should ban the use of all those fuels, all together, as they will all cause damage over time? Lets not forget gasoline & Nitro, I can go to my local club that doesn't allow turbines and find all kind of stained spots from spills so maybe we should just ban all fuels and everyone go electric? It's bad enough we have the FAA trying to shut down RC and we have guys like you giving them more ammunition to shut us down. Now, we are all contaminating the water supply and environment because we can't hook up a bloody overflow tank and you want us to fuel in the grass to save the asphalt. This is an important issue, so maybe you should have started a " Remember to use an overflow tank" thread and posted a reminder to all the knit wits out there that think they are above using the tank and want to ruin a good thing instead of your Lets Ban Diesel...
Ghostrider 1 out!!
You are absolutely right, we are only guests at the airports and you & everyone on here are a member with a PRIVILEDGE to fly at our local clubs. As most on here already stated, why in the hell would anyone fuel a plane with out an overflow tank plugged in? Shouldn't we do a better job of following common sense rules and police the guys without common sense at the time they are caught, instead of starting a lets ban some more of our hobby or better yet maybe we can sue someone rally? Considering Jet A, Kero and Diesel all come from the same fuel family, maybe we should ban the use of all those fuels, all together, as they will all cause damage over time? Lets not forget gasoline & Nitro, I can go to my local club that doesn't allow turbines and find all kind of stained spots from spills so maybe we should just ban all fuels and everyone go electric? It's bad enough we have the FAA trying to shut down RC and we have guys like you giving them more ammunition to shut us down. Now, we are all contaminating the water supply and environment because we can't hook up a bloody overflow tank and you want us to fuel in the grass to save the asphalt. This is an important issue, so maybe you should have started a " Remember to use an overflow tank" thread and posted a reminder to all the knit wits out there that think they are above using the tank and want to ruin a good thing instead of your Lets Ban Diesel...
Ghostrider 1 out!!
#27
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We can always be carefull, use an overflow tank etc but on occasion there will be accidents and spilage. I had the line pop of my fuel jug and it syphioned out while I was flying. It was Jet a so it dried and left a stain. If this was diesel, we would have a 1.5' hole eaten into the pavment.
#29
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Overflow tanks (btw, we use them), mats, drop sheets, whatever are all great but, the reality is; you are going to spill fuel on the tarmac sooner or later. It can easily spill/ leak when you disconnect the overflow tank. I think what Pete is saying is that we've noticed a problem with diesel at our own club whereby, more guys are running it now and we're seeing damage to the tarmac. If that's not a concern for you or your club than there's no problem is there? It is a concern for us, we don't want to get kicked out of a gorgeous facility.
Rather than jump all over the guy about proposing a ban, thank him for the information ( that we've noticed diesel destroys asphalt) and decide for yourself as a conscientious modeller whether you want to use the stuff or not now that you know what can happen.
If you and your club mates are perfect and only idiots spill fuel, you have no worries, disregard the info.
Mike
Rather than jump all over the guy about proposing a ban, thank him for the information ( that we've noticed diesel destroys asphalt) and decide for yourself as a conscientious modeller whether you want to use the stuff or not now that you know what can happen.
If you and your club mates are perfect and only idiots spill fuel, you have no worries, disregard the info.
Mike
#30
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I think the reaction is caused by the fact that the population seems to love banning things they don't like, there are ways to prevent spills as much as possible and it has been noted here that all the fuels we use will affect asphalt, what makes the difference is the temperature of the surface and how long it has been there, we don't really see much damage caused to our asphalt at our field but the asphalt in the pits has been there a long time.
My relatively new drive at home was damaged by kerosene though
clearly the hobby is not going to ban diesel, they don't have the authority for one, if you guys are having an issue at your field then maybe you should ban it there and then you could come here with a note about the damage it can cause but to try to outright ban a fuel that many rely on either for convenience or economics is ridiculous.
My relatively new drive at home was damaged by kerosene though
clearly the hobby is not going to ban diesel, they don't have the authority for one, if you guys are having an issue at your field then maybe you should ban it there and then you could come here with a note about the damage it can cause but to try to outright ban a fuel that many rely on either for convenience or economics is ridiculous.
#31
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HI all, glad the smarter ones read between the lines, yes I started a fire to get your attention.Now, lets hope everyone will pay more attention on fuelling and realize the consequences. No overflow tank, no fly, I like that one, Ron.
I have now started to use a shut off valve, 1'' from the fuel plug, to prevent disconnect spillage.
Rcpete
I have now started to use a shut off valve, 1'' from the fuel plug, to prevent disconnect spillage.
Rcpete
#32
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Very simple cheap solution to your issue. Go to fastenal, or any store that sells hazmat materials. Purchase a bag of oil diapers. They are very thin. Place one diaper under the plane during refueling and the diaper will absorb the diesel and keep it off the ground. Once the event is over place the used diapers in a trash bag and take them to a environmental disposal place. Problem solved.
Glenn
Glenn
#35
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If enough kero or JetA is spilled, it will eat up the asphalt as well. At the Ozark Mountain rally some years ago, several pilots were being very sloppy about their refueling and spilling of fuel. Never thought it would do anything but stain the surface. Wrong!!! Turned the asphalt in the worst spill areas to the consistency of thick mud.
#36
+1
Our ex RAF now Army Luffenham runway long started to break up with age but we are careful about spillage and this includes Gas/Petrol which I think is even worse on tarmac?
Alan
Our ex RAF now Army Luffenham runway long started to break up with age but we are careful about spillage and this includes Gas/Petrol which I think is even worse on tarmac?
Alan
Last edited by fireblade5437; 08-30-2014 at 01:50 AM.
#38
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Any impacts to concrete? Our start area is concrete, but runway is nice (and fairly new) asphalt. I am new to turbines and plan to run diesel. I don't want to cause issues at my club. I do have an overflow tank.
#39
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Well, from what I'm reading here, all forms of gas/jet-a/kerosene/diesel (and probably someone will say nitro and lithium batteries too) are detrimental to the asphault/concrete/grass/dirt and air. So where does that leave us, right back where we started. So before e sky actually falls, I'm gonna go flying and try my best not to spill my coffee.
#40
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So..... Maybe this is an obvious and/or stupid question but, what is different about the asphalt at the gas station than a runway? We had a diesel truck for many years and the area around the diesel pumps were always slippery from diesel spills but the asphalt was never soft or deteriorating. Since I saw this thread I've been looking at the diesel areas when I go to the gas stations. That said, would it stand to reason that perhaps it's the turbine oil causing the problem more than the fuel itself? Maybe the oil in the diesel is more caustic than in jet A but is the diesel really the issue? Just seems odd that the parking lots around the diesel pumps aren't all crumbling if what you say is true.
#42
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There are many different asphalt mix designs, ie temp asphalt, pg6410, pg7010, HRMA (rubber mixed) and so on and so on. The asphalt actually has different aggregates, binding agents and hardeners that are petrol based and depending where you live have better quality or worse materials. Like you said, why don't gas stations have deteriorated asphalt by the pumps, that is because they use a quality asphalt mix design so it doesn't deteriorate. Obviously some clubs are using the cheapest way to put a runway or pit area in.
#43
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So..... Maybe this is an obvious and/or stupid question but, what is different about the asphalt at the gas station than a runway? We had a diesel truck for many years and the area around the diesel pumps were always slippery from diesel spills but the asphalt was never soft or deteriorating. Since I saw this thread I've been looking at the diesel areas when I go to the gas stations. That said, would it stand to reason that perhaps it's the turbine oil causing the problem more than the fuel itself? Maybe the oil in the diesel is more caustic than in jet A but is the diesel really the issue? Just seems odd that the parking lots around the diesel pumps aren't all crumbling if what you say is true.
If you google it, there are several studies that I could find showing that diesel breaks down the binding agent in asphalt causing it to crumble. One study I found was Australian, the other I think was a US study but, typically done by Transportation Ministries looking to reduce maintenance costs due to diesel spills.
Of course, there don't seem to be any such studies on Jet A or Kero as they're typically not used in road vehicles. Our experience up at Wingham airport is that, we flew there for years using Jet A or Kero and didn't notice any damage. Now, more of us are using diesel and we're seeing the asphalt problem. Certainly not scientific but, that's the observation.
Mike
#44
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One of the things that impressed me over 7 years ago when I entered the turbine world was how careful the jet pilots were to use overflow tanks and such at Wingham.. Being one who's club is on a sod field, we have to be very careful not to burn the grass. I would preach to the guys with nitro and gas engines to do as the jet guys do, and use an overflow tank as back then I never seen a spill. So what has happened!?!? I havnt been to Wingham in a couple of years.. but it sounds and looks from the pictures that you guys are bathing in the stuff. When did eveyone become so lacksydasickle when fueling their planes?
Use an overflow tank and PAY ATTENTION!
Use an overflow tank and PAY ATTENTION!
#45
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One of the things that impressed me over 7 years ago when I entered the turbine world was how careful the jet pilots were to use overflow tanks and such at Wingham.. Being one who's club is on a sod field, we have to be very careful not to burn the grass. I would preach to the guys with nitro and gas engines to do as the jet guys do, and use an overflow tank as back then I never seen a spill. So what has happened!?!? I havnt been to Wingham in a couple of years.. but it sounds and looks from the pictures that you guys are bathing in the stuff. When did eveyone become so lacksydasickle when fueling their planes?
Use an overflow tank and PAY ATTENTION!
Use an overflow tank and PAY ATTENTION!
Mike
#46
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Jeremy,
If you google it, there are several studies that I could find showing that diesel breaks down the binding agent in asphalt causing it to crumble. One study I found was Australian, the other I think was a US study but, typically done by Transportation Ministries looking to reduce maintenance costs due to diesel spills.
Of course, there don't seem to be any such studies on Jet A or Kero as they're typically not used in road vehicles. Our experience up at Wingham airport is that, we flew there for years using Jet A or Kero and didn't notice any damage. Now, more of us are using diesel and we're seeing the asphalt problem. Certainly not scientific but, that's the observation.
Mike
If you google it, there are several studies that I could find showing that diesel breaks down the binding agent in asphalt causing it to crumble. One study I found was Australian, the other I think was a US study but, typically done by Transportation Ministries looking to reduce maintenance costs due to diesel spills.
Of course, there don't seem to be any such studies on Jet A or Kero as they're typically not used in road vehicles. Our experience up at Wingham airport is that, we flew there for years using Jet A or Kero and didn't notice any damage. Now, more of us are using diesel and we're seeing the asphalt problem. Certainly not scientific but, that's the observation.
Mike
I would still be curious though as to having you test a small area maybe off on the side, put some raw diesel on the asphalt and see if it causes the same problem. I'm sure it breaks down the asphalt, and as was also mentioned there are different grades of asphalt, but are they really that different that diesel would cause it to break down that quickly on your runway or start area as opposed to at a gas station? I know Jet A and Kero get spilled and you're saying it hasn't caused a problem, but perhaps there is a different chemical change when turbine oil is added into diesel than Jet A and Kero. I'm just looking for the reason it is happening so badly at your field but not at a gas station where over the course of a day there is probably a gallon spilled in any given area.
#47
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Mike I'm sorry... but spills should NOT happen all the time. As I mentioned, I fly on sod fields. Many times we have to set up on the grass it self.. but We don't have any burns that indicate there have been spills? Now granted we don't have 10 jets with kero or diesel or what ever..cause honestly it should not matter what your putting in the tank, but we do have MANY gasses and they don't dump fuel all over the ground... The point being we are very careful not to over fill. I know that many jet guys like to have their overflow on the bottom of the jet. This might be something to consider changing. Even though the vent line appears empty.. it will still spit fuel, hens the need for the overflow tank and to perhaps move the overflow connection inside as I have mine(then you will see people paying close attention). As Blair mentioned earlier... filling your tank to the very top is not a good idea either.
I think that people had it to easy when using the kero.. Spill some fuel...ohh well. Now that has carried over to people that use diesel, when really NO spill should be acceptable. For sure its that way at my club. Doesn't matter what fuel.. People need to pay more attention.. bottom line.
I think that people had it to easy when using the kero.. Spill some fuel...ohh well. Now that has carried over to people that use diesel, when really NO spill should be acceptable. For sure its that way at my club. Doesn't matter what fuel.. People need to pay more attention.. bottom line.
Last edited by Vettster; 08-30-2014 at 01:19 PM.
#48
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We had a similar problem with gasoline on grass - except it was only grass. We put up signs and tried to encourage everyone to use a catch pan. Some did, some would not and continued to kill grass.