I have not had alot of time recently to get much more done but did manage to finally get the cowl masked and painted. The plane is starting to look pretty good. I will say that everything but the cowl is top notch. I do not want to slam DP products but their customer service is the WORST! After trying to contact them for about a month Sandy finally responded saying that they did not ship any defective cowls and basically that I did not know what I was talking about. I would have gladly sent it back if she only asked a month ago!. I have about 20 hours fixing cracks and filling 1 to 2 inch divots in the cowl. Still not perfect but looks much better than when I started. As much as I like this plane, I will never purchase another DP product. In any case, thought I would attach a couple of pics. Used all RM Diamont base coat/clear coat automotive paint custom mixed by me using their color max system. This system makes it easy to match monokote/ultrakote or anything else. Painted cowl whit first, then sprayed on a thick coat of Dively liquid mask. Cut checkers out with an exacto. This stuff works fantastic! No bleedind at all. Still looking like it will come in around 16 LBs with the BME 50. Let me know if I can answer any other questions. cbk

Another pic

Wow!

That looks awesome! Nice job.

Hi cbk,

Great job! It really looks great. Sorry about all the trouble with the cowl. I've had two cowls from them, the original and one of the new replacement cowls. Both are of excellent quality, except perhaps a little too stout.

It's a bummer about your experience with them. They are terrible to get ahold of, but they've always been helpful once I've reached them. I'm really surprised they wouldn't take care of you. I don't blame you for not wanting to do business with them again with this experience. There are several(many) R/C companies out there that need to learn about good customer service, but unless they're good already, I wouldn't look for any of them to change.

Unfortunately, a lot of these companies with excellent products will probably die and go away as people with experiences like yours vote with their dollars.

Bill

Thanks for the nice comments Wayne and Bill! I hate to trash a small company as I can imagine how hard it is to compete but they were so unresponsive and condescending that I felt it appropriate. I do own and have flown many Dave Patrick designed airplanes (my current hangar includes 4) and will say that anything he designs does seem to fly better than anything else I have flown. I only hope this one flies as well! cbk

looks beatiful it will prolly fly as beatiful as it looks.

Hey I just noticed the Q-Tee in the pic. Fun little plane. Is it the Airtronics kit or is it from the new people who are carrying that plane? If so, how is it?

Wayne, it is the new kit from Dream Catcher. I tought myself to fly on one of these about 18 years ago when Cox was making it. I was looking for and just found a couple of the original kits (Thanks RCU!!). Seeing as I keep getting into bigger planes thought it might be fun to regress a little. I am going to use a Norvel .061 R/C engine. Thanks for noticing! cbk

CBK07
Great job.... I to have experienced the lack of customer service from DPM... I have the ARC version like you and purchased the recommended YS140L. Put together just as recommended in the plans and fortunately I check the CG just prior to covering...you guessed it...needed 28oz in the nose to balance at recommended CG... OUCH. Even had a heavier Hyde engine mount. I had ordered the extra cowl and received it the other day and low and behold it was a painted one. Can you imagine how much work it would be to remove all the paint..Returned it and will wait probably another 2 months to get the unpainted one. For now I have shelved the plane cause I know that just moving the elevator servo forward and using a pull-pull method will not be enough to counteract the heavy tail. Am thinking about going gas like you did but am still feeling the pinch of buying a YS140 - Hyde mount and Slimline muffler = $800. Very disappointed right now. Will watch column for your first flight reports with interest.
Regards
Paul Eagon

Hi Paul,

Your CG problems sound consistent with the other DP Extra's out there, but I think you'd be amazed how much difference switching to a pull-pull elevator setup will make. 1 oz in the rear is equivalent to 5 or 6 oz in the nose, so moving the servos will probably be about equal to putting 20-25oz in the nose. Just about right. Make sure you put your receiver battery in the motor box as far forward as possible, and switch to the pull-pull elevator setup(do you have the free kit from DP?), and I bet you don't need any counter-weight.

The next point is that the recommended CG is way too conservative. Aim for 5 3/4 as a starting point and the plane will be very stable at this CG. I'm at 6 1/4 and it is still very stable, though it is a bit pitch sensitive even on low rates, but nothing that's hard to control, especially with a bit of exponential. Some people are running as far back as 7" for advanced 3D...but you better know what you're doing with this setting.

I really think you'll be totally covered with the elevator pull-pull. The flying characteristics are fantastic, and I think it will be worth the trouble to try it.

BTW, the only difference in the new cowl is the shape at the front. It's about an inch wider. If you don't need the width to make your engine fit, which you shouldn't, just use the original cowl.

If you want more info, there are several very long threads on RCOnline in the ARF section on this plane about these exact issues, that is if you're willing to suffer through the slowwwww servers.

Bill

Bill,
Thanks for your info... One of the main reasons for thinking of gas (have never had one) was from reading your review.. You have got me rethinking my combo might work ok. I was expecting great power to weight ratio (which is nice to have when needed) but with the YS140 I don't think it will be there. Will give the pull-pull elevator a try. I have a 3" Nelson bellcrank which would be perfect for that kind of installation. Was planning on using 2 9203 servo's for the elevator. Will probably have to switch to a 9206 if using one with bellcrank. Do you think that will be OK
Thanks for info....Ya! I hate that slooooooooow wait on RCON
Paul

Hi Paul,

Well, as you know, gas would still be my first choice, but I didn't want to suggest that when you already have a motor. The YS140 probably won't fly it around like a good gas motor, but I still think the performance would be very good. If you're planning on a lot of serious 3D, I don't think this is the optimal setup, but if you just fool around with 3D and mainly do IMAC sequences, or that type of flying, then I think it probably is plenty of power.

The total weight of course will be pretty interesting since you yours is an ARC, but the one person that published the weight of his ARC, it wasn't any lighter than the ARF. If it comes out lighter than the ARF, say in the 13-13.25 lb range, it will probably fly superbly on the YS. The single elevator servo will help some.

As far as the servo question, I'm sure the Futaba 9206 would work ok if you already have one, but I'd recommend the Hitec digital 5945. It's faster and has as much static torque, but will have a bunch more holding power and it's cheaper to boot. The feedback on these has been excellent(I'm using one on my rudder on the Extra and it works great). I would definitely run 6v if you didn't plan to already.

Bill

I put one together from an ARC, with a ZDZ 40. It still weighed almost 16 pounds with the pull-pull setup on the elevators. It only flew for about 25 seconds before the ailerons fluttered and went in upside down. The push rods he gives are not strong enough. They bent and made both my ailerons push down. It was a slightly controlled crash, so the damage was only the top of the fuse and tail. I need a new canopy and cowl. I wonder what they will tell me when I call and tell them their hardware is no good? From what I have read, they don't seem to stand behind thier products.

Fred

Hi Fred,

I'm sorry about your Extra. How did you like it before the crash? How was the power(vertical), slow speed characteristics, etc? Mine's at 15lbs with numerous lightening mods(Taurus 2.6), and has great slow flight behavior. I've heard that even at 16 lbs it has very good slow speed performance.

Although the manufacturer's of the ARFs should supply hardware up to the task, especially someone as knowledgable as DP, but they usually don't. I never assume the stock hardware that comes with ARFs is adequate and always replace it with proven setups, such as Rocket City control horns and Hanger 9 titanium turnbuckles, or what I usually use, Central Hobbies titanium ends with carbon fiber rods.

It's pretty absurd that you have to do this, but it's sort of a must do when you buy most ARFs. Unfortunately lots of people that are buying ARFs don't know this, and shouldn't have to. It's getting better with some companies(such as Hanger 9), but most still are not providing first-class hardware.

Definitely let us know your experience with DP in getting your new parts. When I crashed my Extra and bent the wing tube, I had a new one in two days. My experiences with them has always been excellent, though they are hard to reach. Forget e-mail and call them....sometimes it takes several calls to reach them. Don't leave a message, keep calling back. It's a pain, but it's worked for me.

Bill

Hi Paul!

You don't want do that. It just makes a mess out of your plane for no good reason. The advertising was inaccurate and misleading... and even though it has been somewhat updated it is still inaccurate and misleading. I'm not talking intention here... I'm only speaking with facts. Here's my review:

Dave Patrick's Extra 330 with Moki 2.10
(flew over 40 flights; sold the engine to John and the plane to Chris)

PROs:

* Good flying plane.
* Good 3D plane... best torque roller I've ever flown!
* Good IMAC plane.
* Excellent parts fit.
* Quick and easy assembly.

Engine Selection:

The Moki 2.10 was underpowered for 3D. A 50cc gasser (like he Taurus 3.2) would be just right. UPDATE: Flew Chris's DP 330 with the Taurus 3.2... what a motor! It's so smooth, and it's not even broken in! UPDATE #2: After breaking in the Taurus 3.2.... if I had to fly this plane (which I wouldn't)... I'd go with a ZDZ-60 for the flying I like to do.

CONs:

* Inaccurately advertised for most of 2001 as an 11-12 lb, 1.20 glow engine, 3D plane. The all up weight is going to average 14.5 lbs with a YS-1.20 (and will have very disappointing performance) or average 16 lbs with an appropriate gasser . The problem is not the plane as much as the advertising. UPDATE #1: DPM changed the website to read 12-13.5 lbs (still inaccurately advertised, however). UPDATE #2: DPM changed the weight again to 13-14.5 lbs (that's getting closer).

* A hard to arrive at recommended CG that is incorrect anyway... to add insult to injury DPM offers a totally unacceptable workaround to arrive at this undesirable CG location. Do not run six cables and six controls horns on the back of your plane. Bring the CG in between 6-7" instead.

* The plane could be considered to have an in-between size and weight. It appears to be an experimental model (the wing looks like a cross between an Extra wing and a Funfly wing) that did not come off as planned. If it is to be built to fly as advertised... it requires the same amount of money for engine and servos that much larger planes do.

* Poor quality hardware (especially the pushrods) that will fail if used.

And, then there is the service... I understand when you're only one or two deep in personnel it is going to be tough. But, the whole experience with the DPM Extra left me very disillusioned about DPMs.

Here's a pic DPM posts of the mess he suggests you make to your plane. The weird thing is I've seen people grateful to DPM for this so called fix.

Well Joe, you've certainly toned down your presentation of your views on Dave Patrick.

I disagree with your views on the workaround. Certainly this is not the ideal scenario, but there's nothing wrong with the solution. It will work perfectly. When using a light glow motor, it allows the CG to fall into the range necessary without adding any counter-weight to the nose. You'll still need the mod to fall into the 5 3/4 -7" range with these engines. The plane will fly extremely well with this type motor at the mid 13.5-14 range it will come out. The only thing it won't do better than a gas motor is have as much vertical performance, but it should still be plenty adequate except for the most radical 3D vertical maneuvers.

On your other comments, I'm a little confused on some of them:

>> The plane could be considered to have an in-between size and weight.

I'm not sure what that means. There is no such thing as an in-between size that I know of. All manufacturers take liberty with designs and few match exact scales. Dave Patrick is a VERY experienced designer and I think he knew exactly what he was doing.

I still can't understand why you would put a ZDZ60 in this plane. Why would you add a pound to a plane that is at the higher end of it's optimum wing loading with a 2.6/3.2 gasser, and with those engines at 16 pounds it already has rapid unlimited vertical and more than enough power to pull out of a hover with authority...so why rip the plane apart with the ZDZ60...what exactly would it accomplish. As someone else posted in another thread in response to your ZDZ60 suggestion, and I'm paraphrasing, "Even a brick will fly with enough power, but it won't 3D." As I mentioned before, I know you're into 3D, and nothing else, and I know you know that a light wing loading is as important to good 3D as power is, so why would you want to raise the wing loading significantly with no other apparent benefits?

>>It appears to be an experimental model (the wing looks like a cross between an Extra wing and a Funfly wing)

What does that mean? Would you please elaborate on what makes this wing look like a Funfly wing? I just don't see it.

>>that did not come off as planned.

I'm a bit confused here too. You stated earlier that you thought it was a good flying plane. How did it not come off as planned? IMHO, it came off perfectly as planned and its superb flying qualities prove it. I think Dave Patrick's years of producing top performing models over and over again, more than qualifies him to know how a wing should be designed for this type of model. He might not be up on customer service, but I think his qualifications as a designer are above reproach.

>>...it requires the same amount of money for engine and servos that much larger planes do.

I'm afraid you lost me here too. I assume you're talking about something like your H9 33% Cap. Why don't you list the servos you used on each of these two models and tell me how the Extra cost the same. You can optimally equip this plane with 5 Hitec digital servos(+throttle) for $400(and a lot cheaper if so inclined). This is hardly out of line for this size model. As an example, the Extra is about the same size as the AW 29% Edge. The Extra has a bit more wing area, is a bit shorter, and a bit heavier, but the servo requirements are identical. Also, why don't you explain how it uses the same engine as a much larger plane. Exactly which plane are you talking about?

As far as your statements on DP's advertised weights, you are correct, and guess what, most ARFs come out weighing significantly more than advertised, so DP is hardly alone here, though I'm not saying that is an excuse either. I will say that it is refreshing to see manufacturers like H9 coming out with attainable figures on their new offerings.

Bill

Bill and Joe, You have both answered my questions in the past on various topics and I both respected and appreciated your helpful inputs. I do believe from what I have read that both of you are acomplished fliers/builders and are both entitled to your own and sometimes VERY strong opinions. In fact I have never met a modeler who is not sometimes very opinionated including myself.
That being said, I originated this post to share my experience with this particular plane and have enjoyed the input by you two as well as others. PLEASE do not start another one of your little word wars like you did on RCO a little while back. It is obvious to me that you two rarely agree on much (at least to do with this plane) but there is no reason to share your bickering with the rest of the world. That (in MY opinion) is boring. Please do not take this as a flame on either one of you as you both have a ton of usefull information to share and I am sure it has helped many including myself. If you want to bicker, I would hope you could do it offline. I hope you take this the right way. Thanks, cbk

Hi cbk,

Hmmm, I thought my post was a pertinent counter opinion. I re-read it and don't see the problem. If you're basing this on some past thread from months ago on another forum, I really don't think that is relevant.

Please feel free to contact me privately any time you have an issue with one of my posts.

Bill

>>Well Joe, you've certainly toned down your presentation of your views on Dave Patrick.<<

My review points out what a potential buyer should know before buying this plane. And, what a first time buyer of the plane should know before he starts buying parts and building it. I tried to get a handle on my personal frustration with DPM and this model... and just stick with facts that will help the unwary.

>>I disagree with your views on the workaround. Certainly this is not the ideal scenario, but there's nothing wrong with the solution.<<

Just imagine "cbk" ruining the appearance of his plane by taking that work around. Why would any of the rest of us, even with our yellow ARFs, want to do the same thing?

>>I still can't understand why you would put a ZDZ60 in this plane.<<

If you can setup and fly planes that you are 100% satisfied with?... no need to try to understand why I do what I do. :-)

>>I know you're into 3D, and nothing else<<

I'm fully into pattern at the moment. You might be confused because my website only has 3D videos? I just didn't think anyone wanted to watch pattern videos... it's about as much fun as watching paint dry.<g>

>>I assume you're talking about something like your H9 33% Cap.<<

I don't have the H9 Cap anymore. But, yes, Ehab just got one for $550 online and Chris just bought a DP for $463 from our LHS. From there a ZDZ-80 single is in the same ballpark as a Taurus 3.2 or ZDZ-60. The Cap could use lesser servos on the rudder and ailerons. And, even if you spend a bit more on the Cap there will be absolutely no comparison on the flight performance, appearance, owner satisfaction, quality, ease of preflight setup, etc., etc., etc. I've had both planes... I've worked on quite a few of both models. My advice is figure out a way to build the H9 Cap for as close to the money as you were going to spend on the DPM Extra as you can. And, if at all possible... go that route. It sounds silly... but "trust me" on this one. :-)

Quite a bit of work to write a moderator style post isn't it? Nicely done. :-)

Your point is duly noted... I estimated that my timing and words were well chosen... maybe I was wrong... so I'll add nothing more to this thread. :-)

Joe, your opinions are all valid ones.

I spent under $1900 on my Extra using pretty high-end stuff, and making a lot of mods. If I remember correctly you spent $4-4.5K on your Cap w/ a DA100, but even if you subtract the difference in cost between the DA and ZDZ, the Cap is still 50-80% more expensive than the Extra, which is what I would expect.

As far as the looks of the elevator mod, I would assume most people would cover the old elevator servo holes. With that done, for me it would look fine, but of course that's just my opinion.

Bill

Bill Pryor
Thanks for your info. I am thinking more and more about the
Taurus TS42. I really like the looks of it. Where did you get it?
The factory does not accept Visa. They put me on to a hobby shop in California that does not do mail order but would make an exception?
What muffler did you use? The side mount or the Pitts. Can't tell by photo? Inverted looks the way to go.
If you were to install the engine again would you use the mount or install direct to firewall with extended hub?
Not being familiar with gas, what is a velocity stack & did you use one?
What kind of ignition swith did you use and where would be a good source for it? How do you charge the ignition battery? Can you use a normal flight pack swith for on/off and charging? What size ignition battery do you use and how many flights do you get off it before recharging. If I go to 6V on the flight pack as you recommended, what size do you recommend. I see you use a 24oz tank located on the cg. Does this engine have enough suction to draw fuel that far? How long of a flight do you get on 24oz? Sorry for all the questions, I am stupid about gas but eager to learn.
Paul

Hi Paul,

>>Where did you get it? The factory does not accept Visa.

I actually got mine through probably the same hobby shop they directed you too. I would have bought it from Taurus directly, but since I could get one without waiting the 3 weeks it typically takes to build one for a customer(remember these are hand-built engines, which has a lot to do with their extremely high quality and consistent high performance levels...and they're worth the wait). If you are concerned about buying direct from Taurus without a credit card because of confidence issues, don't be. They're as honest as they come and they've been in business for years. If you just want to use a CC you'll probably need to buy it from that shop.

>>They put me on to a hobby shop in California that does not do mail order but would make an exception?

As of a week ago that hobby shop had one in stock. I think it probably can be arranged for you to get it from them if you're in a big hurry. Write me privately if you are interested in doing that.

>>What muffler did you use? The side mount or the Pitts. Can't tell by photo? Inverted looks the way to go.

Yes, I used the Pitts-style muffler available from Taurus. It's very high quality and is pretty quiet.

>>If you were to install the engine again would you use the mount or install direct to firewall with extended hub?

Good question. The original reason I did it the way I did was to move the CG back on the Extra. As we all know now, that was the wrong move. So the answer is I would have used the stock mount and prop extension if I did it again.

>>Not being familiar with gas, what is a velocity stack & did you use one?

Not necessary. Velocity stacks are just as likely to mess up performance as help. I wouldn't worry about using one. They run so perfectly without one I would be hesitant to make any changes.

>>What kind of ignition swith did you use and where would be a good source for it?

I used a Fromeco(www.fromeco.com) regulated switch, but only because I am using Duralites that are 6 volts. If you use 4.8v Nimh or Nicad, you don't need a regulated switch. I would recommend any heavy duty switch including the non-regulated Fromeco or a standard one, like Cermarks'. Here's one source of heavy duty switches if you can't find one locally: http://www.rcaccessories.com/.

>>How do you charge the ignition battery? Can you use a normal flight pack swith for on/off and charging?

The same as for a receiver battery. Any switch you use, as I mentioned above, will have a charging jack with it just like for the receiver.

>>What size ignition battery do you use and how many flights do you get off it before recharging.

800 - 1200 mah. It's going to vary, but you can probably get 6 - 8 15 minute flights with a 1200 mah battery.

>>If I go to 6V on the flight pack as you recommended, what size do you recommend.

I'm using a 1600mah and with the 5 digital servos and I get about 4-5 15 minute flights. I just keep an extra battery with me instead of trying to field charge or run a bigger battery.

>>I see you use a 24oz tank located on the cg. Does this engine have enough suction to draw fuel that far?

Absolutely. It's a non-issue with any of the gas motors, they have diaphragm pumps in the carbs and will draw fuel up hill if they have to. The carbs also aren't sensitive to the height of the fuel tank either, though I still try to locate mine near the centerline of the carb, but I don't worry about it if I can't.

>>How long of a flight do you get on 24oz?

20 minutes easy.

>>Sorry for all the questions, I am stupid about gas but eager to learn.

No problem, I'm glad to help. If you want to write me privately with more questions, feel free.

Bill

I'll weigh in here only because I have the Ultimate ARF and have had DPM experience.
I put mine together last winter and was in the middle of it when I went to the WRAM show and actually met Dave. He was one of the finest gentlemen modelers I have ever encountered. I was explaining to him my experiences with his ARF and he seemed genuinely interested in what I had to say. He also had a prototype of the 330 ARF.
One of the interesting things about the 330 and the Ultimate was that the 330 had the servos in the tail while the Ultimate utilizes a pull-pull. I asked him about that. He mentioned that the 330 was still in development but that the Ultimate greatly benefitted from moving the servos and employing pull-pull. As mentioned above, moving 1oz of servos up to the CG area means 5-6oz's at the nose. By moving 3 servos, push rods, and leads out of the tail of the plane he was able to shave about a pound out of the all up weight!
I am not surprized that he has a work around for moving the servos in the 330. I for one don't have a problem with pull-pull. LOTS of folks do it. One of the other things that Dave had that intrigued me was an odd control horn. It was, as best as I can remember, a crescent-ish moon-ish shaped affair that screwed to the elevator in the normal fashion. The difference was that there was no clevis attached to it. Instead, the end of the cable wrapped over the top of the crescent and attached to the elevator itself. What this meant was that, regardless of the angle of deflection of the elevator, the force was always applied at 90 degrees, thus optimizing torque. Neat idea.

Just so you know that not all is wine and roses, during a flight last summer, my canopy came flying off. Dave attached it to the fuse with 4 screws, two in each side. My guess is that, in the heat of the summer, the canopy distorted a bit, lifting the front of it off the fuse (all the screws were still in and tight when I landed)
allowing enough air underneath. I called Sandy and explained what had happened. From my standpoint it was a design flaw but I had to pay for a new canopy anyhow.

What hinges are you guys using for this plane? Would it be possible to use CA hinges, or should Robart hinges be used?

If Robart hinges are recommended, any methods that work well or are necessary when installing them? ANything specific, or just make a hole and epoxy?

Thanks