Vittorio, there is no solid answer for this question.

You will use only rudder to steer the plane and to make most corrections.

You will use ailerons, in combination with rudder, at times to make corrections for extreme attitudes.

Attempt to keep wings level durring harrier regardless of which control surfaces you use.

my diablotin has a big wing rock problem, it has a big wing and is very light, I usually roll harrier but lately I have been doing harriers without rolling, close to the ground all around the model port, it is lots of fun working the ailerons and rudder to control wing rock and steer the plane. I noticed that I have a roll couple problem (due to the fixed design of this airplane big rudder inputs cause the airplane to also roll in the direction of rudder input) so I am experimenting with opposite ailerons mixed to rudder - this seems to make hovering and harriers much easier, now when I need a left or right rudder correction this is what I get - no more twisting or wing rocking which requires lots of aileron correction - I still have this on a switch because with this mix on you loose some aileron authority which negatively effects my slow rolling harriers so I am switching back and forth as needed. try this mix if you have an airplane that is roll couple sensitive - it might make a big difference for hovering and harriers. my diablotin has a symetrical wing like most 3d airplanes, a little dihedral would fix this problem but would negatively effect some other stuff.

I coupled my Flip in the same manner. Initially, hovering an T/R's were nearly impossible, however, after the coupling issue was corrected, hovers, T/R's and hi-alfa flight is effortless.

[8D][size=4]Hi people

[color=blue]As I said before in my original thread, I don't like very much ROLLING HARRIERS with plane attitude of 10/20 degrees.
They would be very nice if the plane attitude was of 45/60 degrees. Then we would see the plane rolling like in a waltz.

[8D]Probably to do that, also 3D champions need a radio able to run a suitable software that sent the right inputs to the plane.

If you have been able to go to the moon, this is child's play.



[sm=thumbup.gif][color=#FF0000]DEAR 3D BEGINNERS, GOOD NEWS, VERY GOOD NEWS.

WE MUST MIX AILERONS TO RUDDER for hovering and torque rolling. Ailerons right, rudder left - Ailerons left, rudder right.

[&:]Hi-alfa? What are they? (Or: What they are?) Please correct me when I make mistakes.

[color=green]Vittorio from Italy[sm=sunsmiley.gif]a beautiful country.

Vittorio, good to see you finally got with the program.

*Hi-Alfa means high angle of attack (AOA) or as you say "plane attitude".
example: rolling harrier at 45/60 degrees = hi-alfa (nose points high)
rolling harrier at 10/20 degrees = no hi-alfa

You are correct to say:
"what are they"

You are correct to say:
"rolling harriers would be very nice if the plane attitude was of 45/60 degrees. Then we would see the plane rolling like in a waltz."
*When the plane attitude is of 45/60 degrees, it advances forward through the sky and through the roll, slowly and gracefully. Also it is easier to do, because your input timming is reduced.

You are not correct to say:
"Probably to do that, also 3D champions need a radio able to run a suitable software that sent the right inputs to the plane."
*The radio does nothing without somebody behind it to move the sticks. Angle of aircraft will vary (change) depending on your input. Also, you can do a hi-alfa rolling harrier into a torque roll. Also you can do a no hi-alfa rolling harrier with very low throttle and come down like a ladder. But only you give the correct inputs.

You are not correct to say:
"WE MUST MIX AILERONS TO RUDDER for hovering and torque rolling. Ailerons right, rudder left - Ailerons left, rudder right."
*It is not always necessary to mix. You must first see how your plane flies and how it reacts to rudder input. Some airplanes roll or pitch when rudder is deflected, then you could mix ailerons and/or rudder to correct for a nice flat rudder turn in both directions.

I concur. Joe

hi guys,just been reading the thread,some good advice and some not so good,heres a photo off my brother prop hanging his magic,i spent the day with him teaching him to prop hang lower than he normally does,the main part was getting the model to back up which can get tricky ,but hes there now.i think these type off aircraft are the best to start your 3d with.
mike

Hey mike thats quite impresive i was watching him getting lower and lower at the weekend! Not so sure people will like the footsteps on the strip lol .

See ya at the weekend

[8D]Hi people

[color=red]Hello johnnylightning

You said: "When the plane attitude is of 45/60 degrees, it advances forward through the sky and through the roll, slowly and gracefully. Also it is easier to do, because your input timming is reduced".

[&:][color=blue]I don't agree that 45/60 degrees_ROLLING HARRIERS are easier to do, because I have never seen them in any video.

I think it is very difficult (perhaps impossible) to follow a circular path while plane is slow rolling at 60 or more degrees attitude. You must control ailerons and engine too.
In usual_ROLLING HARRIERS (little hi-alfa) ailerons and engine inputs are fixed. They are a lot easier.

[color=red]I will change my idea if you tell me a web site to see hi-alfa_ROLLING HARRIERS.

Vittorio from Italy[sm=sunsmiley.gif]a beautiful country.

hey rc the wind was in that direction and no one was there,the strips ok to walk on,please dont tell the oldys i cant imagine the greif ill get.yeah see you saturday,goona take me extra down[8D]

Vittorio, I'm not gonna' spend too much time looking for footage on rolling harriers.

You've asked a question and I've answered it as best as I could, so, if you don't believe me, then it is up to you to prove me wrong. I am capable of performing rolling harriers, at any angle (0-89°), in both directions (L-R) and at any altitude, so I don't have to prove anything to you.

If you spend any amount of time in this forum and look for this information you will be able to see for yourself. But, you've gotta' look and that way you'll learn. I'll link a couple of videos here, however, you must view the videos in their entirety before you jump to your conclusions.

These are not the best examples of what we are discussing (they're just easily accessible to me). The pilots are extraordinary (far more advanced than myself), as well as their routine, however, the maneuver in question is performed at their liking (not yours) for this specific application. They too are more than capable of performing rolling harriers at any angle, direction and altitude.

When/if you learn to do the maneuver, you will see for yourself, that perhaps I am correct and if these videos aren't enough evidence, hopefully, for your sake, someone else will post a video that can prove to you that this is possible.

Don't start getting obnoxious...I'll see to it that this thred gets locked as well.

Note to viewers: If you frequent the forum, you may have already seen these videos, so spare yourselves the download.
1st: Kyle Woyshnis/H9 Funtana
2nd: George Hicks/E-TOC

http://www.rcsites.net/kyle300s/kyle%20hey%20ya.wmv

http://69.57.156.190/magazine/review...rgehicks-h.wmv

vittorio, just relax, the rolling harrier is probably the most difficult 3d manuver to pull off, I like your dedication and spirit - this is criticle to future success. If you believe you will become the best rolling harrier pilot in world - it will happen some day. for now focus your attention on hovering first which makes every other 3d manuver possible. everyone starts by hovering or trying to hover, in most cases there is way too much practice and not enough results. many people end up performing some 3d poorly but never master hovering. I want you to hover stationary for 10 minutes with rolls and waive to the crowd which is possible with mode 1, before you worry about other 3d stuff.

9 times out of 10 pilots loose it when they run out of rudder and the airplane falls off on knifedge. many others use too much throttle to keep the plane verticle and end up 10 miles high in a few seconds. try this:

1. don't hover directly in front of you, keep the airplane a few degrees off to the left.
2. pull to verticle let it settle 1 to 1 power at a safe distance.
3. you are holding some right aileron to prevent rolling, don't touch the throttle it has already been established
4. try to anticipate the airplanes next move and counter this with elevator and or rudder as needed.
5. within a few seconds your airplane will fall off on knifedge probably to the left - you will soon run out of rudder trying to keep it verticle.
6. release the ailerons and allow the airplane to rotate 1/4 turn to left and make your big correction with elevator to get it back verticle.
7. resume holding some right aileron to keep it from rotating any further. now you are looking mostely at bottom of plane - your rudder corections are now reversed, just like the ailerons are reversed when your airplane is flying toward you. remember how important it was to learn how to reverse the ailerons, well in 3d this is criticle for rudder. after awhile when you see the bottom of your plane your thumbs will react correctly without you knowing it.
8. when you get into trouble again, repeat step 6

many people are afraid to hover with high wind - for me this is most fun - it is not more difficult just different. instead of holding some right aileron hold some elevator to keep the nose into wind and airplane stationary. rudder will become less important as ailerons become more important to counter wing rock.

try this, and when I see you on the front cover of rc magazine hovering waiving to the crowd, you can move on the something else.

Pizza, at this point, I believe that you must clarify this as an assumption as to the fact that the plane has the torque to rotate. Depending on the engine/prop combo it is not always true. This may eliminate some confusion when transfering your excellent and equally respected advice to real time. Joe

[8D][size=4]Hi people

Hello Johnnylightning

[:@][color=blue]In my original thread,_www.Learning 3D step by step", you said:

[:@][color=blue][size=4]Now, in my new thread, you say:



This topic is mine and I enable everyone to say all craps they want. I will not lock the topic because I'm a free person.

If you think I am obnoxious, go away from this topic. The topic will become more and more interesting also without you.
You are too touchy.

[sm=thumbdown.gif]The two videos you signalized are too poor, with strange or little planes. Signalize to us beginners some videos of large TOC planes that do hi-alfa_ROLLING HARRIERS following a circular path (not on the snow or indoor, with planes that with a puff of air fall down).

Don't say too many craps.

[color=green]Vittorio from Italy[sm=sunsmiley.gif]a beautiful country.

Shock Flyers are excellent

Why does the ground, indoors or outdoors, or the size of the plane matter? The goal is to keep the aircraft in the air nomatter what.

Sure, a smaller inexpensive plane might be less costly if you crash it, but the $$$ is not the key, it's the technique.

Yes, Big TOC planes are pretty, and expensive, and that's about as far as it goes. The pilots have to be skilled and sure of themselves to do the same thing with their $15,000 40% Carden as you could do with a $45 shock flyer -- keep it off the ground.

The pilot in the video with the snow is extremely skilled, if you don't like the angle of his rolling harriers, oh well.

you also stated to show beginners big TOC planes that arent able to be blown over with a puff of air -- why? Like I said, they're pretty to look at, but "beginners" won't be learning and pacticing 3D with a $15,000 Airplane and 10 channel radio setup, most learn on a small plane, most never get a chance to ever control a 40% or bigger sized plane. I want to see stuff done that I know I can do with the gear that I have.

Tower Hobbies doesn't sell stick time or experience, trust me I've looked. Looks like I'll have to "practice, practice,practice".

[8D]Hi people

[color=blue]In those videos_ROLLING HARRIERS don't follow a circular path. That indoor plane is ridiculously little, like a paper plane.

The more planes are large, the more manoeuvers are impressive.

I will never spend a lot of money for my planes, but I'd like to see those great TOC planes doing hi-alfa_ROLLING HARRIERS, because Johnnylightning said it is very easy to do them.

[color=red]I don't agree with him. I THINK CIRCULAR HI-ALFA_ROLLING HARRIERS ARE VERY MUCH MORE MOST DIFFICULT.

[color=green]Vittorio from Italy[sm=sunsmiley.gif]a beautiful country.

Wow adrenalnjunky, very well composed.

[8D]Hi people

[color=blue]Hello Johnnylightning

As always, you don't understand.

[color=red]If you are seeing a "Pigi 3D" hovering in a toilet, I don't think you are astonished. It's a poor thing. If you are seeing a large 3D Edge 540 hovering at one feet off the ground, excitement is really great.

I can't still hover with my Magic 3D, but as a "3D flying arts" critic, I'm waiting to see some good videos of hi-alfa_ROLLING HARRIERS following a circular path.

[color=blue]I hope somebody can help. Till now I have seen a lot of videos of planes only hovering or doing low-alfa_Rolling Harriers (ugly in my opinion), or planes that look like leaves in the storm.

It doesn't matter I can't still hover. I'd like to see something exciting.

[color=green]Vittorio from Italy[sm=sunsmiley.gif]a beautiful country.

i can hover it flyer. very well. isnt that nice

[8D]Hi people

[color=red]Hello incredible-engine

Please, learn to write well: "I can hover Italian Flyer, very well. Isn't that nice?"

[color=blue]You can already hover. What a pity. By now you have no longer the excitement to make it.


[8D]DEAR 3D BEGINNERS, IF YOU STILL CAN'T HOVER DON'T LOSE HEART.

I have seen the video of Sebastiano Silvestri (Italian champion) with his_Funtana 140 S. He still can't do hi-alfa_ROLLING HARRIERS.
In his low-alfa_ROLLING HARRIERS his plane looks like a wounded bird that has difficulty to fly away.

I am waiting to see fine videos.

[color=green]Vittorio from Italy[sm=sunsmiley.gif]a beautiful country.

I can hover. Joe

ity bitty.

first off id lie to thanks you on calling me incredible-engine. yes, i agree, i am incredible. also, im highly offended because you split my name using a - and not a _.

i still get excited when i hover. as i come close to me, maby two feet away. I also go low, maby between 24-0 inches. also i get worrid that if i muck up, the plane may fall back onto me, given the proportions of the plane and of myself, hovering at two feet of the deck, falling backwards the APC 10x5 prop spinning at about 8000rpm would slice strat thru my gut. nice thought eh?

also, youll be looking long and hard for a high-alpha_ROLLING HARRIER. possibly cos if people do them they look terrible. the roll slows and everything mushes untill it hits the ground

[8D]Then Johnnylightning says craps telling that he can do_Rolling Circles at any plane attitude.

Good night

Vittorio

he says that, but how well can he do them at that 73* angle???????




sorry jonny, didnt read all of this page so i didnt know you said that[:-]