Hey guys,

Typical Canadian weather...it's raining so hard here I doubt a guy could even get off the runway...

Hope you guys have a good weekend...please post some flight reports and pictures if ya get a chance...

Thanks,

Sam

Flight Report for the 66" Edge:

First flights were yesterday. Set-up as follows - VF Edge 66" Edge, JR 8103 w/DS811 digital on surfaces and Hitec 225 Metal Gear on Throttle, Engine is Saito 120 FS (more on that in a minute) Set-up is per VF with all recommended throws.
Weight just at 9 lbs.

Finished off the plane Friday night and went to balance Sat Morning. Way too nose heavy! I saw this comming with the 120 up front and mounted all radio gear in the rear-most portion of the interior. Still too heavy, so put the battery on a tiller and pushed back into the fuse as far as I dared. I still had to add lead to achieve balance at 4 3/8" from leading edge. This is the result of the engine of course. It is an older model Saito 120 and is quite a chunck of metal. Decided to take it out anyway since a fellow pilot at the field was going to perform the maiden.

Range check and tuning of the engine were compleated and out to the runway she went. The plane took off just as everyone said it would. I think someone in one thread even said something about majestic. It really was very nice...just a tap on the right rudder was all that was needed to keep her on the centerline. Climbout into a right turn and she was trimmed in half the circut. Jess is a very good pilot and he was done quickly. Put it through some paces and found very quickly that with aggressive elevator, she snaps right. Took it around a few more times and she came in for a nice clean landing. Today I flew her and found that I could really "feel" the extra weight of this plane. It was never flown past 1/2 throttle yesterday or today. I experienced the snap on my third time around. Pulled up to go into a long upline and it just snapped over to the right. First landing was uneventful. I just flew the plane down and landed a little hot. Second landing was further down on the runway and I had a brain-fart. I chopped too soon and made it down to about a foot when it tipped. Speed was too slow to do any real damage, but when it tipped, my left wing-tip hit the grass and turned the plane. When the gear found the grass it was perpindicular to it's intended line and the impact sheared the gear and half the plate out. I was a little surprised to say the least. Granted, this was pilot error, but I was no more than a foot off the ground and speed was to a minimum(part of the problem, I know).

Summary: This is a Wonderful Plane. The folks at VF are top notch. I would not recommend a 120 4-stroke for this plane. Yeah, it fits the firewall, but the speed is simply not needed. By having such a heavy engine up front, I basically inflated the wingloading to inappropriate levels which had a negative affect on handling and probably contributed to the shearing of the landing gear plate. I will say that after getting home and investigating further I found that the plate sheared on every glue seam. IMHO it simply was not adequately glued at the factory, or checked and reinforced by me. The fix is minor and I will be using a more substaitial piece of material. The most important part of the repair is to get rid of the 120 and install an OS 91 four stroke. Between the weight savings on the engine and the removal of lead required to achieve proper balance, I should realize almost 1 pound in weight reduction. This will bring wingloading to a more acceptable level and make the plane fly alot better. This will be a great IMAC manuver plane and teach me a lot. I would get another in a heartbeat!

Thanks to David Cutler, David Moen, Cooter2, Diablo Kid, for your opinions and thoughts when I was looking into this plane. Jess and Jack out at my field were great in getting the first flights on it. I took some good digital pics of it yesterday, but I don't have the software that came with the camera in my puter yet. Will try to post some pics soon. If you are looking into VF products, GET ONE, they are great. Just don't do what I did. They don't need that much power with a wing as efficient as they have.

Cheers,
John

Took out my VF Extra 300S 66" (with Saito 100) today. I changed the prop from a APC 14x6 prop to a APC 16x4W Fun Fly Prop. My engine RPM changed from 10,040 with the 14x6 to 8,700 RPM with the 16x4W.

The prop performed awesome! Tons of power. The only thing that scared me was a high pitch sound coming from the prop at full throttle. I first thought it was flutter, but the guys at the field confirmed that it was only prop noise.

Very happy with this prop and engine, and I wouldn't change anything about this plane.

Just my two cents.

Ok, it wasn't just me the last time I flew my 66 Extra, this "SNAP" thing you are talking about I sort of had the same thing happen to me....I wasn't really sure what it was, could someone go into a little detail of what causes it ???

This is how I noticed it...I was flying nice and level, then I went into a pretty steep climb, then all of a sudden the plane's nose dropped and fell off to the right...

Is this the same thing guys ???....It wasn't from stalling...I had more than enough power on...it kinda scared me because I wasn't expecting it....

Weather here has been to rainy too fly...

Any in put would be great..

Thanks in advance..

Sam

Hay Sam what power plant you using? did you check lateral balance?

Dreamer: Do you think the weight reduction will fix the snap problem?

Anybody: has anyone tried flaperons on this bird? would it help or hinder the low speed snap issue?


Miloh.

I'm using an OS .91 brand new...with a bisson pitts muffler...

so is thing I'm experiencing is it what you guys call "Snap" ???

Sam

John,

Too bad about your crash! I had the same thing happen to me (twice). I used teh original LG plate as a template and cut another. Like the original one, I made the main plate out of two pieces of lite-ply laminated together. I backed this up with a piece of birch ply that funs forward from the wing saddle about 1/2 the length of the LG plate. I then mounted the gear with wing bolts threaded right into the new, thicker LG plate. I then fibre-glassed LG plate where it joins the other structural members. This all did not add a bunch of weight, and if anything happens the gear will break off. I questioned VF about these glue joints, they said that it was made this way on purpose.

Also, as a precaution, you can add some hard balsa "wedges" to the fuse sides just aft of the wings trailing edges. In the event you have another wingtip-first landing hard enough to break the wing bolts, this will keep the wing from slicing off the aft section of the fuse floor as mine did.

Sam, the "snap" you have experienced could have been caused by having your air-speed too low. The Extra dos not like to putt along at low speed too much, in my experience. If you are going to make a hard pull to vertical, make sure you have a little more speed in hand before making your elevator input.

Weather is OK for flying up here in the interior, unfortunatley, under the influence of too much coffee this morning I ripped apart a bathroom, now I have to re-assemble!

I don't know about the snap you guys are experiencing. The only thing I get out of mine, is a roll to the right, if I give it full up elevator, especially at wide open throttle. And that is with my dual rate at high. I usually leave that control on low rate, and have no problems. I'd have to put a ruler on it, but I would guess my elevator low rate throw to be around 1/2-3/4 inch. Having a radio with dual rates, I usually try to set up my linkage on any surface to where I can get all that is physically possible on high rate, and then I adjust the low rate setting to where I like it. Being an old fart, I like to be able to flip the rate switch every once in awhile, to get the old heart pumping! Ha!

I did the same thing breaking off the landing gear, I didn't make the runway in a deadstick. I did some work on it to make it stronger for next time, but it sure broke easily. It was really a soft landing in tall grass. I just have a ST 75 on it so it's not that nose heavy. A guy at the field recommended using nylon bolts so it will shear them off instead of breaking everything off, I might do that just in case. Other than that I like it, this thing is easier to land than my trainer.

David,

You must have been reading my mind. Since the whole plate is off now, I plan to use 1 piece of 1/4" or 3/8" ply for the plate. Before I do that though, I will add tri-stock in the places I couldn't get to properly earlier. Then build a shelf out of tri-stock and put the plate back in. I will be using larger nylon bolts (probably wing bolts) and tap and thread the plate. While I was at it tonight, I got to looking at the firewall. Pretty thin if you ask me...3/16". This will get a nice coat of 60 minute epoxy all around front and back with all of the covering removed. Hopefully it will harden out good. Just paranoid I guess. The whole fix should not take more that a couple of hours and I'll be ready to go. I pick up a 91 on wed or thursday, so I'll be back to the field no problem for the weekend.

It's funny, the "crash" was more like falling off a log. I mean I was THAT low and slow. It was 100% my fault. This plane is designed to land with some air moving over the wings and I just didn't do it. Still surprised at the plate though.

Sam,

I am not an aeronautical engineer, but what you and I experienced were similar in that we both "snapped". My nose did not drop because I input opposite rudder and softened up the line. It was not violent just evident. In your case I wonder if you may have throttled back in your surprise, allowing the plane to continue until one of the wings stalled and the nose dropped? I think David covered it though. Keep in mind, many sport planes will do this. What accentuates the snap is weight....which affects the wingloading. My plane admittedly is too heavy so the wing loading was higher making it more prone to this. Even with a lighter engine and less load on the wing, it will still occur if too violent stick action is used. I would suggest pulling up into your vertical lines smooth and graduating to a steeper angle until you find where it happens. Then 1. you will know the flight envelope and 2. you can anticipate when it will happen and correct with a little opposite rudder and aileron.

Miloh,

As stated above, it was not violent just there. I think the weight issue was a major contributing problem and a reduction will correct most of the problem. One guy out at the field has a 35% Carden Edge and his will snap if he gets too violent too. So yeah, I think things will be fine once I get the other engine on. I didn't buy this plane to hover and torque roll......just work on the IMAC sequences and become a better pilot. It's gonna be GREAT for that. Knife edges will improve greatly I'm sure.

I will keep everybody posted as the next set of flights develop.

John

Flaperons..................anybody?????



Miloh.

Hi John,

Glad to hear the maiden flight was successful.

The snap mentioned here happens mainly because the two wings start to stall at different times, and that causes the roll as the snap builds.

The main cause of a wing stalling in these conditions is there is too much incidence for the given airspeed, which makes the flow break away from the wing too early, thus starting the wing stalling. This would explain the fact that a snap is encouraged by extra weight, as the wing has to fly at a greater incidence to counteract the extra weight.

However, I reckon you can completely remove any tendency to snap with the Edge by reducing the elevator throw. The model is incredibly pitch sensitive anyway, so a reduction in the elevator throw isn't going to stop you getting a pretty good loop radius without a snap beginning.

One more point, if I may. If you still are nose heavy, that'll make the approach to landing much steeper and faster, and therefore a bit more difficult to flare. My first problems with this model came from the fact that the wing is very efficient and it floats more than I expected, so I went the whole length of the runway, trying to get down, on my first landing!

Only now, after a dozen flights, have I managed to get the speed and descent right for a smooth, spot landing.

Good luck!

-David C.

David Cutler:

In true scale the 300 has a slight sweep on the leading edge of the wing and the edge 540 has a straight leading edge. I can't tell from the pictures if this is so with the VF models. have you seen or flown the 300?? if so will the 300 be a floater as well.
Are the wings scale or are they larger and more efficent than full scale version?
My last 300s was the GP .60 size and it was by no means a floater it was a brick!! same size WS and weight as the VF but it stalled on a slow speed turn at about 75 to 100 feet and went in nose first!! obliterated!!! just wondering if my new bird is going to be this way too.

Miloh.

Hi Miloh,

Yes, it's true the Edge has a straight leading edge when the Extra doesn't. I reckon that's a big factor in an aircraft snapping, and that thought is backed up if you consider a CAP (which has a bigger sweep, and is a snappier plane) and a Giles (which has an even greater sweep, and is a snapping monster!).

Also, generally speaking, the thicker the wing, the slower is the stall speed, and Edges have fairly thin wings. Having said this, I am still amazed at how slow the VF Edge will fly before it starts to stall. It might be something to do with the solid surface of the wing keeping its aerofoil shape I suppose.

I have Extras as well, (Graupner and GP) and they do tend to snap more. I haven't yet built my VF 58" Extra, so I have that to look forward to!

David C.

I finally got my Saito FA-100GK ordered and the slimline pitts style muffler from hobbyhorse.com (If anyone's from europe searching for a US supplier of Saito that'll post over to you - this is them!) They also are a distributor for slimline.

What prop size should i use for this plane for normal flight and for learning 3D flying?
Should i use a different prop for running in the engine?

Attempt to post pics I mentioned

Underside of wings

Is the checkerboard on the wings stock?

Dash with Aresti and local Nav chart

Squint Scale

Last one

Outside

ok gang, I flew mine yesterday and it was fun as usual. Im pretty sure im gonna retire it now. It has served well all season and and I am pleased with it.


It has been bloodied and bruised but refuses to die, great plane. She will now sit idle as a hanger queen I am thinking of getting the 66" Edge but will wait until i get the Saito 100


matt

David,

No, the checkers are not stock. Here's what I did.

Went to a local sign shop and brought a wing panel with me. Told him what I wanted to do. My original plan was to have him cut 2" squares for me and I would place them. He told me I would be crazy to attempt THAT and suggested that I allow him to put them on a carrier sheet. I followed his advice and he put the carrier sheet on in about 10 seconds. Got home, used the wing as a pattern and cut the sheets. Then, lightly mist the wing and sheet (minus the backing) with windex. Lay it up and position. Use a bondo spatula or an old credit card to squeege out the excess windex. Trim edges and you are done. Total time 1 hr. Total investment $20 with enough left over to do the underside of the stab at a later date.

Really helps with visibility.

Cheers,
John

I have to emphasize that this is a very nice looking aircraft and the performance is great. I just made it a little too heavy with the engine choice I made. That will be fixed soon and all will be well.

John

What engine are you gonna put in it scale dreamer?

Hay john does that dash come with the kit?? also how much does that saito weigh



Miloh.