Drat!

Bill, AMA 4720

I'd say we're stuck with him Bill. The only reason he's here anyway, is to feather his own nest.


Ronnie

In order to avoid the hassles of trying to check everyones membership against what they are flying, I think it would be easier to change the by-laws to require the non-parky only membership to join the club.

Another alternative is that adding different cards and policing it requires more expense, therefore double the dues for that class.

Welp, just got he mail, my DVP was nice enough to send me the entire Park Pilot program package and now it's time to goto work.

BTW you will not be able to add Park Pilots to current AMA clubs, you are going to have to form a new club with it's own set of bylaws.

I don't see why this is so complicated for some, don't tell me that you guys have never been to a flying site with more then 1 club utilizing the site? You know you can have the same board members of one club represent the board members of the other club if you want. The only thing that MUST change is the name of the club, but the structure you have for club A can be exactly the same for club B. That is if you want to have both a park and non park club live in the same house.

What about the dual club charter,two headed thingy the AMA rails against?

Like I said, as long as the new club has it's own name, own set of bylaws (which can be carbon copy of current bylaws) and is setup as a new AMA club charter, you're set. Everything is in place, you just need to file the paperwork. As far as members "policing" themselves, well that's done every single day on the field. The only difference is 2 lbs and 60 mph. But that doesn't really mean anything until there is an accident. No different then not following any other rule on the AMA safety code. It's not that complicated, some people just want it to be. I think they are afraid of losing some of their members and they should, it's a great concept and looks like it's going to be a great program ... at a better price.

So, is there another magazine?

Is this specifically stated in the AMA bylaws?

Brad

Hey I see a GREAT advantage here for the Landowner Club, now having to finance land payments, real taxes, equipment maintenance, utilities, and facility-upkeep, along with other assorted bills.

Go ahead and Help set up the parkfliers club. Make an iron-clad contract stating days, hours, etc of operation, work responsibilities, any details of dual membership such as NO voting rights in the main club, and a host of other details between the clubs. Then charge the pfer-club annual rent and/or lease fees equal to at least a year's main club dues, for each member in the pfers-club.

So the if pfers want to invade the private property of others, then OK, but they have to pay the piper. If a member of the mainclub wants to opt out of regular AMA member dues, he will still have to pay pfer dues, pfer-club dues and those pfer club-dues will have to be enough for the pfers to pay their rent. [8D] Sounds like a win-win situation to me.

When it comes to exacty policies of this importance, don't take my word for it, email your DVP and ask for specifics. Like I said and I know my DVP frequents this forum quite often so I have no reason to lie in front of him. I emailed DM 3 times in the last few days and got 4 email replies and a package in the mail. But like I said the new Park Flyer program, from a club charter standpoint, mirrors the current AMA club charter program. Theindividual restrictions are ... 2lbs, 60mph, 500k. This program keeps looking better by the day. I have a pretty good feeling a lot of tunes will be changing soon, specially those looking to sandbag the opportunity of adding a new club charter to a site.

Great idea Hoss, again, sandbag the Park Pilots even tho their additional club insurance is right in line with current AMA programs. A great suggestion, you're a REAL asset to the org!

By the way you also might want to check your facts. You will not be able to grant Park Pilots voting rights for the sheer fact that they can't be members of current AMA clubs, under the same ticket with the same club. They will have to form their own club. The decision is up to the landowner of who gets to play god.

It's pretty clear whom is going to be the ones that try to seperate the Park Pilots from the current AMA members. Certainly isn't going to be the AMA, just wait till you see the Park Pilot program brochure and binder, it's sweet. Certainly not going to be the Park Pilots. But yes, it's going to be a bunch of grumpy old timers (don't mean by age) who will stop at nothing to keep the AMA locked in 1974 eternally.

There ain't no nickel beer, and there dang sure ain't no free lunch. Dion, did you really think that the other guys would let you ride free? Who did all the work for them?

Bill, AMA 4720

Like I said Bill, he's just in it to feather his own nest or line his own pockets. However ya want to put it.



Ronnie

Yeah,

It's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in every way. (with apologies to John Prine) Someone said that it was really cold in New York City today, they saw Dion walking down the street with his hands in his own pockets.

Bill, AMA 4720

LOL


Ronnie

OK guys, I'm not going to pull any posts right now. But I will stop in here and say to keep the discussion civil. Personal name calling and insults aren't needed. Let's all play nice here.

Ken

Would be nice if the AMA would post all the details on their web site, instead of just puting a ad (without details) in a magazine.
Would any AMA office holder like to respond as to why this has not been done?

ST..L, May I suggest you work more with those 3rd graders. They can read and explain things to you.
Are you telling me that If Club A OWNS their own land and allows a pfer club to also fly on the Club A's land/facility, that Joe Schmoe cannot be a member of both Club A -- the landowner -- and the pfer club?
If Club A owns their land as many clubs now do, then Club A is God as far as your landowner definition is concerned.

Now, OTOH, Joe Blow leaves Club A, which requires $150 annual dues, and joins pfer club. That is fine as JB does what he wants to do. Freedom of choice is a very good thing. [&:]

Now Club A requires pfer club to pay rent equal to Club A's dues for each person that is a member of the pfer club.
JB did what he wanted, and Club A has their funds to pay bills for the facility, plus the pfer club has a developed site to fly from.
As I said win-win for all. [>:]

Jean 13704 raised a very good point. Going a bit deeper, why is DM acting like government, by stating that a good plan is soon coming to all, yet set up a leak to an individual with no effective background in AMA activities, just so bits and pieces will fall through the cracks to flavor the pot with half-truths and confusion? IMO, not a good way to start a new chief-executive tenure.

BTW st..l, What happened to that promise that you were not going to respond to me anymore? That would be a win for all!

Maybe the AMA PF Tier is a blessing,
could be just the thing to get the stalled Central Park AMA Club Field going again.
Aint that just what we hear the program is for?
Getting into urban areas we cant put a standard field.

From Jim Cherry, AMA Executive Director

In an effort to ease the confusion an extensive FAQ's list will be distributed to the AVP's and leader members the 15th-17th of December (Just prior to MA hitting the streets) to give them a heads up about the 4 page spread and prepare them for questions we're sure they will be getting. The club recharter kits will also have the FAQ's included as well as on the AMA web page.. Just a FYI
Thanks
Jim

Listen Hoss you run your club the way you feel deemed to screw people who you THINK are below you. Your intentions are crystal clear. Screw them at every corner and do your best to segregate them from the group. Yeah that will really go over well. Like I said, the AMA started this program so people like yourself who WANT to segregate and create ANY disadvantages for Park Flyers will just go simply live elsewhere WITH THE FULL SUPPORT OF THE AMA and might even take a few of your members when they go.

The same people who kept saying that this program will seperate the AMA are the same people who are taking action to prove their own theory right. I say, let them. The more seperation this organization this organization has, the better. Wall in Mexico? Nah .... let's put it back where it used to be 130 years ago.

Oh and in regards to DM acting like the gov't, which gov't are you talking about, the one down in DC? Last time I checked the AMA is a government. You know "the body of persons that constitutes the governing authority of a political unit or organization." Yes, DM SHOULD be running the AMA like a gov't, maybe not like DC, but certainly a government, afterall he is a President. Better that he runs it like a government then his own hobby shop.

It's Ken, let them. This is how tough guys act when they can say these kind of comments behind the luxury of a computer screen. Hey at least they know where to find me if they come looking for me, I'm the only Dion Cini on this earth. I also be happy to provide them with a good address on request, home or work. Although work addy could be a tad dangerous.

Dion,

We've been jerking your chain a little, but, Please pay attention here....Do you actually expect the organized mainstream clubs that have done all the work to build the fields, and garner whatever good will that they have been able to accumulate, to simply turn it over to the new Park Pilot clubs that will be coming along for free? Surely, you are intelligent enough to understand that you guys will in fact, have to buy your way in. Would you be willing to turn over what you had worked long and hard to accomplish to a new group and not expect to recover at least some of your investment? I think not. Having said that, why should this be any different. I think that the existing clubs, where you would want to set up a semi-parallel group are deserving of having their efforts compensated. If you do not, then you don't want to conduct your business, or your club in a fair manner.

I do know that the clubs to which I belong are operated on private property, and these clubs do have the final say as to who may or may not use the facilities. I do not expect to see any Park Pilot program have any trouble approaching these clubs with a proposal of utilizing these facilities, as long as they are not demanding that we accomodate them for free. That will not happen, and if that is the intention of these newcomers, they will be in for a rude awakening. We have invested many thousands of dollars in building these flying facilities, and are not likely to give them up to anyone for nothing.

My advice to you would be to first form a group, then decide whether or not you wish to use an existing field, and then approach the club that has that field, and ASK, if there might be a possibility of utilizing the existing facility, and also ask that they (the existing club) propose to their membership these requests, and have them make an offer of use, and what the cost will be. Then you guys can dedice whether or not you can afford the price. If not, then simply develop your own flying site (within the guidelines for distance from the historically existing club). It's pretty simple, but I will guarentee you that we won't roll over and play dead for you.

Bill, AMA 4720

OK, I get it, Hoss was jerking my chain, I'm on the same page now. In fact every one of his posts are knee jerks aimed to arise. In real life the guy is not the same on the board ... I'm with ya now.

No, I do not expect an AMA club to allow a free ride to anyone. Fair share of expenses is more then adequate. I do however expect them to abide by a "code of ethics" which more or less says to just be fair. But what I don't believe Hoss understands is that the AMA developed the program because there was tension with Park Pilots, you know it and I know it. They were also leaving flying sites because their stuff just didn't fit into the mold.

Listen Bill I suggested that the new club is formed utilizing the same board of directors as the other club, this will allow the least path of resistance and segregation. But then again I don't care and I don't think Park Pilots will either, they will get their new club with or without a local club helping them. I hold in my hands a Park Pilot sales, marketing and operations binder and DVD. I can tell you right now that the AMA did their homework and will be getting even more feedback from yours truly on how to HELP those who are intimidated or going to be shown ANY kind of resistance from a current AMA club that they still have hope and a GREAT amount of assistance from the AMA.

So in a nutshell Bill these clubs can do whatever they want, I don't really care. I live on Long Island, you live in Florida. It does not effect me. My point is that I see the potential and if a current AMA club does not make things fair, it WILL NOT be a problem for Park Pilots to find their own home and I am sure as the sun shines they will be taking current AMA club members with them. So current clubs can take the first strike and figure out a way to make it work FOR THEM or throw it in the trash. But if they think for a second they will have authority over Park Pilots in any way .... ha. Come on Bill, this is a male hobby, we are all wolves, even the 12 year olds.

One other thing Bill. In regards to pricing for Park Pilots. I understand that a flying club has been around for X years and maybe should be additionally compensated for their hard work, I get it. But you cannot ever, under any circumstances rule out the first law of economics, supply and demand. Sure you can price it higher then current members pay, it's their club. But you know they will price them selves out of the bearing market. Supply and demand is not a guess, it's a way of life and a law. Maybe you'll get that price for a couple months. But why would a Park Pilot club who took the time to establish their club want to even consider flying at a site where they will be charged more. Listen Bill once these clubs are established, getting a Park site is not that hard to do. You have bodies, you have power.

Also consider that if the club site owner, which is a club, decides to price Park Pilots at equal price, don't you realize that will raise overall revenues? It's not like flying clubs have payrolls, so there is no additional overhead for having more pilots. Maybe a little, but it's not like a company. So in a nutshell Bill, you will not be able to set the price you think you can get, you will have to base the price on what the Park Pilots will be willing to pay. Heck in some cases these clubs might fall to realize they have to go lower then their own rate, just to get them there. And that's the reality of the situation.