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Crickets....

Old 09-15-2020, 04:02 AM
  #551  
astrohog
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I think you have a great start there! I would maybe add a paragraph regarding STEM and kids and modelers growing up to be pilots and astronauts.

AND I would like to thank-you and recognize you for stepping up and reaching out to your local lawmakers! (The dark side here will not likely give you any credit, they will just accuse you of [email protected]
and whining and not doing anything! )

Astro
Old 09-15-2020, 04:33 AM
  #552  
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Hate to say it but I'm not sure what STEM is. The part about kids and aviation/science would be an easy addition to make. Just have to figure out where and how to add it in.
As far as the dark side goes, I could care less what they think. The dirt eating piece of crap that thinks he's special has maintained that anyone that's not an AMA member is worthless. The way I see it, I'm following through on a statement I made a few weeks ago, quoted at the top of my previous post. I'd love to see others do the same. It's just too bad that some won't see the point or figure the AMA is going to save the hobby for them, something we all know is just a pipe dream since the AMA is only trying to save itself at this point

Last edited by Hydro Junkie; 09-15-2020 at 04:39 AM.
Old 09-15-2020, 06:22 AM
  #553  
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Science Technology Engineering and Math

Old 09-15-2020, 08:50 AM
  #554  
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Originally Posted by BarracudaHockey View Post
Science Technology Engineering and Math
Yep , the modern updating of our "Three Rs" , , , , Readin , Ritin , and Rithmatic
Old 09-15-2020, 10:09 AM
  #555  
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LOL indeed

We need an avenue to drive more kids into STEM programs, the hero's when I grew up, the Mercury 7, Neil Armstrong etc are long gone
Old 09-15-2020, 11:04 AM
  #556  
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Originally Posted by init4fun View Post
Yep , the modern updating of our "Three Rs" , , , , Readin , Ritin , and Rithmatic
I think society would be better off focusing on those three (especially the readin’ part!), rather than the crap they teach to now.

Astro
Old 09-15-2020, 01:54 PM
  #557  
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I would have to agree, STEM and reading are definitely lacking in the younger crowd these days. HELL, it's a crime how bad people coming out of school are when it comes to the basics. I see the math skills that I had to know in the third grade that people that graduated from high school can't do. Understanding high school level reading is sketchy at best. I wouldn't even let many of the people at work help me build a plastic model as they can't figure out the diagrams in the instructions. I think it's come down to "just get them through the system" more than it is teaching them how to do the basics. Even learning how to write in long hand has been dropped in many school districts. Many of the courses that had to be taken have been dropped in favor of teaching students to use computers while spelling has been changed to "text slang", maybe not in school but in life. I could see the problem starting back in 1989. I had just got out of the Navy and was working as a convenience store cashier. Had two girls(both seniors in the local high school) come in one night and asked how much it would cost to buy two candy bars and two cans of Coke. Back then, it was $.59 for a candy bar and $.89 for a can of soda, regardless of who made it. Anyway, I asked them why they couldn't figure that out and the answer I got was "I don't have my calculator with me". I then made them both look bad by going through the following formula:
two candy bars, rounded up to .60 makes $1.20
two Cokes, rounded up to .90 makes $1.80
add that together and you get $3.00
tax is 9 cents per dollar, times three for a total of .27. Subtract the four cents you rounded up for a total of .23
add the $3.00 and $.23 and you get $3.23. When I rang the purchase up, I was off by a whopping $.01.
When the total came up on the register, the girls looked at me, totally shocked, and asked "How did you do that?" My answer was "I just used my brain and basic math, something you should be able to do by the time you both graduate".
Needless to say, that totally upset them and they walked out, leaving the candy and Coke on the counter while being laughed at by other customers. Even in my own family, my youngest brother signed up for a math class during his senior year of high school. His class was told, by the instructor, that they had to have a list of items by the end of the first week or they would be dropped from the class. First thing on the list was a CASIO SCIENTIFIC CALCULATOR!!!!!!! Back in the late 1980s, that was a very expensive item and it got a very fast visit to the school by my mother. When asked why students had to have THAT SPECIFIC CALCULATOR, the teacher replied that it was needed for some of the math the students should either already know or didn't need to learn as it wasn't part of the curriculum. The instructor then repeated that everyone in the class had to have one or be dropped so, grudgingly, she went and bought the required calculator and sent off a letter to the school board complaining about it. Needless to say, she never got a response.
Old 09-15-2020, 02:06 PM
  #558  
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Originally Posted by BarracudaHockey View Post
LOL indeed

We need an avenue to drive more kids into STEM programs, the hero's when I grew up, the Mercury 7, Neil Armstrong etc are long gone
Andy, you surprised me a bit. I figured that my "talking down" about the AMA in my rough draft would have gotten a negative response. I appreciate the fact that you didn't give said negative response but am also curious as to why? Could you enlighten me on this one please? It would be much appreciated as well
Old 09-15-2020, 02:49 PM
  #559  
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Originally Posted by Hydro Junkie View Post
I would have to agree, STEM and reading are definitely lacking in the younger crowd these days. HELL, it's a crime how bad people coming out of school are when it comes to the basics. I see the math skills that I had to know in the third grade that people that graduated from high school can't do. Understanding high school level reading is sketchy at best. I wouldn't even let many of the people at work help me build a plastic model as they can't figure out the diagrams in the instructions. I think it's come down to "just get them through the system" more than it is teaching them how to do the basics. Even learning how to write in long hand has been dropped in many school districts. Many of the courses that had to be taken have been dropped in favor of teaching students to use computers while spelling has been changed to "text slang", maybe not in school but in life. I could see the problem starting back in 1989. I had just got out of the Navy and was working as a convenience store cashier. Had two girls(both seniors in the local high school) come in one night and asked how much it would cost to buy two candy bars and two cans of Coke. Back then, it was $.59 for a candy bar and $.89 for a can of soda, regardless of who made it. Anyway, I asked them why they couldn't figure that out and the answer I got was "I don't have my calculator with me". I then made them both look bad by going through the following formula:
two candy bars, rounded up to .60 makes $1.20
two Cokes, rounded up to .90 makes $1.80
add that together and you get $3.00
tax is 9 cents per dollar, times three for a total of .27. Subtract the four cents you rounded up for a total of .23
add the $3.00 and $.23 and you get $3.23. When I rang the purchase up, I was off by a whopping $.01.
When the total came up on the register, the girls looked at me, totally shocked, and asked "How did you do that?" My answer was "I just used my brain and basic math, something you should be able to do by the time you both graduate".
Needless to say, that totally upset them and they walked out, leaving the candy and Coke on the counter while being laughed at by other customers. Even in my own family, my youngest brother signed up for a math class during his senior year of high school. His class was told, by the instructor, that they had to have a list of items by the end of the first week or they would be dropped from the class. First thing on the list was a CASIO SCIENTIFIC CALCULATOR!!!!!!! Back in the late 1980s, that was a very expensive item and it got a very fast visit to the school by my mother. When asked why students had to have THAT SPECIFIC CALCULATOR, the teacher replied that it was needed for some of the math the students should either already know or didn't need to learn as it wasn't part of the curriculum. The instructor then repeated that everyone in the class had to have one or be dropped so, grudgingly, she went and bought the required calculator and sent off a letter to the school board complaining about it. Needless to say, she never got a response.
Back when I was CFI'ing, companies like Sporty's were just coming out with electronic E6B's. Every student pilot went out and bought one. And I would make every student I had put the thing away and pull out an actual, manual E6B. Many would get quite upset at this, telling me that I 'needed to catch up with the times'. My response was always "what are you going to do when the batteries die?". A few, however would actually take the time to learn how to work the classic 'whizz wheel'. I don't know if it was reason of just correlation, but they also tended to be the most serious about their flying, and never had an issue during FAA check rides. I think it really had more to do with laziness than anything else, same as in schools today.

R_Strowe
Old 09-15-2020, 03:24 PM
  #560  
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E6B? Is that the wheel card used to calculate wind drift and true ground speed? If so, learning to use that was a joke due to the simplicity. Just remember, I'm going back at least 40 years on that one so not remembering the number IS TO BE UNDERSTOOD since I haven't seen one in that long.

Just had a thought. I've seen several You tubers post about their flying privately owned aircraft. What seems to be a common element now days is using an Ipad with nav apps. Seems like they don't want to fly anymore, just punch in what their apps tell them to

Last edited by Hydro Junkie; 09-15-2020 at 04:01 PM.
Old 09-15-2020, 04:45 PM
  #561  
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I admit, when I was first introduced to the E6B in my "ground school" class, I was intimidated. Turns out, it is not as intimidating as it looks and is very easy to use. By learning to use the E6B, I believe I really learned and understood what I was doing and had a better understanding of all the variables involved.

Just like the calculator scenario posed above, once one actually LEARNS and UNDERSTANDS the theories and can prove proficiency in using them does the electronic calculator or computer become beneficial. If you are only taught what buttons to push in order to get the desired outcome, it will be difficult to actually use in real-life scenarios.

Problem today is that those who CAN'T comprehend these concepts just claim some sort of learning disability, or cry foul, saying that it isn't FAIR that SOME "get it" and others don't, somehow forcing the curriculum to be dumbed down to the lowest common denominator (PUN INTENDED!).

Astro
Old 09-15-2020, 06:10 PM
  #562  
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And there in lies the problem. A majority of the people at work have smart phones that they rely on for everything. Most haven't had to do basic math since they got out of elementary school so when it comes to basic conversions of electrical resistance from micro to milli to ohms to kilos to megas, they can't figure out how and where to move the decimal point. What really makes things fun is when they have to use a Fluke DMM. First thing they want to do is start pushing buttons, not knowing what the buttons actually do. On the Fluke 87, the resistance setting shares its location with capacitance, changed just by pushing a button. I had someone literally spend 20 minutes trying to figure out what was wrong with the meter because the display was showing uF rather than ohms.
Old 09-16-2020, 12:48 AM
  #563  
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Originally Posted by Hydro Junkie View Post
E6B? Is that the wheel card used to calculate wind drift and true ground speed? If so, learning to use that was a joke due to the simplicity. Just remember, I'm going back at least 40 years on that one so not remembering the number IS TO BE UNDERSTOOD since I haven't seen one in that long.

Just had a thought. I've seen several You tubers post about their flying privately owned aircraft. What seems to be a common element now days is using an Ipad with nav apps. Seems like they don't want to fly anymore, just punch in what their apps tell them to
Yep, that’s the one. I’ve got a nice aluminum one, but they made them out of all sorts of materials. All it is is a slide rule shaped in a circle.

And you aren’t far off about the newer generation of pilots. I’ve seen the younger ones turn down employment at my prior airline because they only flew the CRJ200, which has an FMS system, was otherwise a manual airplane (no vertical nav, for example). They would take the job at a carrier that paid less, because they wanted to fly an airplane with ‘all the gadgets’. You should see how they are when they get into a BIG airplane (like the B767).

Even the FAA has finally recognized that basic airmanship skills are very much lacking in the new-hire airline world. There is way too much reliance on automation. Personally I have the same issue with R/C and all of these stabilization systems. They have their place, but not in the training environment.

R_Strowe
Old 09-16-2020, 01:00 AM
  #564  
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Originally Posted by astrohog View Post
I admit, when I was first introduced to the E6B in my "ground school" class, I was intimidated. Turns out, it is not as intimidating as it looks and is very easy to use. By learning to use the E6B, I believe I really learned and understood what I was doing and had a better understanding of all the variables involved.

And the best part is if the batteries go dead on an E6B, you have much bigger problems than figuring out crosswind correction or leg time!

Just like the calculator scenario posed above, once one actually LEARNS and UNDERSTANDS the theories and can prove proficiency in using them does the electronic calculator or computer become beneficial. If you are only taught what buttons to push in order to get the desired outcome, it will be difficult to actually use in real-life scenarios.

Exactly. It was usually an uphill battle at first, but most of my students actually came back to me years later and thanked me for a lot of things, including understanding the basics and not leaning too much on the technology.

Problem today is that those who CAN'T comprehend these concepts just claim some sort of learning disability, or cry foul, saying that it isn't FAIR that SOME "get it" and others don't, somehow forcing the curriculum to be dumbed down to the lowest common denominator (PUN INTENDED!).

And luckily in my case, my bosses supported me when, on the rare occasion I had to tell a student that maybe this flying thing was not something they should do.

Astro

I do know of people who are very intelligent, yet certain concepts simply evaded them. One of the things we have done to our society and our kids is instill the concept that ‘you can do anything‘. (I’m not saying you, just making a generalization). Unfortunately this could not be further from the truth.

R_Strowe

Last edited by R_Strowe; 09-16-2020 at 01:02 AM.
Old 09-16-2020, 05:53 AM
  #565  
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Originally Posted by R_Strowe View Post
I do know of people who are very intelligent, yet certain concepts simply evaded them. One of the things we have done to our society and our kids is instill the concept that ‘you can do anything‘. (I’m not saying you, just making a generalization). Unfortunately this could not be further from the truth.

R_Strowe
Unfortunately, we are failing to educate our kids. The rest of the world is more motivated and doing the work necessary to turn out the brightest talent. Meanwhile, we just burn our cities down if we don't get what we want. SAD, indeed.

Sad that pilots are ill-prepared. My sister in law is an Orthopedic surgeon (second generation, from a LONG line of health care professionals) and she says the same about the younger generation of doctors, nurses, PA's, etc., etc. I see it everywhere we go, yet it would seem that we just continue to pander to those who just "won't".

As far as the 'you can do anything" thing, we are also doing our best to make that come true as well.....I mean, a male, Olympic medal-winning athlete can win woman of the year......when we put feminine hygiene products in male restrooms for those of us men, 'that have that time of the month', I would say we're getting pretty close to achieving anything we want. Next thing will be the sickly, short, uncoordinated kid who sues the NBA for discrimination for not granting him a multi-million dollar contract..

But I digress from the model thing...

Astro
Old 09-16-2020, 06:30 AM
  #566  
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I would disagree, Astro. The kids are learning, just not the right lessons. When you really think about it, what are we teaching our kids? I see this:
  • If you complain loud and long enough, someone will give you what you want
  • Being able to "keep up with the neighbors" isn't just a dream or a goal, it's a requirement to be successful
  • Credit cards are to be maxed out and ignored until you can declare bankruptcy so you don't have to pay them off
  • A new car will be yours every three years for just a signature on a contract that you can cancel any time you find something better
  • Going to class is something to do to show off your latest prize, not for learning
  • (S)He with the best smart phone will always be the winner in any situation
I could go on, but why? People like the wife and I are dinosaurs. We don't have:
  • the latest and greatest smart phone
  • the newest car on the block, or $500+ lease payments
  • a stack of maxed out credit cards
  • two or more mortgages
  • a 35+ foot RV to show off at the local campground
We also don't have kids looking for a hand out because they think they are "entitled" to it. We let the neighbors have them since they seem to be everything the wife and I aren't
Old 09-16-2020, 09:01 AM
  #567  
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Originally Posted by Hydro Junkie View Post
I would disagree, Astro. The kids are learning, just not the right lessons.
LOL

I guess I should have clarified learning...

Astro
Old 09-16-2020, 03:34 PM
  #568  
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No, you didn't need to clarify anything. We all know that kids now days feel like they are "entitled" to everything and anything they want due to the way they are treated. Deny a kid anything and they run to CPS and say they are being abused and want to be taken to someplace better(been there seen that). Actually heard a variation of that from a young kid at a cell phone store in a local mall. Another kid showed up at school with a very expensive smart phone and this kid didn't want to be shown up. Mom was going to get him a basic flip phone and the kid threw a fit, it wouldn't be as good as so and so's phone, the model that he just had to have. Mom just looked at him and said "If you want a phone, I'll buy you this. Otherwise, you do without." When the kid heard that, he looked around, saw mall security and started screaming to get the guard's attention. When the guard came running over, the kid claimed she was trying to "kidnap" him and she was handcuffed and taken to the security office. Needless to say, the police and the father were both called and, when they all arrived and the truth came out, the kid ended up being taken to a juvenile facility for two weeks(at least that's what the police officer told him on the way out of the mall). Sounds to me that someone told the kid how to get his way and she called his bluff, resulting in a big scene and the kid's introduction to the juvenile legal system
Old 09-17-2020, 05:56 AM
  #569  
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NOT GOOD!!!
https://www.cleveland.com/tribe/2020...ley-field.html
Old 09-17-2020, 06:05 AM
  #570  
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Yea, I heard about that.
Old 09-17-2020, 07:16 AM
  #571  
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Originally Posted by fliers1 View Post
I think I'm going to try and start collecting every news story I can find with these drone incidents, and collate the type of aircraft involved. Anyone want to make any wagers on what the vast majority will be?

And the purpose will be to submit this information to my Senators and Representatives, to demonstrate that the FAA (and them, for that matter) that the law, DHS and the FAA have grossly overstepped and overreacted to the dangers posed by traditional model airplanes and helicopters.

R_Strowe
Old 09-17-2020, 07:57 AM
  #572  
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That drone pilot oughtta join the AMA.
Old 09-17-2020, 11:18 AM
  #573  
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Originally Posted by astrohog View Post
That drone pilot oughtta join the AMA.
That drone pilot oughta be in jail, or at least fined into oblivion.

R_Strowe
Old 09-17-2020, 03:30 PM
  #574  
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Just something else to add to my rough draft. Okay guys, here's an updated version:
As members of the US Senate, I'm sure you see many issues come up on the floor. I would like to address another that needs to be brought up.
Between the FAA and Congress, an activity that has been around for at least 70 years is being regulated into history. That activity is Model Aviation. This is an activity that started out with uncontrolled aircraft, moved on to control line and eventually to the radio controlled aircraft we have today. Through much of that time, an organization called the Academy of Model Aeronautics has been in existence as a place to get plans, assistance and information on building and flying aircraft as well as insurance. The AMA has also picked up the task of "lobbying" Congress in support of the activity. Unfortunately, due to some of the actions taken by the AMA in the recent past, Congress and the FAA have set a path that will see the hobby of building and flying R/C aircraft become a thing of the past. Something else to consider is how many school age children and teens could become interested in aviation and science due to exposure to the principles they would have to learn to be able to build and fly an R/C airplane.
The FAA has recently mandated that the flying of R/C aircraft will be illegal over 400 feet about the ground and is looking into limiting the locations to some of the existing model airfields. This has serious implications to the hobby:
  • The airfields are all controlled by organizations that are aligned with the AMA and will require membership to both the organization and the AMA just to fly. This will cost those that are active in the community a significant amount of money BEFORE they would be allowed to fly the first time. More importantly, the costs of membership to both the AMA and the organization that operates the flying field can prevent someone from getting into the activity. Planes, radio gear and the associated ground support gear are not cheap so being forced to add another $150 or more can and will prevent people from joining this historic activity
  • Many aircraft models are now sold for use at parks and/or play fields. Being made of molded foam, they are marketed as being safe for people to fly with little or no instruction by the industry. People buying these planes would now be required to join the organizations that control the flying fields AND THE AMA or be in violation of the proposed regulations. Worse still, most won't know or understand these regulations, resulting in people being prosecuted for what they didn't know and further burdening the court system when it can be easily avoided
  • The regulations being looked into will have little to no effect on those that have or plan on buying multi-rotored vehicles(drones) as they don't require a large area to take off or land. It is these "drones" that are the actual problem and not conventional model aircraft or helicopters. It was a drone flown from the Seattle Center that did circles around the Space Needle's observation deck and was used to look into apartments in downtown Seattle as well as cause a dangerous situation for several FAA recognized helipads, some being at hospitals. It was a drone that flew into the "Big Wheel", at the Seattle waterfront within weeks of the first incident. Now we have the latest incidents, a drone flying into a Twins vs Pirates game on September 5th, another flying over a Yankees vs Rays game on September 2nd , a third over Fenway Park stopping a Red Sox vs Rays game on August 14th while another landed on the center field of a Wrigley Field, stopping a Cubs vs Indians game on September 16. These events show how the FAA's "broad brush" approach to all of R/C aviation is missing the target, that being drones.
As you can probably see, the safety issues of model aviation are not with the conventional aircraft but, rather, with the proliferation of drones and the ease in which they can be flown and the ease in which the operator can pack up and "disappear" before anyone from the local police or sheriff's office can get to the location the operator was flying from.
At this time I would request a chance to talk with you about the issue and see if there is some way to prevent the hobby from becoming a thing of the past while protecting our national airspace
Thank You for your time

Last edited by Hydro Junkie; 09-17-2020 at 04:02 PM.
Old 09-17-2020, 06:29 PM
  #575  
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Anybody else notice that when Speed is proven wrong and has an unpopular opinion he just goes all ostrich?

Lame.

Astro

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