As a CD for almost 15 years now, I have seen a lot of trends in Big Bird events. The one that bothers me the most is HOVERING! The pilots that do this, tend to do it over the runway, and as close as possible to themselves. As an R/C pilot, I have seen what a prop can do to a person. Most of these events have many spectators who are milling very near the pits, and some even allow the crouds inside the pits while flying is under way. My point is this.......

If you HOVER, you need to do it out away from the flight line!! Doing it over the runway, (1)blocks the normal flight pattern, (2)keeps other pilots form being able to do their fly-by's, (3) leads to a lot of aggravated people for the most part. As a CD, I am the one who hears the most about it. The people who don't like it will come to me to stop it, instead of talking to the pilot after the flight, to explain their position. Personaly, once you have seen it, the thrill is gone! I would much rather see a pilot show me how well he can "FLY" his plane, rather that show me how well his gyro's can control the plane. At my last big bird, a 50% Laser did a tail tap, within 5 feet of the pilot stations. That did it for me...I had to explain the safety issues I had with that, and had to tell him to do it over the field, or be grounded. I had no choice, because the other pilots were going to leave if I didn't stop him.

My question to you pilots...... How do you feel about the safety issues posed by these BIG BIRDS, with BIG ENGINES, spinning BIG PROPS? Is there a problem? Do we need some sort of "SAFETY" guide lines for these events? Your input would be great!! As a CD, I have to make the tough calls. I hate to keep a good pilot from showing off, but there is a line. Thanks guys.....

I tend to agree with you on the issue of hovering directly over the runway. I don't necessarily believe it to be a "safety" issue as much as it is a nuisance to people who would like ot take off and land.

I would like to ask why people assume that there is a gyro in a plane that is hovering. I do not personally know anyone who uses a gyro. I am sure some do use them, but for the most part, I think people leave them for the heli flyers.

Todd

hmmm.... I am not sure about the safety issue. Normally a pilot that knows how to hover an airplane right over a runway will most likely know what he is doing and have control over his plane. After all he is risking his plane and himself also.
However, it should not be done if other people are flying at the same time. Hovering an airplane is really not as hard as it looks, but is a nice crowd pleaser (specially to those who do not know how to hover or are just spectators).
I guess I could agree and think it should be done with precaution like everything related to this hobby.
If we would list all the dangerous things we do at the field (and sometimes in our workshop) we would probably fill pages here
Just my $0.02

Guys,

I would agree with the original poster. It becomes very irritating to the other pilots. As for safety, well....., you are right that most pilots who can hover knows what they are doing. BUT if for some reason Murphy's Law decides to pop in for a visit, you have a major disaster waiting to happen. Radio equipment could fail and may fail at the most inappropriate time. I have seen what a small prop can do, I do not want to imagine what a big prop will do. I have personally seen a kid who can hover very well but came very close to nailing somebody when he got distracted.

My 2 cents worth.


Azhar

Being able to do something stupid shouldn't be carte blanche to do something stupid. Accidents aren't planned, and they most certainly do happen.

There is one thing I do agree on, and that is that RC planes and helis should not be flown unnecessarily close to people (or animals).
Regarding the hovering over the runway, of who I am one, I really don't think that that is any more of a nuisance, than the idiots who like to do low, fast flybys over the runway every chance they get.
Where I fly, I have learned to pick the time for take off, and pick the time to land, and it doesn't necessarily mean after a full tank, can be after a couple of minutes.
I decide not to take off and fly, when "want to be pylon racers" are flying, because I would be a sitting duck in their path, maybe these "want to bes" can pick appropriate times for them to fly, and perhaps let me fly a full tank now and then :boxing: .
I have seen enough mid airs, and I like my models enough, to not just assume that any time as a safe time to fly.
DKjens

Wow I thought it was my job to stir the pot.
As long as the hover boys do it out past the runway and no low
high speed passes down the runway, everybody should be happy. Today most of the pilots don't know what flight pattern
means.

Randy

This has been debated over and over and usully goes nowhere. Heres how I see it.

#1. Its all about tolerance for all aspects of the hobby. Whether that be 3D'ers, helicopters, racers, park flyers, warbirds etc. etc.

#2 Saftey issues concerning 3D IMO are usually invalid. If I am hovering over the runway and lose it or have something fail its just going to plop down onto the ground and not go to far. Generally airspeed for 3D is at a walking speed. Compare that to someone doing a low fly by at full throttle over the runway if he loses it or has something fail........

#3 Why should one aspect of the RC community ( non 3Der's ) dictate how or where 3Der's fly?

#4 I agree that hovering in someones face while he is flying is rude but, why cant the 3D pilot do what he wants when he is in the air by himself or in the air with other 3Der's.

#5 The hobby went through this years ago when helicopters came onto the scene. They were new, they were different and they were over the runway for the most part. People eventually learned that just because it was something new and different didnt mean it was unsafe.


Tolerance and respect is what this boils down to people. .


(And personally, I think that anyone who says 3D is easy has never seriously tried it)

"Being able to do something stupid"

Hovering is stupid? I hope I misunderstood your point with that post. Hovering and torque rolling are possibly the most difficult maneuvers to perform with an plane and I find it hard to call it stupid. If you can't do it, don't like it or find it aggravating thats fine, but it's not stupid.

I agree that there are times to do it and times not to. For the most part I fly alone or with another pilot that I know. I always will make the other pilot aware that I'm going to be flying over the runway. On occasion, I have hovered or TR right in front of another pilot, on accident. Its hard to bail out on one thats going so well. I will always go over to the other pilot and apologize for flying in front of them like that.

For the most part, I will do my hovering late in the day when noone is flying.

Airplane Etiquette. It goes a long way.

BTW, gyro's are cheating. Personally, I don't cheat.

I disagree with your GET OVER IT statement and I'm sure that with some thought you will agree that this 3d style, in your face flying is here to stay. Our hobby is evolving both in the technology and style of flying and with this we get change, I would say calling 3d/hovering a fad is like the freeflight/ control-line guys in the 50,s and 60,s saying that RC is only a FAD, give it a few years and we'll all be back to flying these FFlighters, (I know extreme but just to get the point across).. anyway sorry to tell you but its called progression, and I'm sorry to say its probably get allot more extreme as people dream stuff up.
We were having this problem at our field, actually the old guys thought that we were flying dangerously and we should stop hovering!! This is just unreal as these guys try to hover and haven't got the skills to put it bluntly. I am one of these tail touching idiots who scares away all the other flyers...funny stuff, how can a guy brake the rules when there aren't any...

Theres an EASY solution!!

1st RESPECT other flyer's

2nd ask flyer's if they would mind if you have a small period of time to fly by yourself or for a group of you who fly the same style of flying to fly together.

3rd COMMUNICATION use your common sense, if you don't like what your seeing talk up and don't make a fuss out of a situation that could have been fixed in a short period of time.

4th. Welcome to the future. All of us flyers can co-exist. 3d aint a fad, the hundreds of thousands of flyers trying this style of flying can all vouch that its fun..

5th SAFETY if you feel this is unsafe at your club, have a hovering area at your field maybe on the opposite side of the strip, or even off the flightline.
This is only an opinion, but hey it all makes sense.

And finally, learn how to hover yourself instead of getting after someone that has got considerable skill, you may even come to like it..
think its called tall poppy syndrome!!

Ok guys.
As one of the Mods of this forum lets keep it nice so this good debate doesnt get locked down.

my thoughts are the same as wgeffon......just cause you guys can't hover.....and probably never will....doesn't mean you can shove us in a corner.....now this is my hobby too......i crashed out of a hover 2 days ago.......plane moved maybe 5 ft from where it was hovering ....one of your inverted high speed fly-bys that turn bad will do alot more damage to people or properity that my and wayne hovering could ever do.....i've done high speed crash thing too...so i am speaking from expierence...

Hovering over the runway blocks a major portion of the "normal" flight line. Don't most clubs restrict hovering of helicopters to a certain area? If your club does, then shouldn't planes should be no different? If your club does not....then it must not be as big of an issue. Each club and field is different.

I have only been at the field once when a person brought a plane capable of a really low torque roll. This pilot was 17 and brought a 33% Radiocraft extra out to fly. He approached all of us and let us know of his intentions. He would first fly the IMAC sequence then come in low and slow to do some 3D stuff. He was torque rolling just above the runway to the delite of all of us watching. Sure, he did tie up the flightline for about 15 minuites but for me it was worth watching. It is not everyday that I get to see a $4,000 plane at our field.

Honestly, if it is that offensive to you send your plane up in the air and fly normally. I would bet that the 3D pilot will not appreciate you doing low flybys while he is doing torque rolls and will most likely stop flying these maneuvers. To each his own but I get as much joy watching as I do flying.

Phil (Mesa, AZ)

What don't you guys understand about my last statement......

THIS IS MY HOBBY TOO......I PAID DUES JUST LIKE YOU......TO USE THE WHOLE CLUB FIELD.........NOT ONE CORNER......CAN'T YOU ALL GET ALONG WITH OTHERS AND SHARE?????.....IN MOST CASES THAT FIELD ISN'T YOURS EITHER....IT'S A CLUB FIELD......PRETTY SOON YOU WON'T LET PEOPLE OF OTHER RACES DRINK OUT OF THE SAME WATER FOUNTIANS....SOUND FAMILUAR???....IT'S CALLED DESCRIMATION!!!....NO MATTER HOW YOU LOOK AT IT!!!

Now....with that said lets hear your coments

"Different strokes for different folks" isn't that how the old saying goes. I was once told by a fellow club member that I took up to much space in the air, this might be true if he were talking about me but made no since about my flying. I fly IMAC and Pattern style. This all happend after I had loaded up my trailer and was just watching and he crashed. His excuss was that my flying style was the reason he crashed. Make any since? I did not think so. Another prime example flying jets or DF. People say that these are more dangerous than normal sport flying. I think the people that fly these aircraft are for the most part in full control at all times. Personally I think flying circles with the occasional touch in go is anoying but guess what I do that to with my Cubs.

Chris Puckett

Wow, 15 replies in 3 hours...now that's impressive!

I don't have that problem at my field, but I've seen it at other places many times such as Joe Nall. I can see that point of the original post. Bob Sadler made a point to reinforce the hovering needed to stay on the opposite side of the runway and the guys quickly obliged.

One question comes to mind...if you're torque rolling over the runway, how do you deal with emergency situations such as someone deadstick? Presuming you can hear the "deadstick" call over the hovering plane's engine, the deadstick plane can be on the ground in short order. I know from personal experience that I've yelled "deadstick" and had the plane down in just a few seconds due to it happening at low altitude. Could be ugly...

I'm not a 3D-er, but I don't hold anything against them...personally, I've become fascinated with some of the things that Quique did with AA, but of course much of his demo at Joe Nall was very close to the flight line as well.

In my opinion I think the runway should be a no fly zone. It should be used for take-offs and landings only!. I think the far side of the runway (the one farthest away from the spectators) should be the start of the "Fly Zone",
Just my opinion.

Whats more dangerous?? A 35% edge hovering with the rudder 1 inch off the ground...oops radio glitch...it just plops to the ground...what about a heavily loaded jet or war bird doing high speed low passes...glitch happpens...that is going to do some MAJOR damage.

I will also tell you that when I hover far away from me and high up I'm 10x more likely to lose it...I find it much easier to hover and TR right in front of you where you can make more accurate corrections..maybe you should focus on the guys that DON'T know how to fly?

Chris

my thoughts exactly......

I agree with some of the statements being expressed.

Our club is going through this same debate right now.

I think we all agree on the basic issues.
1) The field belongs to each dues paying club member.
2) We need to learn to share the entire field.
3) Safety of the club members and crowds are a priority.

One proposal at our club was:
If nobody is currently flying - the Giant scale guys should be able to hover over the run way. Two, three, four of them at a time if they want. However - if another club member (non Giant scale 3d dude) wants to go up.. they 3d guys should move it over to a safe.. more neutral area. Sounds good to me.

Another thing that bugs me - when sport flyers don't respect the air space of the giant scale dudes. I see many a sport flyer just punching holes in the sky.. not following a pattern or anything.. just flying like a mad man. That is just as unsafe or as selfish as anything else we have talked about here.


TRP

Easy boys,,,

This has nothing to do with race.....

is, that it all comes down to respecting other pilots. If a pilot has to fly his plane excactly when he wants to, maybe he should go somewhere else. Anybody can wait 10-15 minutes to fly their plane if they have to, and that's all it takes. As I stated earlier, I do not go up if the air is full of planes basically just drilling holes in the sky. I'll wait till I think I'll be comfortable in the air, and I expect these hole drillers to respect me in the same way. If they don't, I will open my mouth and speak my mind. Who's got the most mid-airs? The holedrillers, they often fly so fast and unpredictable, that other pilots just don't have a chance.
DKjens

2fast4U, there are some interesting points here. Hovering is irritating to some, and maybe it should be done / practiced when the sky is fairly empty. Chris540 brings up a very good point. What's more scary, a 45 lb. warbird on a high speed low pass or a large aerobat hovering at zero speed?

Also, you indicated that the gyros fly the planes. Actually, gyros don't fly the planes, the skilled pilots do. Gyros merely provide a gentle buffer for the occasional overcontrol of the rudder. The sensitivity / gain can and perhaps should be turned down as the skill of the flyer increases. I fly with one of the most talented heli flyers in the U.S. He is sponsored etc. I agree with his logic; Use whatever you can to reduce pilot load so you can learn more advanced manuevers. Do you use a fish finder when you fish? If so, why? Did you deny your child training wheels on their first bicycle? If so, why? Would you tell a 15+ year experienced 3-D heli flyer that he shouldn't be using a gyro on his heli-tail? If so, why? There are those individuals who consider it manly / macho to crash without training wheels until you get the hang of it. Not me. I allowed my son to have training wheels. I learned to hover with a gyro and encourage you to try one on your bird if you are learning a move that is very difficult where one might help.

And to 3D Mike, AMEN !!!!!!!!

John Wells

Well I enjoy watching a good 3-d flyer, but do have a problem when it's right over the runway.

#2 Saftey issues concerning 3D IMO are usually invalid. If I am hovering over the runway and lose it or have something fail its just going to plop down onto the ground and not go to far.

Yes this is what will usually happen, but what if you have a glitch and the throttle goes full open for a few seconds?? The plane isn't going to just plop down right there. The field that I flew at had a few that flew 3-d and when they were ready to go up we gave them the space and just popped a cold coke and watched. It sure isn't going to hurt anyone to lose 15 minutes of flying time. We did have one guy get his plane ready (33%) to fly while I was flying and he came over and told me to land so he could fly, well what I told him can't be repeated here, but some courtesy both ways can go a long way. Just my 2 cents worth.