Looks like we got our request to close the drawn out thread . Unfortunantly it was right before I got a couple of people agreeing with me about flapperons. Lets not jam up the beginners room with technical stuff. Instead click this link and read.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/Flap...1340553/tm.htm

The guy that anwsers this is a very well respected name in the profile/funfly/3D world. If you mention the word funfly on RCU then this guys name is sure to follow.

Just read the other thread, and no where did I see anyone agree with your statement about "Flaperons" including an elevator mix.

As a 3D flyer, here's what he said, So, "Flaperons" don't include elevators. And you're right. Let's not continue to debate.
Dennis-

Ummm, that was Chuck's quote which is actually correct.

The problem is in the 3d people shortening it to just 'flaperons' instead of using a proper term and gerally confusing everyone without backing up their explanation.

Chuck gave a good description of 'coupled flaperons' and 'coupled spoilerons'.....

Smile

So you're arguing about the technical aspects of slang and shorthand? That's pointless. Just spell it out if you want to be technical--otherwise you're just playing word games.

Are you serious? I'm already all technical'd out here.... If you bothered to read any of my posts you'll realize that I've supplied dictionary definitions, links to diagrams of actual full-scale aircraft and last but not least quotes from a specific well known 3D pilot.
You had come up with nothing, not even a decent explanation. Finally Chuck came to the rescue and provided an explanation that tied together the two sides of the story. I.E. That my previous resource was correct and that there is a group of people that have taken an existing term and misused it because they are too lazy to describe what they are doing properly....

Incedentally, I don't have any heavy warbirds and trainers generally don't need flaps. My only flap equipped plane is a Funtana which I have programmed to have the elevators move in the same direction as the flaps/spoilers.

As a result of this discussion, I am in a position to be able to tell a newcomer that I have 'coupled spoilerons' and describe exactly what they are used for. You however, will no doubt continue to misinform fellow flyers that you are just using flaperons....

Hi all... I think I thought of an analogy everyone would understand...

Flaperons are a mix that makes ailerons behave like flaps... if we combine elevator into the mix, then we can still call them flapperons..... right ???? ;-)

Gliders are aircraft that are not powered.... If we combine an engine with the glider we can still call it a glider .... right ???

Although airplanes behave like gliders when their engine stops, it is still a lazy, misleading, and technically poor to call a plane a glider when it's engine is running.

So, 3D flyers ARE using flapperons mixed with elevator often.... whoopeee! But, to take a well defined term, pervert it to be something else, and then have the audacity to tell the rest of the world that they are wrong!!!!! That's outrageous!

To all the 3D flyers out there, there are some people in the beginner's forum that are giving you a bad name! Did you hear me? Makes it easy to generalise that 3D Flyers are arrogant, lazy, and should be relegated to outlaw fields doing unnatural things with their planes ......

When people start mis-using words then [link=http://cgi.peak.org/~jeremy/searchFlick.cgi?word=fanny]very wierd things can happen[/link].

Never know what you might be telling people.

gus ....

P.S. This post is mostly meant in jest, but the point is serious.

Moderator,
please kill this thread as this subject has been beaten to death and needs to be buried the point has been made as to what is right and wrong. so please lets end this silly arguing and get back to helping those here in the BEGINNERS FORUM, AND NOT make this THE ARGUING FORUM!!!!!!!! sorry guys but its just getting out of hand

Yup, I'd agree with that. Apparantly, it was killed once and two more threads sprang up...

Gus, thanks for lightening the mood; incedentally, do you speak English or American up there.....

Smile again

Moderators ... please don;t close this thread... I am having fun here at least!

Southern Touch .... You ask me where I feel that you are giving 3D people a bad name....

You have so far said:
This is patently arrogant.
Also.... rude:
I am in the beginners forum, have flown for a year ... am I an old-timer.....?
And finally, contradictory:
The above is contradictory because:You say the text-book definition agrees with what us old-timers have said all along ...
Then you say that you have re-defined it in the 3D world.... but, your only substantial evidence, which you support absolutely (and I agree with ...) where Chuck says:
So, in Chuck's honourable opinion, the "definition" is "coupled Flapperons", which is abbreviated to "flapperons". So, you are not RE-DEFINING flapperons, you are simply saving some oxygen by not describing what you actually are accomplishing.

Finally, I did say that my post was mostly in jest... specifically because people over-react. I am a level-headed person (at least until I am inverted 10' off the deck), and enjoy debates as much as the rest.

So, on that note, you said:

Well, if the other thread had not been closed, I am sure I cold have found something .....
...silly me, it was two paragraphs up in your post ....

On a lighther note, I love being challenged, I never take things personally (not on the internet anyway), and really enjoy a good debate. You DID resort to childish name calling (old timer), and I have quoted where I think you (personally) have given a bad name to 3D.

I have met many 3D folk, and they ALL are great people (as you are as well, I am sure), and I am pretty keen on getting myself as competent at 3D as them. Give me some time...

TiggerNiva...
I speak English.... Men don't have one! I am an immigrant though.

Season's greatings, God bless...

gus

Smiling one last time

*finds something better to do*

There's elevator-flap mixing, and there's using your ailerons as flaps (flaperons). Those are seperate and distinct mixes, done for seperate and distinct reasons. If you don't feel comfortable specifying what you're doing, don't expect people to automatically understand what you mean. What's wrong with calling what it is, rather than trying to misuse another term? If a fellow is asking about mixing his elevator to his flaps and you start talking about flaperons you'll look like an idiot (and rightly so!).

I am going to side with CafeenMan from now on out about this topic. I have tried to make my point and you guys just dont understand. Its hopeless to argue anymore about it b/c Im not gonna change your point of view and your not going to change my point of view. I know I started this thread after the other one was closed (b/c I wanted to bring in the point that Chuck made). I think its time we do away with this thread.

Well, I have had fun...

I can live in hope that you will come around to "our" point of view.

For what it's worth, you can click "edit" on your first post, and then just delete the post which will delete the whole thread.

But, Even though I am right, you probably won't believe me ....

gus

still smiling but through my teeth.

Why do people keep wanting to kill a thread that is generating so much interest and response? If you don't like it, aren't there at least 100 other topics you can spend time looking at? For me it's always interesting to see this side of human nature come out in people. What we've been having is almost a "test tube" religious debate between the fundamentalists and some new fangled cult. This topic has provided me, and the guys at the local RC club with a lot of laughs.Thanks for your steadfast support LAYNE, you are a genuine PITBULL when you take a stand. To all the guys who took the time to dig up every literal translation that has ever been printed about FLAPERON, I thank you and hope that none of you plan on coming over to burn down my house. CHUCK AUGER, leave it to a TEXAN to explain with some very chosen words the reason behind the evolution of the term.

Maybe if I can change tack completely....

Definitions are a good thing. Everyone knows what an inch is, and if they don't, then can get all metric about it and see that the SI has defined a Meter to be some fixed length, a centimeter to be 1/100 of a meter, and that an Inch is the same as 2.5something centimeters. Easy... We all can relate to an inch based on the definition of a meter.

RC hobbyists have very few true definitions... but some very concise terminology instead. A TX is not defined, but we all know what a TX is. People don't really know it, but RX's are also TX's (They transmit a signal to every servo ... even though it is not through "Radio" waves...). A more accurate name for the receiver would be "transducer". Anyway, I digress.

Flapperons is the term that was coined by people who used surfaces that are intended as Ailerons to be used part-time as flaps. Flapperons was a useful, unambiguous, and descriptive name. The ideal candidate for terminology.

Now, "flapperon" is being used to describe a significant modification to the use of the original mechanism involved. It is no longer a Flapperon when it has Elevators as part of the definition. It looses it's descriptive, and unambiguous nature, and thus it looses it's usefulness.

To give another analogy... the telephone. Telephone derives from the greek origin of "Te-le" which means "afar", and "phone" or phonic - meaning sound or voice. Telephone is a good example of a useful, descriptive, and unambiguous term. Now, along comes wireless technology... half the 1st world has a Cellular Telephone. Cellular Telephone is a very good descriptive, unambiguous name. The telephone works in Cells of reception. There is a BIG difference (socially) between a Cellular Telephone and a Telephone. People, being people, have made the names more concise to be more effective at communication, so, the Telephone has been abbreviated to just "phone", and, the Cellular Telephone has become a "Cellphone". Now, in a given context (yuppies in a bar), it has also been abbreviated to just "phone". BUT, although Cellphones are also telephones, the word "phone" does not DEFINE a cellphone. If you say "I have a Phone" then people have to contextualise the conversation... If you are sitting at a desk, they will assume that you have a normal phone. If you are in a pub, they will assume you have a Cellphone (unless it was the barman, in which case, it may or may not be the phone on the wall)..... sooo... the bottom line is that in the 3D circles (in the pub), you can talk about Flapperons to your hearts content, and people know that you actually mean "flapperons coupled with elevator in a special way". But, if you are in most other environments, people will fall back on the normal "definition" and assume that it is just ailerons as flaps, and any further "coupling" would have to be elaborated.

Bottom line.... Flapperons in any context means ailerons behaving like flaps. Also, in the 3D context, it may or may not mean that there is an Elevator mix with it.

Using it one way is absolute, and can be considered as close to a "definition" as you get. Using it in the "coupled with elevators" context opens up ambiguity.

So, you can not "redefine" flapperon any more than you can re-define telephone. No matter how much elevator you add, it will always be more correct to say "Flapperons coupled with elevator" than it will be to say just "Flapperons". There is nothing stopping you from making a new, more descriptive, useful, and unambiguous word for your new "toys". That is where words like "sailplane" (purpose built gliders) come from.

Go and be a pioneer of a new word that is useful, instead of trying (unsuccessfully) to recycle an old word as a definitive name for something else. There will be growling and gnashing of teeth all around if you continue to pollute the few "definitions" we do have!

All said lightheartedly...

gus

I think the expression you are looking for is "making a term meaningless."

Welp, now for my 2 cents, I'll prolly have change comming back

I think for most of us newbies, I think posts like these are really really informative, not only
in a debate level, but really informative.

ex.1 - Real life issues in the hobby
ex.2 - The wealth of information
ex.3 - Different sides of the coin or for better terminology(different points of view)
ex.4 - Facts and opinions
ex.5 - Likes, Dislikes
ex.6 - Best or the worst
ect..ect..ect..

I think as long as no one is getting upset or fighting at a good debate or being rude,name calling ect..
then let the opinions go on.
I prolly would of called it flapevons, but here again difference of opinion. I know its prolly not right, but life is a learning process.

Life is too short, enjoy it while ya got it.

Thanks,
Mark

Mark - Flapevons would actually be more correct. There are only two people claiming that flaperons include elevator and thus far neither one of them has produced even the first piece of evidence to back it up even though they've been asked many times.

The lesson here is be careful who you listen to.

Still trying to smile about all of this. But you are pushin it [>:]

If you would like to apply for the position of CafeenMan's Arch Nemesis, then please send your resume to our Resource Management Dept and we will schedule you for an interview.

Southern_touch, relax dude its just conversation