Bureaucracy takes time to wade through there Speedy. Be patient. I think you'll be surprised. Not happy, but surprised.

And when you tell stories about me, you might want to check your facts. The business plan I gave the AMA way back is not the reason I am no longer a member. Never was. And even the original reason is no longer the primary one. I truth, there are multiple reasons. But in short, the AMA simply holds no value for me anymore. I would think you could understand that? I would also think someone who knows so much about "adhisives" would be able to keep facts better than that.

My! My! How my monster has grown over the years. And two heads too! Now there's a letter full of foul language? And in spite of being tight lipped, I have posted details of the plan elsewhere. And received praise for it from a number of AMA faithful. I just don't care to constantly repeat myself for the ignorant.

Bottom line is, you weren't there. You do not know! I suggest you get your facts straight and stop making up stories about people.

May want to review your approach then.


MBA and PhD both in Organizational Management. I think I know the way.

BBB wasn't my idea. I would start by looking at IRS rules and maybe the SEC and a few others.


When the President of the AMA calls all non-members rogues and suggests they're criminals who should be prosecuted, how am I not a stake holder?
Hanson Rant

As for the FAA, I am in compliance with the law. That is all you or anyone need to know.


I'm glad for you. When I visit a new (to me) club I like to time how long it takes before they start talking club and AMA membership. Sometimes it's almost immediately. Often it's in the first 5 minutes. I don't go back to those clubs as IMO their main interest is in more members/money and not the hobby itself. But if I can start out spending a half hour talking to someone about airplanes, that club may be a keeper. Not many like that in my neck of the woods.

Passport expired and no desire to renew it.

I've spent a few days thinking about how I would respond to your post and I have finally figured it out and it comes down to basically a few thoughts:
1) Whether I'm a member or not is irrelevant. How I spend my money is also irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
2) How the AMA spends the money they receive from members and the results of the money spent is very relevant.

Now, let me address #2:
The AMA officers and staff are spending millions of dollars and really getting nothing in return. They are overstaffed due to having people actively working on things that are nothing more than white elephants. Here's my take on what's going on in Muncie:
1) Having several people running a history/records department is ludicrous. How often are things of historical value received or records set? To pay people to do nothing for at least 90% of the time makes no sense.
2) Running a retail department is also ludicrous. The AMA's job is to lobby for model aviation, be a source of information on model aviation and be a source of liability insurance. To have a retail department with a paid staff makes no sense either. It would be one thing is they sold items that people need or really want but, that said, they don't run an online hobby supply site, there isn't enough people using the facilities in Muncie to open a hobby shop at that location and it's a known fact that the local hobby shops are dying a slow death due to the internet.
3) Why does Muncie pay a full time staff to maintain the grounds? Contracting out to a grounds maintenance company and have them come in as needed would be much more cost effective. They wouldn't need to pay a staff or store, maintain and supply fuel for the equipment
4) Why does Muncie need to build an indoor flying facility? Some on the executive committee feel this is a needed project with no real means to make it cost effective. When you consider that the flying field is rarely used, why do they need to build another facility at the cost of several hundred thousand dollars?
5) Earlier this year, one of the officers decided there needed to be a board meeting. Even though almost the entire board was at an event on the west coast, this officer claimed the meeting HAD TO BE IN MUNCIE!!!!! He felt the meeting had to have the Muncie staff on hand to facilitate the meeting. This would also mean that the officers would have to travel to Muncie while getting all of their expenses paid out of the AMA's treasury. Where is the logic to this? It was nothing more than a way to get a vacation paid for by the members. Then again, why can't the officers hold a meeting over skype or similar? Many new computers have this capability right out of the box or can have it downloaded in. It would be much more cost effective to have meetings held this way than have all of the officers travel to Muncie several times per year and cost the members over $100,000 per year in reimbursement.

Now, let's get back to the "Am I a Hater" question. As far as the AMA goes, I have nothing against it or what is stands for. When it was founded, it was probably one of the best resources around for people both experienced and new to the hobby. This was a very good thing for everyone.
Decades later, it's now like a boat or RV, something you throw money at to keep it going. Being someone that has an RV, I know how expensive it is to maintain one and how to spend my maintenance funds wisely. The officers and staff have forgotten what it means to be fiscally responsible and that is the first place where I have an issue. Spending money, just because you have it to spend, is something I can not tolerate by officers and staff of an organization that is funded by dues paying members. Just as important is the requirements needed to become an officer. Only leader members can be officers and, to be a leader member, you must be given that position by the officers. This means that the officers can pick and choose who they want in positions of power and, apparently, that means people of like mind are the ones that will be chosen to to be in the position of leader member. To expand on that a bit further, that means that no one from the general membership has any real say into what's happening as their only recourse is to contact their area VP and hope their words actually get to the board for discussion. This is the second place I have an issue.
Now, let's go on to my third issue. For this, I need to go back in time to July, 1945. WWII is winding down with Germany defeated, Italy defected to the allies and Japan is down to just the home islands. The cruiser USS Indianapolis had just delivered the first atomic bomb to the Marianas Islands and was headed for the Philippines, a trip she would never finish due to Japanese submarine torpedoes. Of 1196 men aboard, 900 would make it into the water but only 316 would be rescued. No one knew she was missing until the pilot of a PV-1 patrol bomber on a routine antisubmarine patrol saw men in the water. To make it simple, the war had gotten so large and the Indianapolis' mission so secret that she had gotten lost in the red tape. That's exactly what's happening in the AMA. The organization has gotten so large that the individual members have gotten lost in the red tape. Several have tried to contact the AMA office with questions and have gotten non-answers or no answers for their time. Franklin has referred to at least twice where he's contacted the AMA office and got no results or non-answers.
Let me wrap this up with this:
"Again I ask are you even an AMA member or just a hater." Whether I'm a member or not is not the issue, it's whether I hate the AMA or not. I don't hate the AMA for what it was. It was originally a very beneficial organization. What I do hate is what the AMA has become. It's become a money pit and "Good Ol' Boys" club that thinks it's a be all end all organization. In my opinion, it's outlived it's usefulness and should be closed down as a relic of the past since it's not looking to the future of model aviation, just it's own survival

All I can say to that is action speaks louder than words!!!!!! but as I have said you not being a member,shareholder or stakeholder have no recourse.


I read the link you posted and at no time did he refer to non members as being rogues only those who refused to follow the rules. To me it’s reads very simple, at the time the letter is written there were only 2 sets of rules. Follow one or the other and you are compliant. The rogues as you put it are not non members of the AMA but those who refuse to follow one or the other of the rules in place. Since the only entity that has the authority to enforce those rules is the FAA Mr. Hanson recommends those not in compliance be fined and prosecuted. In this notice you can be in compliance if you fly within the rules and safety guidelines of a recognised CBO. As far as I can see it does not require membership in the CBO just that you know, understand and comply with the directive of that CBO which happens to be the AMA.



As far as your compliance with the law I wouldn’t expect anything less I only stated if one had not registered then they would not be in compliance.

Been actively flying in the US for over 15 years mostly on a drop in basis hoping to meet the everyday flyer not just the event buffs and with either group I have never heard the topic go to club or AMA membership other than asking to see your AMA card. I show my MAAC card and sometimes the letter of Reciprocal Agreement between MAAC and the AMA and I good to go. Sometimes a club executive who is not familiar will contact the AMA to confirm what I have told them but again I have no problem with any club making sure everything is proper.



Perhaps that’s for the best eh!!!!!!!

This in fact is the only and most important issue. If your not a member you have absolutely no opinion that would mean squat. Even if so inclined you would not be entitled to do anything about it except whine about what you perceived to be the injustice being served upon the membership. Is this what you are doing????? A non member has no rights or obligations to the entity in question.



If on the other hand you are a member then you have every right to question anything to do with the organization. However you must accept that majority rules. The expenses and day to day business of the AMA are not of any concern to me so you are wasting your time attempting to draw me into a discussion on the subject. I am only concerned with the ability to fly as I always have at AMA fields. That is the only place I will fly at when I am in your country as it’s the only place my insurance will cover me.

I don't have to be a member to know that the AMA and having a membership isn't worth the money.
I don't have to be a member to know that, the way the AMA is set up right now, majority rules IS NOT how the organization is being run. It was documented that less than one third of the members voted in the last election and that the election was tampered with by the EC and the editor of the AMA's own publication
I don't have to be a member to know that SOMEONE FROM CANADA HAS NO MORE BUSINESS IN THIS THREAD THAN ANY OTHER MODELER, LESS SO THAN SOMEONE THAT LIVES IN THE US
I don't have to be a member to know that the AMA is a mismanaged "Good Old Boy" organization that's not kept up with the times, technology or what people want.
I don't have to be a member to know that what the FAA does is much more important than what the AMA says
All this brings me back to my statement that whether I'm a member or not is not the issue, never was and never will be.

What benefits?
Insurance that might kick in after your own liability insurance is done?
Being able to fly at specific locations ?
A scandal rag used to spread propaganda?
Where are the benefits?

They will never get it. Just like the wind howling outside. Nothing you can do to stop it but in the end it means nothing. As far as the claim they never get an answer from the AMA my experience tells me otherwise. I emailed a question (of course I included my MAAC number) and had a reply in less than 4 hours. The AMA is operating correctly in ignoring non members like Junkie. He obviously has an burr in his azz about the AMA that's been festering for a long long time. He should see someone about it and get it fixed then he probably would sleep better at night.

Let me answer that for ya Junkie listen close I don't want to have to repeat myself
Insurance? I have my own through MAAC 7.5 million personal liability first party if you even know what that means. Without AMA you would not be welcome to fly at any MAAC club in Canada.
Yep being able to fly and be welcome where you are not.
Magazine is not necessary the info/news is usually on the web site but being old school I enjoy having it in hard copy. Yes I do pick up the magazine from the hobby shop when I remember and I pay for that privilege.
I participated as the pilot for 9 years for the University of Windsor SAE Aerodesign Team which over the years took home some nice accolades something you as a non member would never have the opportunity.
I take a trailer load of models with me when I travel and map out/contact if I can just about every club along my route. Last one was 3 weeks long and I flew at an average of 2 AMA clubs each day. I met more fellow flyers than you could shake a stick at and they were all AMA members, gracious and welcoming just like the MAAC members in Canada. For all you could tell there was no us or them just guys who enjoyed the same thing "flying model planes".
I have a friend who winters in Sarasota Florida for 6 months a year and he belongs to the local club. You need a card to access the field through a gate I followed him in and flew my models for the day again something you would not be able to do. I was even asked to test fly a fellows model because I was crazying around with my 1/3 Pitts. I asked the members if they were ok with that and was given the thumbs up. Flew it, trimmed it, turned it over to the owner who flew and landed it. He had no problem just a little intimidated by a larger model than he was used to. No one else wanted to maiden it. Something else you would never be invited to do. The next day we visited a different near by club, neither of us were members but because of our MAAC membership we were both welcomed and flew the better part of the day. The next day I headed for Deland Florida and stopped at another friends winter getaway and I flew at his club as a guest. I then headed to Deland and flew the 4 days of the SAE competition and our team took everything in our division.



Yes there are many benefits I enjoy compliments of the AMA and I'm not even a member.

Dennis

To be fair,PW, I'd rather belong to the MAAC than the AMA. I have friends in BC and Alberta that have asked me to come up and spend some time both boating and flying with them. Not counting the gas to get to Calgary, it's probably cheaper for me to fly in Canada than pay the AMA to fly here

Flying in Canada you come under almost identical rules. First you cannot join MAAC unless you are a member in your home country first. We cannot join the AMA without joining MAAC first. Both in Canada and the US you will be an associate member with no rights to vote, take office etc.Since the rules here have tightened up if your at a MAAC field you will be asked to produce your AMA card before you will be allowed to fly. If you fly on your own which you can you must stick to an altitude level, speed and weight just like you have to in your country. In Canada offenders have already been charged and have had to attend the courts so its not any different than at home. Sorry to burst your bubble.

And if you do not follow the rules in Canada you are also considered a rogue flyer and there will be no sympathy if you are charged.

Agreed! Where are they?

But instead:
You're not AMA so you must be a hater!
You're not AMA so you must break the rules and laws!
You're not AMA so you must be bitter and hold a grudge!
You're not AMA so you no doubt seek revenge!
You're not AMA so you must not promote the hobby!
You're not AMA so you don't have a dog in this fight!

And it goes on.

But if you ARE AMA.........
You probably don't let the facts interfere with your story.

But I do have a dog in this fight:
1) I'm an R/C modeler and hobbiest that builds boats and planes, among other things
2) I'm a member of NAMBA, a much better run organization than the AMA that also does the same things but at a much lower cost and using fewer people, something the AMA should look at but won't
3) I run my boats all over the country, just like Speed and Propworm do with their aircraft. The plan for this year is to run in Georgia and not just in my own back yard
4) Just like Speed and Propworm, I spend serious money on my models, my average nitro engine with exhaust runs me over $750 each, my 27cc gasser is over $1200
5) Unlike some, I do look at value received per dollar spent. That is why I still use a Futaba 9CAP on an FM channel rather than replace it with a 2.4 that won't do any more than what I have. That is also why I run my boats with a non-FASST Futaba radio. FASST just isn't worth double the cost in my book

Ah! So not expressing appreciation makes me a hater?

You keep throwing up individual local events and claiming them to be the nationwide norm. I do not believe it is. While many, maybe even most clubs do some form of community service events. AMA membership trends would suggest it isn't working. Simple as that.

Believe it or not, your club doing something like that is NOT the AMA doing it. And your club doing it places it on such a small scale as to be invisible to the rest of the nation. And what's worse, by your own admission it's not your club but rather "a group of guys". No different than when I gave a bunch of cloths to the homeless on the streets of DC. Except my contribution was probably far more useful to the struggling than yours.

And if the family is truly struggling, why give them toys? Why not food or even a job? Something to give them a hand up. Maybe let them move into your house with you? Isn't your state going sanctuary state wide?

Yep! I agree. What the AMA does impacts non-members as well. AND what non-members do impacts the AMA as well. The difference is AMA members for some reason believe their poop don't stink.

It looks like the FAA is going to release a set of rules for recreational use with altitude, possibly speed and distance from structure and people. This appears to cover all recreational flying. The FAA is making the rules not the AMA.

The AMA petitions for a waiver to these limits for members only. How does this effect you the non member. The AMA didn’t have anything to do with your predicament.

AAA petitions for waivers to the speed limit for its members. How does that impact non member drivers?
Ditto for boats. airplanes, motorcycles and anything using public spaces for transport or recreation.

Fact is, it is unconstitutional for the US government to favor a group of people in any way based on membership in an organization. Socialist Canada might be different.