I am wondering what exactly is the advantage of removing the wing tips from the Flip 3D or Hype? I have seen pics and understand the concept but having never flown the clipped wing version, it is hard to understand what it does for you and how it helps these (and I am sure others) performance wise. Is it simply a faster roll rate? do the tips do something in KE flight that is undesireable?

Please help me understand why I want to modify my plane this way.

Me 2, I'd hate to remove my w/t's for just a slight/if any increase in performance.

Will it help stabilize in hi-alfa flight as well?

I'm the one who started this.

I find that with out the wingtips the plane rolls faster and knife edges better.

I had a ZN Line Madness that I though flew like crap. Before buring the plane in anger, I decided to cut the wing tips off at the field. And did it make a big difference.

I was dissipointed in the roll rate of the Flip and it coupled very bad in knife edge. I cut the tips off, and it went away.

Same thing on my Prozac.

My Hype never made it to the first slight with the tips on, they were cut off during the building process.

I do not find it increases the landing speed or slow flight ablity.

Most people feel the Flip and Hype rolls too fast for them now. If that is the case, do not remove the tips.

It's just a piece of the set up. Everyone has the set up they prefere. You never know until ya try.

Ynot,
For me it is not the roll rate that I find fault with. If it were too fast without tips, you could just reduce the ailerons throw for a slower rate.

The part I wanted to know about was the KE coupling. My flip displays different coupling at different rudder inputs and airspeeds. It is not linear and seems to even change coupling dirrection at max rudder deflection. Right now I have chosen an airspeed that requires a given rudder input to hold KE flight and mixed the Pitch and Roll out there. If airspeed drops or increases I am flying some correction to the radio mix correction. Sometimes more in the mix dirrection and sometimes against the mix. I have heard that cutting the tips off of the old Nobler was an advantage, but again never heard what the advantage was.

When you say that the coupling went away, is that a 100% removal of all coupling? Obviously you believe in it enough to not even try your Hype with the tips on. Does this mod enhance stability in Harriers and other stall moves? Why do you suppose the designers even put them on?

Thanks,

Errol

I cut the wing tips off of my U CAN DO 3D 60 size airplane.
I cut the wing tips off trying to get the airplane to Knife edge better I have not flown the plane since I have made this change, but I will keep you guys posted on how I think things Improved or not. I ended up rebuilding and recovering my airplane so it will be a couple of weeks before it gets airborne.

It does not take 100% of the coupling out. Most, yes. All, no.

I do not fly with any rudder/aileron/elevator mixing, I just fly the plane.

As far as harrier and elevator's, I really can't say it helps or hurts. I have flown them so much with out the tips, it is difficult to say. I will say this, I found the Flip did harrier and elevator better with spoilerons mixed with the elevator. Don't ask the percentage, casue I don't know.

I will fly the plane, make an ajustment, fly and continue to make balance, thrust, throws, expo, D/R ajustment until I'm happy. This may take 20 flights.

I worked on my Funtana for 27 flights and gave up. Never could get the plane to fly the way I wanted the plane to fly. Took the gear out and now it hangs. One of the reasons I'm not a fan of the Funtana, just could not get it to fly the way I wanted it to fly.

As far as the designers. I understand the Hype designer was quite offended that I removed the wingtips. The designers of the Capshie 50 and 140 changed the wing design of one of the planes wings and took the tips off. I don't remember which one. Something else, I grew up flying profiles and none of the profile have wingtips either. That is where the orignal idea came from.

Tip less does make the plane a little less stable, I admit that. However I look at it this way, I don't want a 3D plane stable. Any experenced pilot flying a 3D performace plane like a Hype of Flip, will not notice the difference.

Removing the tips will not ruin the plane. I am of the other opinon that the tips on hold the aiplane back.

The folks that have taken the chance and removed the tips have all contacted me and told me what a difference it make and we all question why the tips were there in the first place. The tips do look better and I still believe that they make these birds for the general public and in some cases, the plane would be too much for them to handle.

All tipless

Tony,
You do make the very valid point that even my CG 330 Extreme and the latest CG 540 Edge profiles along with scores of others have no tips. Makes you wonder what the alignment proceedure for this item is when it gets glued on.

I have rebuilt this wing three times now with the last one being a combination of three wings (two from a friend) and new wood. I have all of the templates to build another wing without much worry. Funny thing is, when I did this one, I almost dropped the tips and extended it for construction and covering ease.

Do you think if a guy was to build another wing that it would matter if it was the same length but with flat ends or do you think the decrease in length was as helpful as the flat ends? Maybe I should ask instead, do the planes you have pictured and mentioned have dfferences in their wing spans of more than 2-3 inches?

It seems to me that if you have had success with this technique on several planes, there is some aero thing happening with a looks oriented detail item. I am new enough to the sport that I never saw CPLR fly this design in comp, nor could I tell you if it got "Updated" for a broad audience appeal or not.

Tony, Thanks for the info. I think you have satisfied my curiosity enough that it warrants building another wing. I'll see if a wing of the original span and flat ends has any advantage over the current wing. Probably loose the fore/aft taper on the end though. I know what this wing does. I can always cut it shorter. Sooner or later it will need replacement anyway. Might as well start now on its replacement with the same wing area.

I say chop the tips, i will agree with everything that Tony says. My flip has imprioved no end, more stable in high alpha, elevators with no wobble etc. Yes, the roll is too fast but what do you think rates and expo are for[&:]

Tony and Ian,

The picture of Tony's Flip still has full length alierons. Did these get chopped latetr as well?

Ill let tony describe his many tipless flips......
but mine still has full length ailerons, ive been given allot of stick for this at the patch but IMHO it looks cool!

Well errolw, wadda' ya think. You gonna' lop off the tips or not?

I'm starting to learn the plane a little better and it's really comming arround much better than I initially expected it to.

It still struggles under certain mvrs (harriers, elevs, r.harriers) but I've managed to clean them up a bit by correcting them myself in-flight.

My buddy's got a Hype, maybe I'll ask him to try it on that first to see if he can detect a difference.

I hate to be such a wuss about the tips, but I'm picky that way. Man, this is gonna hurt!

I'm all for performance too, but I can't get myself to cut them tips off. Just look at how nice it looks!

I just can't do it either, man...Sorry

Squabbler: i will answer all your problems with your wobbly wings heres my setup read strait off the tranny, remember, ive got no tips, so it will be better

Futaba FF6 (6exa):

D/R:
Ailerons Hi-100% lo-60%
Elevator: hi-60% lo-60%

EXPO
Ailerons Hi-55% Lo-35%
Elevator Hi-60% lo-50%

Flaperon: ON +100%

AirBrake (to keep it on the ground on a fast taxi): Flap +50%

Elevator to Flap mix: -100%

PMX1
Master: elevator Slave:6, -80% both ways

PMX2
Master elevator Slave Aileron, +80% both ways

Im still adjusting this toget better 3D out of it, with this PMX setup i can do harrier and elevator landings.

Hope this helps

Ian

After I clipped my Flip's tips, I notice a few things:

It does roll better at slow speed. Flip's high speed roll is blinding fast, no question about that. But stock wing's low speed roll leaves something to be desired.

It tracks straighter during waterfalls

It will not flat spin for jack. It's much more difficult to do inverted flat spin, and will not maintain long. Maybe it's just my lack of skill. But when it had tips, it will inverted flat spin in a heart beat.

Harrier does seem a little more stable, but still rocks after a while.

Tail heavy landings don't balloon as bad.

Knife-edge spins are easier. I can just fly KE at flying speed, kick in down elevator, and it will start KE spin. Tail heavy KE spins do not require up rudder.

It looks like tipless has more pros than con. But I really miss those flat spins though.

Ahh all them tipless birds.

I cut the tips off my first Flip at the Flying field. Xacto knife and clear tape. Since I didn't have the right tools to do the ailerons correctly, I just left the trailing edge and the ailerons as they came. I liked the way it flew, so I just left it that way. Flip 2,3 and 4 were all done the same way.

Great conversation starter at the flying field. At Joe Nall this year, several people thought it was some form of special 3d mod I did. Just couldn't tell them I was just lazy.

My new 3D plane I am designing does not have tips either.

Well Squabbler Its like this. I thought I would just leave this wing alone and build another tipless model to try. I love the looks of my plane now (which is realy the only reason not to do it) and I know how it flies like this. The KE performance does leave a lot to be desired. Seans plane looks pretty good tipless so I don't know if I care that much now. Maybe not enough to build another wing. Those aileron tips have to go though. One major detraction to tipless for me would be the loss of flat spin performance. Which leads me to build another wing.

Although I run a JR 8103, I think you will like the mix that Ian has laid out. If I am not mistaken It is simmilar to mine where the ailerons go to spoiler around 75 - 80 % of the elevator up throw and flaps at 75 - 80% of down elevator throw. This really does stabilize the Elev, Harrier and Waterfall type moves. I can do nice slow, tight Inverted Harrier circles for a long time with little loss of altitude and complete dirrectional control. The wing remains rock steady. Never feels like it will snap out of it unintentionally.

I am still on Ian's diet over the wing tips though (Banging your head aginst a brick wall.........) Ian, is there a formula for how many head strikes against the wall it takes to burn that 150 callories? Does sheetrock have a different rating? I need about 7 Lbs worth of head banging here still.

Errol

How much does your elevator travel? How about aileron? My elevator goes about 60 deg max, while my ailerons go about 45 deg max. So I mix my setup "spoiler around 75 - 80 % of the elevator up throw and flaps at 75 - 80% of down elevator throw", would that be same relative deflection of yours?

I wouldn't say he was offended, just, well, if they wanna do that, let em do it.
the FF wing prototype i did on the Capiche, i asked about tips, but it was decided to leave them off, i assume for the same reasons you found, there was a 140 with a different tip section, but that didnt work well so it was changed back.

as for my Cougar i leave them as it cant KE anyway and offers some crash protection when things go wrong thats why ones now green

My elevator throws are 68 deg up and down, more and they hit the rudder with both at full throw too hard. My ailerons are stopped at 45 for roll speed control, all on high rates. I have about 65% expo on high rates and 30% on low as well. I just run my low rates for takeoff and landing comfort at 40 - 50%.

I set my "Flap mix" at -100 % and 100%. If you have a point mix that will start the ailerons up or down somewhere around 75 - 80% of elevator throw, going to 100% Flap or spoiler by full elevator, in the same dirrection as elevator throw , that is what you want. assign it to a switch you can easily access in flight and try both. With this mix on, hovering and most other moves are uneffected as you don't need full elevator throw to maintain them. When I do a harrier to elevator the wing stays stable throughout both and the plane falls nearly straight down. A little power and it begins the harrier again. Slowly releasing elevator and feeding power and it flies away straight and level. Or add power without releasing elevator and it pulls to hover. Parachutes are unbelievable. Standard or Inverted. A quick blip with elevator input and fly out slow and level. The wall is so quick it can be difficult at first not to over rotate the pitch and have the tail passing the plane. It spins around the wing axis in pitch very fast and again can over rotate if you do not modify the time at full elevator throw for a hover to front or back flip and back to hover move. Try this with altitude first to get used to the speed of rotation. It can be headed to the ground pretty fast. Fun stuff this 3D flying.

I do not use this mix for snap rolls as it just stops the snap and the plane just sits there all bound up. Nor do I use it for blender to inverted flat spin type moves. Mainly because I haven't experimented enough with it. With this engine and tail throws, My plane will gain altitude in an inverted flat spin at 7/8 throttle or above without this mix on. That is too fun.

Alright edible and errolw, lets see if I've got this right then. What your saying, is that when my elev. goes up at about 80% of stick travel, both my ailerons should go up 100% at that point (snap spoilerons)? And when my elev goes down, then, the same should happen in the opposite direction, right?

I'm a little apprehensive with this set-up because:

a) When I give full up elev (no spoilerons), plane snaps hard right.
b) I once tried proportional spoilers (mixed w/elev) and made plane less stable.
c) I once tried proportional flaps (mixed w/elev) and made plane less stable.
d) I once tried proportional spoilers and waterfalls were not as tight as w/out.
e) I once tried 10%, 30% and 100% spoilers and waterfalls were not as tight as w/out.
f) I once tried 10%, 30% and 100% spoilers and made plane less stable.

*I too am using the JR8103 and would like to assign the sprung (trainer) switch for snap spoiler/flap.
Can this be done?

*If the above cannot be assigned, would I have to use mix1 or mix2 as a point mix?

*I've only got about 45° of elev both ways because of my snapping issue.
Should I go more° to achieve harrier/elevators?

*Harriers and elevators are very unstable right now (no spoilerons/flapperons). Lots 'o wing rock
and other weird stuff, however, hovering & T/R is rock solid and I'd hate to loose stability in this area.

*Flat spins (no spoilerons/flapperons) are dynamite and fully controlable
and I'd hate to loose stability in this area.


Errolw, other than KE improvement, I can think of no other reason why you'd want to remove your tips, nor, why you'd want to bang your head against a wall for 7lbs. I think that'll take too long and there's gotta be a better way.

Ok Squabbler,
First question I have is, Are you flying a Flip 3D? With 60 plus degrees of elevator throw at 150mm CG, mine will not snap on any elevator input. How much does your plane weigh? Are your elevators symetricly coupled by the bellcrank? Are your Flap and Aileron endpoints giving an equal aileron throw up and down left and right? Do you have any rudder or elevator to aileron mixes active? Is your rudder or ailerons mechanically trimmed with a lot of bias?

As far as the 8103 mix is concerned. The ailerons will start movement at about 75 - 80% of elevator (you have the rest of it correct) deflection and complete their movement to 100% by 100% of elevator deflection. This can be accomplished on either Mix 1 or Mix 2. I would assign this mix to the Prog Mix switch at the top right rear of the radio. Here is how it reads right off of my radio.

[Prog Mix 1]
ELEV+FLAP
Point - L = 100
- 1 = 0
- 2 = 0
- 3 = 0
- H = -100
SW:
MIX

I put all my other KE rudder mixes on Mix 3 and 4 as on always so They work linearly all the time. They seem to be needed in all rudder moves anyway.

Your snapping concerns me though. This may also cause your wings to rock more than normally as well.

Errol, thanks for helping me w/ this setup. U2 Ian.

The aircraft mentioned is the Kyosho Flip 3D.

**Ive checked the items that you've pointed out and here's what I've got...

My CG is at 165mm.

Plane weight is 4lbs-14oz using my buddy's digi fishing scale.

Elev halves are symetrically joined by the stock "U" joiner included in kit (bellcrank?).

Equal throw on ailerons in all directions (up,dn,L/R).

Coupled mixes are as follow:
mix 3) Rudder-Aileron, -15% (ail moves in opp direction to rud, both ways)
mix 4) Rudder-Elevator, +10% (elev moves in up direction to rudder both ways)
-No Elevator to anything is mixed.
-No Aileron to anything is mixed.
(I've double checked everything)

I don't quite understand your last question tho, "mechanically trimmed with a lot of bias?"

Do you think I should "point-mix" left aileron at about 80% of up-elev input?

I've been using the flap switch for spoileron/flapperon mix and have found myself fumbling around to find it w/ a few close calls. I called tech suport at Horizon and Dave told me that the sprung trainer switch was NOT assignable (bummer). I wonder if I could physically swap it out w/ the other position switch on the other side (the one that you referred to) to make it an assignable sprung switch? NEways, I like your mix switch idea a little better, for now and I think it'll be easier to find than the flap switch. Bummer about the sprung switch.

I think if you move your CG back up to at least the 150mm mark, the snapping will subside quite a bit if not altoghther. The spec is 120 to 150mm and I find that, at the 150mm spec, with a close to empty tank and the big Saito 100 still pulling at idle, the landings ballon quite a bit and in flight almost no down elevator is required to hold inverted straight and level flight on a full tank. It hovers and tumbles great and everything else with the exception of the KE coupling couldn't perform better. If you move it all the way up to the 120mm mark, it can almost do IMAC type routines on low rates with some precision. Notice the disclaimers in that sentence. IMO your CG is whats causing your snap. It may also be exagerating the wing wobble in stall moves like elevators and harriers.

Your weight is no problem. Yeah, thats what I call the bellcrank. Probably not the right term. Your mix 3 and 4 percentages may change with the CG shift. On your MIX 3 and MIX 4, are they switched or always on? If they are switched then you can just make them on all the time as you will likely need them in all rudder corrections and they don't affect the hover very much if even noticably around the 4 - 8% level that I have to use. The Prog Mix switch is a lot easier to find in flight for me being right behind the rudder DR switch so I put that MIX 1 ELEV+FLAP mix switched there. I switch it off for snap rolls, blenders and flatspins and any other move I feel it is adversly affecting although those are the only ones I have found so far.

By "mechanically trimmed with a lot of bias" I would be asking if after your first trim flight, you had to trim a control surface with the pushrods a long way from it's visual center due to needing a lot of trim in flight. It is always best to mechanically trim the plane after the first up to even the fifth flight if necessary to keep the electronic trims at or a click (Beep) or two off center. Something like a rudder pointing off center to the right control dirrection or ailerons adjusted with right roll bias for straight level flight would be a first place to look. This doesn't seem like it will be your problem with the snap but look it over. That snap should be nonexistant on that plane at that weight if the CG gets back forward and you are not flying such inputs at full speed. even at full speed it should fold the wing before it snaps. My first Flip did that but I was doing a wall at full speed, my fault. If you want to point mix the Left aileron for the snap to the right, You should not need it once the CG is back forward 15 - 20mm. The snap has to go. I hate the snap and this plane should have almost none if any.

BTW where did you get 165mm for your CG? Just curious. Must be a handfull to fly and land.

One more FYI about the sprung switch. It can be assigned to trainer, Timer or auto snaproll or possibly more than one of these. I use it for the built in count down timer. This is a great help if you remember to flick it at the start of the flight. I hate running out of fuel in flight.

Ha! Particularly while hovering! I use it too (timer switch). I've got it set at 13mins downtime w/ a West 50 and the stock tank. Lands at just under ¼ tank.

Presently, w/ my CG @ 170mils, the plane still requires slight dn pressure, on elev, while inverted. It liteally floats on landing and often have to feed-in a little dn (don't like doing this) to keep up the airspeed. I gathered this CG info from one of the Funtana threads here on RCU. My primary concern was to establish hi-alfa flight w/ ease, and after studying many of the 3D&FF threads, I came up w/ this figure. I'd posted other threads with the Flip CG concern, but recieved no/vague reply.

Maiden flight was made w/ CG @ 150mils and hovering was next to impossible. However, none of the coupling or trims had been made durring this initial attempt. I'll move the CG back up to 150mils and give 'er a go from there. I'll try hovering, T/R's and of course, check elev for r.snap. I often wonder why it only snaps on inside loops and not outside (waterfalls are linear). BTW, the plane is ballanced latterally as well, HOWEVER, is slightly heavy to the right. I mean slightly. Could this be a factor as well?

My mix switches are always "on" and I'll check for any differences w/ the fore CG change.

I called teck support at Horizon again and asked them if I could physically swap a sprung switch w/ the existing pmix switch and I was told that it should work, but I'm gonna' hold off from ordering it and try it your way first (stock switch) to see how that feels. I held the Tx in my hands [stares away into the sky, pretending to fly] and hit the switch back and forth a few times, to see if I could get the jist of it and it feels pretty natural, otherwise. But I still like the sprung switch idea, in case I spazz-out.

Initial trim required only 2 blips of "up" elev and 1 blip of "right" rudder. Since then, I've added more r.thrust (3° now, w/linear vertical), neutrallizing rudder trim and when I moved my CG back, that naturally neutrallized my elev trim. So, right now everything is visually centered as far as I could tell. Q: If I was to raise both my ailerons about 2-3° permanently and re-trim my elev for level flight, would this help stability (I've often wondered)?

Another Q: Have you noticed that rolling harriers are sloppy because of poor KEability (might just be me)? Almost seems top-heavy.

Oh, and another question: Aside from point mix on up elev-spoil, do you have the same setup in the opposite direction (dn elev-flap)?

Errol, thanks again for taking time out to work w/ me on this. I hope I've explained everything clearly. I realy like the exceptional design of this aircraft and it does most maneuvers very well. If I could only get rid of those few bad tendencies, I think It'll be that much more enjoyable.