Who's gonna tell the land owners out there that were told the club would have $2mil site insurance & all pilots would have $2mil liability..... but now any landlord that was told that needs to be informed of all pilots will have $2mil liability except for the ones with just $500k.

I'm sure it will be easy for PF Tier folks to talk to munis, that have had the AMA insurance pitch for standard clubs on city land, easy for them to now try to de-program the city that was told how important the pilots insurance was & the club needs exclusive use to ensure pilots insurance is met (by ama membership). Clubbers have spent decades painting the insurance scare, now we will have the parkies try to say, 'well, that was all hooey, $500k is plenty.'

But one bright spot in this, if the Park Tier really are allowed to fly at standard clubs,
makes a screaming point against the dogma about all disallowing Pay Per Day guys for insurance reasons. Seems clubs would now be told that pilots dont really need millions of insurance, a PayPerDay 2lb 60mph guy just needs $500k it seems.

Our club bylaws require that all members be members of AMA. But that bylaw was written when there was only one type of membership (OK, two if you count Life membership). With this new class of membership, will the AMA expect that we treat PF members as full members? Or is AMA recommending that clubs establish a second type of membership with restrictions? My recommendation to my club will be that we establish a second type of membership that will have a different color card. Members have to display their club membership card when they are flying. This will allow the club to enforce the park flyer restriction. But I don't anticipate giving PFers a break on our membership dues.

Brad

I doubt that will happen due to conflicts of interest and the same reason you cannot 2 clubs under the same name. The reason they do that is for seperation of benefits of insurance. Club A falls under the mandates of insurance policy #1 and club B falls under the mandates of insurance policy #2. Once you combine memberships into 1 club, you conflict the insurance policies. It could be a mess.

The way you acheive it is just setup another club for the Park Pilots. Same dues for the site, but different dues and coverage. Besides, when was that last time the AMA ever paid $500k in a single claim? When was the last time they paid $100k?

Davy-
That local club Parkie Card tier seems to be just what the AMA has done.
Maybe the local clubs can just let the AMA Parkies in with the restricion to PF Tier planes.

... and when a local club Parkie Card flyer shows up with 1.5lb of 300watt brushless fury,
how is your club SO or Secretary going to determine if that is a valid plane to be flown under AMA Parkie Qualifications & Insurance. Does that 300watt brushless 1.5lb plane meet the 60mph cap set by Muncie? How will you know?

Sounds great on the surface, but as with so much of this program, how will we actually do it?
And how much lead time will the clubs have to settle how they want to handle it before folks start showing up with AMA Parkie Cards?

And does this whole thing just make my Non-Member suggestions so much more reasonable... at least they would have the full $mils insurance for their foamies What is The Hartford going to charge for just $500k of Secondary RC insurance?



<edit: ooops, no E in Davy>

Pfs are welcome at our club as long as they have the full $58 membership, otherwise it's gonna be a no go here.


Ronnie

Toolman,
When will you / did you change your rules in print to reflect that.
Sure your local club can set that rule, why not... but you do have to actually make it.

and the clock is ticking
to avoid the hassle of some AMA Parkie showing up Jan2 & waiving your "AMA Membership Required" rules & his AMA membership card from Muncie.

Lets all sit back & relax, cause we wont have to deal with this happening for another 4 or 5 weeks... plenty of time to get all the clubs to change their rules in print, or have club meetings to discuss if they want to let the AMA Parkies in or not.

Assuming they will be allowed into standard clubs by Muncie....

Right and when the members that switched or are going to switch to parkflyer only models and then find out they can join the AMA for half the price and then join a club 3 miles down the road at a free park site whose annual club membership is by donation only, then I guess you'll prolly wish you weren't so quick to turn cheek on the people that perhaps wanted to be part of the same organization you want to belong too. They will just have a few more dollars in their pocket and be with people who are in line more with their personal attitudes. I'm sure they'll miss you!

JF,
I appreciate the congrats, and am I am sure you will do the same, as most clubs will. As long as the AMA says these guys have the same coverage, or at least that the landowners do, and they have a card, they can fly at our field. I don't anticipate this to ba big problem for clubs however, I think the AMA has created something, that for the most part, there is not a big need for. I don't beleive that droves of people will come forward to join this program, even if it was only $9.95. The PF do not currently see a need for it, and see it as an added expense. Maybe I am wrong....
Tommy

In the situation with a club who is AMA chartered, I believe the $2 million dollar liability for the landwowner is thru the club's charter, not thru the individual, so perhaps the AMA will clarify this issue. If that is the case, then a PF at an AMA field does not necessiraliy decrease the coverage for the landowner, am I right. It would seem to me that whether or not the accident was caused by a PF or a "58'er", the coverage for the landowner is still the same.
The clubs should have the same pay grade irregardless of the type of AMA card they carry, so the only people losing out here, would be the AMA, and if they get a few more members, and manage to retain the ones they currently have, then it would not be a bad thing. BUt I am afraid like many here, that a majority of these guys will jump from the "58's" down to the PF realm, and the AMA will be worse off than ever.
Tommy

No you are not wrong, Tommy.

Pretty sharp assessment, but as you say, if the site owners insurance remains unchanged, then I do not care how many PFs join or how much they are charged. The site insurance to me an about 93% of the AMA is the major benefit, IMHO.

The other park flyer benefits (such as a new magazine!!) will be an upfront fixed cost whether 1 or 1 million new park flyers join. As do you, I think the park flyer member numbers will be very small as the perceived value of the new program to the park flyer is almost nothing (unless the AMA spends a bundle to scare them into thinking they need the insurance to fly in their front yard)

We will know soon enough how much this will (further) drain from the AMA coffers.

All the more reason that site owners and exclusive AMA club site owner should at least CONSIDER adding a new Park Pilot club, before they throw the concept into the trash. Not only will they be able to keep the people that are going to leave, they will also get noobs entering the new program. At the end of the day most clubs are more concerned with adding members and raisnig revenues for the site instead of worrying about secondary insurance which is MORE then ample protection.

I also have frst hand knowledge that the benfits for the Park Pilot club program will mirror that of the current AMA charter club benefits. It's a pretty cool concept that if you ask some of these questions to your DVP, you might even get an answer. And if you ask nicely enough, he may send you the entire program package like my DVP was willing to do.

I think where this program is going to make hay is going to be in metro areas where people need permission from local governments to use public land to fly. this is going to open up a whole new realm of park flying clubs. Just as the current program enables people to band together and start clubs, get property from which to fly, and get blanket liability protection for land owners.

If you can't see all this then you can't see the forest for the trees. ( that previous statement not necessarily aimed at you Doc.)

sounds like you havent read ama 911.pdf & the way the club site insurance covers non-members too..
.. it just calls them freeloaders for being covered without paying..
... paying being sending muncie money in addition to paying the club that bought Muncie Site Insurance. Once the club has AMA Brand site insurance (sure we are not an isurance company) then the non-members/AMA-Parkies flying there dont change that, the non-members just dont pay (unless the club chooses to charge them PPD, but muncie somehow forgot to mention that)

The more we say the pilots insurance dont matter, the more reasonable letting non-members fly sounds.

If the pilot insurance dont matter, then let the PayPerDay guys pay the local clubs for using the clubs sod, the clubs tables, & the clubs site insurance covering the club & the landowner from getting sued (pilot gets what protection from site insurance?), and the clubs portajohn.

But good point for clarification is the pilots insurance for Parkies & 58'ers
when flying at home,
just how much pilot coverage do the $500k Parkies get in side by side comparison to the 58'ers

It does not cover non-AMA RC operators, it only covers spectators and people utilizing the property other then flying operations. So freeloading for doing what ... standing, watching or walking their dog?

[/quote]

I think the park flyer member numbers will be very small as the perceived value of the new program to the park flyer is almost nothing

[/quote]

One aspect of this new program, which was NOT included in the proposal mailed to the membership a year ago, has not yet been discussed in this thread:

From the ad in FlyRC:

" . . . fliers who join the Park Pilot Program will receive exclusive rebate coupons for top-quality merchandise -- instant rebates on popular products! TRUTH IS, YOUR SAVINGS ON THESE PRODUCTS ARE LIKELY TO EXCEED YOUR INVESTMENT IN MEMBERSHIP--ITS A PLUS THAT'S TOO GOOD TO PASS UP! (emphasis in the original ad). (Note that the ad's discussion of insurance, magazine, etc. was not in bold print--where the discussion of rebates was.)

How effective this incentive will be, I have no idea -- might well depend, at least in part, on the degree of support the AMA can get from vendors. But, it does at least provide a new potential incentive for park pilots to join.

Tell Ya what Slick, I don't much give a flying rats azz what you think, period!! Ours is the only field for about 30 miles. If I'm gonna pay $58 ama an $25 for our field, they are too... We'll have our monthly meeting this Sat an I've got enough votes already (all of us) for it to sail right through....

Besides, my post was to KE not you Mr #1

Ronnie

I wonder just how many Park Pilots have already sent their applications in? I'd be willing to bet that not many have. I'm still wondering what value they see in joining? I think that some of you guys are thinking that they will be lining up to join. I've got a feeling that you have overestimated their interest.

Bill, AMA 4720

Ronnie,

I believe that once the mainstream AMA clubs get a feel for what is going on, you will find most of them doing exactly the same thing.

Bill, AMA 4720

I think its gonna be AMA's Edsel if you ask me, or at least in this part of the country it will be.


Ronnie

That is funny! YUP! Just like the F-111. We called it the "Switch-Blade Edsel". I well remember when an urgent order from the USAF Chief of Staff to all Commands and personnel was posted on the bulletin board: "USAF Personnel will no longer refer to the F-111 as the 'Switch-Blade Edsel'."
Robert McNamara was JFK's and LBJ's Sec of Defense back then for you youngsters. He also was the originator of Ford's "Edsel", a total flop. He was good at that 'Flopping' stuff.
Maybe the EC will have something like that placed in the Safety Code reference the PFers. OK, OK, Just joking, don't anyone get your panties in a wad.

While I well recognize that AMA has to make a start somewhere in these changing days, -- like people flying $25 helecopters in their living room -- boggles my mind -- I fear that AMA is far too slow to make changes to established band-aid programs to keep this one on track. Just keeping the fingers crossed!

So within that 30 miles you don't think a park flyer could be established? Like I said this is exactly why the AMA developed the program, just for guys like you whom are "visionaries" of failure. You think the failure comes from the program? No it comes from the lack of member ability to see a future. You've already sandbagged it out before it's been presented ... yup, that's progress!

Gotta be glow fuel. Must put a little extra dash of that special sauce in Missora.

Dion,

Is that you? Are you still here? I would have thought that you would be off with your own kind in the Park Pilot forum aggravating and agitating them. When are you going. We're planning a party to celebrate your moving on. Dang son, how can we miss you, when you won't leave?

Bill, AMA 4720

Hey, Dion,

Since you are only going to be paying half as much, does that mean that you will only be posting here half as much as well?

Bill, AMA 4720

This is why I suggested an AMA Park Pilot program forum. Since the AMA forum doesn't get a whole lot of team effort in trying to actually HELP the AMA progress, would be nice to see some kind of chance of pace in regards to this new program. But no, you old timers, and I don't mean that by age, will just keep ranting and complaining until you've brought down yet another arm of the AMA, nothing new. But to answer you're question Bill I'm not going anywhere, my IPhone(TM) makes it convenient to post anywhere, even in the head.