Problem is with the scanners, the guy that knocks you out of the sky is usually the one in the pit turning on the radio and scratching his head. By the time your airplane hit's the dirt it's over. Scanner is a good idea but not end all.

Gary

All true. But a scanner is halfway to everywhere, the best you can do at the moment.
Spread spectrum is on the way, though.
Still...I just think the threat of park flyers is highly exaggerated, especially when compared to the threat of your fellow club members making a human error.

No. Not at all. I don't get the picture.
Our frequencies are reserved for model airplanes. Our recievers are tuned to listen only to those freqencies. You are making no sense whatsoever. Something transmitting on 300mhz has nothing to do with us.
And what are we talking about, anyway? Has nothing to do with this, and model airplanes are not being shot down by some mysterious LOS transmitters operating on 300mhz.

I am NOT surprised. [:-]

No one said a 300MHZ transmitter had anything to do with "us". Where did you come up with that? 72 MHZ is specifically stated.

You started on the Scanner subject. I explained how and why a Scanner is not worth much for catching some other RC flier just off the field where the scanner is located.

Curtiss, try this: Go fly at some place where you can get your model flying all straight and level, hands-off trimmed, and fly it behind a masonry or metal reinforced structure, where it would fly for a couple seconds or so out-of-your-sight. It may work, but unless it is a pcm receiver set to 0-0-0, I rather doubt it.

If any of you ET supporters wish to tell Curtiss that you, too, are unable comprehend these most basic concepts of the RF spectrum characteristics, please feel free to comment.

This is really very comical. Curtiss, I never knew you were such a stand-up comedian, or is it something else ? [:-]

Looking at parkzone's website their is only one plane that is on the 72mhz band. It is a 3d plane which seems to be for a more advanced pilot, not the kid down the streets plane. It is also the most expensive plane in the parkzone lineup. Even if a beginner gets one of these I think they will crash it soon and give up. I don't see this particular model being a serious threat to our radio frequencies.

I would say that if the whole parkzone lineup changed to 72mhz then you would have a problem. It is my hope that Horizon Hobby Is only making this model 72mhz because it intended to be a more advanced plane.

Having said all this I am glad to see that I am not on any of the six channels used by these planes. There is also the possibility that a beginner may pick up one of these because they don't want to start with a beginner's plane.

Benjamin

I feel like the issue is one to be a bit concerned about. These ready to fly planes need to have some explanation to them IF you are selling them to someone you suspect is possibly making his or her first RC Aircraft purchase.

Probably the easiest way to address it is to have the local clubs create a flyer that shows where the air fields are located, and the basic rules of Transmitter frequency control. These could be taped to the box of the plane or given to the customer as they purchase the plane. Perhaps you could even include and invite to the local club funfly night or club meeting.

It is best handled with education and knowledge.

And Hossfly, you ALWAYS confuse me.


Tom

That's a good idea. But I think your average kid is just going to head to the park or backyard and give it a shot, without getting involved with reading any warnings or advice about local clubs.
Horrace...what on earth IS he talking about? No idea. But nothing that has anything to do with the subject at hand. Sounds like some sort of attempted personal insult, but who cares?

hi as someone who is just entering the hobby and i should remind you it is that,something to do for fun and entertainment. ive been slightly stunned by the amount of pomposity shown by rc club members in this thread and also the ignorance, look at the f-27 stryker, it is a park flyer as standard and on the 27mhz frequency however the stryker along with several other park flyers are customised by their owners and usualy recieve new 72mhz radio equipment and the people doing this arent all elitist ama members who think this hobby belongs to them and only fly in their precious fields,far from it they are the average joe who just wants to go and fly a model plane for some fun. people have been flying on 72mhz frequencies outside your starchy flying fields in thier local parks for years the introduction of a couple of production park flyers that have this mod done at the factory is not going to make much difference. the only thing that threatens rc flying is the attitude of some people who believe they have more right to enjoy this hobby than others because they chose to join a club,elitism will lead to rc dying out not a bunch of people flying on "your" sodding frequency!!

as a short afterthought to that post i'd like to state that on a whole the people ive encountered on this site have been great and help others in order to boost the hobby they love and share thier enjoyment with others and my comments on ama members and flying clubs are not in refferrence to all members or clubs only those with the gall to try and 'own' a hobby that belongs to anyone who wants it. im just really dissapointed to have discovered such a horrible side of such a wonderful hobby, i shall continue to fly in field and parks for my enjoyment without harming anyone and i hope you shall do the same regardless of your frequency.

Amen.
Park Flyers don't bother me in the slightest, have at it, I say. The more the merrier.
I fly jets and scale and all sorts of junk, but the last thing on my mind is getting shot down by some guy in a park. I worry more about getting shot down by my fellow club members making a goof.

I flew for YEARS at local parks and schoolyards, still do now and then, and the chances of someone being nearby on your frequency are just so astronimically against it...
It's just a non-issue. Except for guys who think they have "real" models and you don't.

I guess the 2 times I have walked out to help pick up planes that were shot down by park fliers was all my imagination. Thank goodness we have people here to straighten us out.

And what Hoss was explaining (seemed clear to me) was that at VHF frequencies, the signal is more line of site, meaning that as your plane gets higher, it can "see" a lot farther than your scanner, meaning you can take off with a clear scanner reading and get shot down by a nearby park flyer when you get 100 feet up.

And of course, someone flying a 100 dollar foamie (that Horizon themselves markets as a throw away) might have a different view of frequency control as someone who scratch built a Cub for 6 months, but how that makes the Cub flyer an elitist is beyond me, makes no sense whatsever.


And BTW, where is the spread spectrum radio that is coming out?

I've gone out with a trash bag to pick up MORE planes that were shot down by people switching on at the wrong time. Fellow club members.

What Horrace means, only he and the John Birch Society REALLY know, but what you are saying makes some sense to me.

We don't know how HORIZON feels...they sold the guy who took the six months to build his Cub his radio, engine, kit, hardware, and all the rest, and he's horizon's core customer...you don't know where they stand on this.

Spread spectrum, well....HORIZON(JR) is working on it, no? And Hitec is already marketing it to car guys?
I thought YOU were on the leading edge of Spread Spectrum and just decided it was not profitable?

This "Threat" can be 100% different from club to club. 90% of the club fields such as ours are so far away from any houses or any thing else, there is no one else who would be Park flying within a couple miles. If you think people are, well go meet them and extend an olive branch. They have the right to use the frequencies as anyone else does. You may as well be a good neighbor vs an old sour pus. But I suspect this threat involves less than 10% of the fields. And yes, many more club members shoot us down than anyone else.

Gary

I think that last sentence is probably right on target. However, I also don't consider the PF guys on 72 mHz are as harmless as many would wish. I keep hearing from other sources of problems that have been traced to that type of aircraft. Over the years many different approaches to the problem have been tried, discussed, and considered.

Saying the AMA folks "own" or think they own anything other than another bill for some development in Muncie is just plain acting stupid. By the same token, any AMA type claiming law enforcement privileges belongs on the same funny farm. As for Horrace and his remarks, Mr. Matt precisely described what was being discussed. Having been there and done that to a 30% bird, I hate it and look forward to SS systems.

Trash or modify all current transmitter systems. Have manufactures implement a transmitters that do a initial scan of its tuned
frequency at power-up, and do not turn on the RF sections unless the frequency is clear. Frequency control at the transmitter.

Think that through for a while and the flaws become evident. I have seen folks (non-AMA) who still have the old wideband stuff. What do you think it might take to get them to trash it? I wish it were otherwise just as the frog wishes he had wings...

I have just read this entire thread and........

Since when is my $100 foamie not a "real" airplane!? The darn thing flies just like your "real" plane right!? If it wasn't for my $100 foamie, I wouldn't have been exposed to this great hobby. Heck I built it my self, cut and glued the foam together, built my first brushless motor, learned how to balance and set up the plane properly, and basicaly learned to fly with my $100 foamie. I enjoy it so much that I've just purchased my first ARF plane, a Hangar9 Ultrastick with a OS .46AX engine. And yes I plan to join whatever I need to to fly it. I crashed alot of foamies. But with their low cost I could just build another and give it another try. I think if I had spent the time to build a so called "real" plane and then proceded to crash it, I might have been discouraged and quit the hobby. And I have accepted the fact that it's not IF I will crash it's WHEN I WILL crash. It happens to the best of them, example... http://homepage.ntlworld.com/robert....ng/gallery.htm

Most of the RX's for park flyers have to be small and usually have limited range, about 500ft. And the planes are small enough that they are not flown very far away anyways.

Looks to me like the best solution to this is to EDUCATE the buyers of these planes right from the start. The hobbyshop should have flyers to the local club(s) and give them to the buyer. I realize this won't work if the plane is purchased online. But maybe the manufacturers could include some AMA, or other info in the box. Yes I know that the manuals usually have some info, but I mean right on top, the first thing you see when opening the box.

And this blaming the manufacturer for what someone does with their product, is total BS. If it has an actual manufacturing defect or design flaw then it is up to the manufacturer to recall the product. And if something does happen in that case, then most likely the manufacturer will pay up.

But if YOU buy a new set of tires for your car, and YOU neglect to check the air pressure on a regular basis, and have a blow out that kills someone, is it the manufacturers fault that YOU failed to properly maintain the tires? I drive trucks and it amazes me how many cars, suvs whatever run around with obviously low tire pressure. And I have even been cussed at for pointing out that Mrs. SUV Soccermom has a low tire on her suv. Fine see ya in a few miles down the road, and I'll be sure to wave.

There must be new exposure to the rc hobbies or else they will die. And these inexpensive, easily repaired, easy to fly $100 foamies are just the ticket. I am glad I started with one.

See ya,
Rod

As far as the problems with interference from park flyers, it is no more probable than interference from someone flying a mile or so from an operating field.
Our previous club field had occasional bouts of interference on certain frequencies. The interference was very spotty. We could go weeks without problems.
Happened to mention the problem to a Ham I knew at work. He asked what frequencies we had the problem , and when I told him, he became a bit concerned. He apologized for at least some of the problem was caused by him and his son. They were flying RC at a local community college field less than a mile from our field. In fact, there were times you could see planes in the air at our field from the college's parking lot. And with the big gas engines, you could even hear them.
He and his sone joined the club, and finally realized how much easier it was to learn to fly with an instructor, and how few and far between the near crashes and crashes were when there was frequency control.
There were other people flying there who exhibited the I don't give a _____about anybody else attitude after being approached by this new member. Some people just don't want to respond to common sense, and have no respect for other people. Our officers approached the college plant manager and security, and discussed the situation. The college then banned ALL RC flying on their property. This did not affect the kite flyers, the control line flyers, nor did it stop the college from setting aside monthly Sundays for the area FAC free flight people. They intelligently responded to the highest liability potential.

Yeah, we should all strive to get those outlaw flyers using the R/C frequencies outside of our chartered clubs shut down. That's what is good for model aviation, and that's what we as AMA members are all about.

Q: How was it that the college plant manager and security determined the RC flyers to be the highest liability potential, and liability to whom? Or if that was your assessment, same question.

Abel

As I understand it, their decision was based on the RC planes being the heaviest things being flown on their property, combined with the engines and the possible liability either from the flyer losing control, or from radio interference, at the college or our field. The college campus is quite large, but is surrounded by a heavily traveled state route on the west side, and has considerable residential and business property and development all around, as well as their own community oriented CoC developments. The FF group rarely flys anything weighing more than 2 ounces, and the CL flyers not only have the direct connection with the plane, but one of the security people actually got to see what happens usually to a CL plane when one of the lines breaks. Usually, they don't travel far. Also, the CL planes were't observed flying over campus structures or parked cars, any time of day, including when classes were in session, like some of the RC flyers had done. Kites are generally regarded as harmless, unless somebody gets a string cut, and the model rocketry people seem to be able to keep their models on a relatively small part of the field, and fly well away from campus structures and don't fly near any of the youth soccer set-ups or the tennis courts.
Also, several of the RC flyers who used the college, but didn't try to contact our club, presented the image of "I'm going to fly what I want, where I want, and any way I want." according to the security head. Not smart people!
We maintained good relations with the college, even getting invited to put on demos, flying and static, during their annual community days.

I can actually understand that problem at a college. Every year a new influx of smart kids breaking into the new world. It can be hard to come up with a way that makes it work for everyone. A flying sight off campus maybe or a college run R/C club who gets the word out early in the year. We had a dedicated spot but I used to do a lot of flying off campus in college and remember seeing other guys around campus flying too.

Gary

I am curious here guys I am an avid parkflyer here in Boise ID and we fly at the local high school on weekends and just about everyone that flies ther is on 72 mhz There are only two flying clubs here in the area and they want 300 to 400 dollars a year for dues and all of us feel the same way this is a ridiculious amount of money to pay to be able to fly so we are in the process of setting up a club with permission from 2 schools to fly indoor and outdoor and also will have a flying field established in a area of one of the city parks asked the LHS here about having to do this through ama and were told that ama does not even apply to electric flying
I flew gas for years and sold everything and went to electrics because of the hassles and politics inside of a club what happened to the old days of just being able to go out and fly and have fun to me it seems it has turned into a money issue as an adult I cannot afford the money to stay in a club what about all the kids clubs like the ones here have pretty much eliminated kids from being able to fly we sometimes have 15 to 20 kids at a time flying with us on weekends and it is great it is frustrating to me to see the road this hobby is going down to me not for the better I and the other guys that fly together will continue to do so here the same way we have for the last couple of years

Rick

The person at the LHS did not know what they were talking about.

To form a club, download the club charter kit on the AMA page at http://www.modelaircraft.org/PDF-files/2005clubkit.pdf . Each member of the club will also need to be an AMA member. It will cost Open Members $58 each. Kids are $1 each. The max it can cost to form a club, including insurance for the landlord, club itself, and club officers is $110 for a one field club (plus the individual fees, of course). If you want or need help, call 1-800-I-FLY-AMA and then extension 291 to reach the club secretary. She can also help you to get signed up as an individual.

It IS permissible to have more than one field, although there is an extra charge for the extra insurance for each extra field. Max of an additional $80 each, I believe.

As a current club treasurer whose been through several fights for dues increase, I can sympathize about the cost of belonging to a club, but also I know why the costs are what they are.
There is often field rent. That depends on where the club finds a field. I've seen clubs that have to rent expensive land, clubs that have to get the money to buy their land, and clubs that have land donated or lent out for little or no charge. I've heard of at least one club that is in such an expensive location that for over $2000/year you can join and get on a schedule that tells you at what time of what day you have a reserved flightime. And with several hundred members, there is a waiting list. Our club was lucky to get a decent sized parcel on a closed privately owned flyash dump surounded by a couple sanitary land fills, one closed and one in operation. But when the owner sold out to her daughter, we had to accept a slight immediate increase and a sliding 5%/year increase for each renewal. We've been at $75/yr adults. $65/yr seniors, and $15 four juniors under 19, plus AMA.
Then there is maintenance. In previous clubs, and in fact when I first joined the current club, mowing was done by volunteer members, with the only costs being fuel, oil, and periodic maintenance, with every ten to fifteen years, a new mower. Now 30 years later, just try to get somebody to do the mowing at less than $50/cut. And in the spring here, that can be twice a week for a while. In fact, for a while it was so hard to get someone that we were looking into getting a commercial outfit to do the mowing and spring rolling. Discusion on that idea stopped when the cost of that would have been 2 or 3 times what we are paying now.
Wives and children come out, both for family outings and as flyers. On a landfill, you can't dig a hole and put up an outhouse, like one of our older fields had. Port-Potti, May through October, $77/mo. And an installation and set-up charge. This year they may even have a removal charge added to the new $2 fuel surcharge.
Field maintenance and improvements. Filling holes and grooves on runways or access roads. Safety barricades. Maybe a shelter or park bench set-up.
Park fliers sound like they have it made, and to some degree they do, at least until some bone headed idiot comes along and wrecks things and gets all flying at parks and larger schoolgrounds stopped. Thanks to some of these, there are a number of area parks within an hours drive of me where people can't even fly a kite or one of these cheap Guillow or North Pacific gliders or rubber powered planes. At least most clubs have some kind of self-policing action that can reduce the negatives, like careless or agressive flying.
Nrichardz, sounds like you folks have a handle on your situation. Hope things work out, and everybody in your area can fly what they want without getting in each other's hair. Just remember the old adage about one rotten apple spoiling a barrel.

I know in our club, a handfull of people have turned the club into a lanscaping and building tribute to model aviation. The rest of us don't and never wanted anything that complicated. It sure is nice but they are always complaining no one is helping out and there are always expenses associated with maintaining everything. It is kind of the snowball effect. I for one would be happy with a grass runway, a little shelter and toilet. Our dues arn't that bad but they could be less then half if it was a club of modelers but some times it seems like construction and lanscaping is more important then flying.

Gary